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My friend was telling me about a game he played in a tournament with his IG, and I wanted to share it with the dakka foums to see what you all think.
This is how the game went.

Setup
He was playing 'Mech IG. His opponent was a Nob Biker army.
The mission was pitched battle / capture and control.
The biker army chose to deploy all his units in reserve.
The ork player won the rolloff for first turn, and passed it to the IG player.

Turn One
The IG player lined his tanks (russ and chimeras) as close to the ork side as possible.
The IG player moved all his tanks up at full speed (12" a turn).

Turn Two
The IG player moved all his tanks up at full speed (12" a turn).
The IG player has crossed 24" thus far, and is only 12" from the ork board edge.

As the IG player had 2 Officer of the Fleets, reducing the reserve rolls of the Ork player by 2.
The ork player failed to roll any 6s on his reserve rolls, and no troops came on on bottom of 2.

Turn Three
On turn 3, the IG player moved his tanks up the final 12" and deployed his troops out.
He ran his troops to form a congo-line formation across the ENTIRE DEPLOYMENT ZONE of the Ork player.

The Ork player could not put any models on the board, as they were all within 1" of an IG model.
The Ork player could not assault any of the IG with his Nob Bikers, as they were not on the board for the assault phase.
IG won as he held one objective ( The one near Ork tableedge ) and the other was unclaimed.

The Burning Question
Now, was this a legal tactic, or was there rules-abusing here?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/254138.page

Same Question.

TL;DR It's both Legal and not Legal because the rules do not have any answer for what happens if a model cannot arrive from reserve due to other models.

It might be rules-abusing, but it's purely legal. You obviously cannot move through guardsmen, so the Ork player can't come on. Regardless of how you play it (destroyed, delayed, whatever) Break No Rule prevents the nobz from coming in.

@Gwar: It's legal to move all of your units against a table edge, so I don't see how you could claim that this tactic is not legal. The way they played the game (i.e. delaying or destroying the hampered nobz) may have been illegal (we can't know), but the actual placement of the IG is legal based solely on normal movement and placement rules.

Edit: Gwar, I understand your point (as to dubious legality), but doesn't Break No Rule ensure that however you play it, the Orks don't come on the board? (simply due to normal movement restrictions?)

ajfirecracker wrote:@Gwar: It's legal to move all of your units against a table edge, so I don't see how you could claim that this tactic is not legal. The way they played the game (i.e. delaying or destroying the hampered nobz) may have been illegal (we can't know), but the actual placement of the IG is legal based solely on normal movement and placement rules.

What i mean is that there are no rules for what happens to the models that cannot come on, which is why i said it is of dubious "legality"

Also rule of thumb for when this tactic comes up... In any thing other then a tournament, the personal doing it need thump on the head as you no longer get a game and the whole point of 40k is to play a game.

As Gwar points out, we really dont know what should happen to the army in reserve .... but its not going to be anything helpful if thw entire army is in reserve and has no means of deepstriking/ moving over the blockers. Even if the reserves just sit there until a later turn its not going to matter if the board remains blocked.

Its a very good reason to not remain in reserve. There are too many fast armies that can seal the table edge, or at least enough of it to hamstring the reserve army. IG are probably the worst in this regard because they have plenty of fast units and they also have the officer of the fleet. With scout moves a vendetta force could seal a chunk of the line on the first turn.

Staying in reserve is a very sharp tactic that shuts down some opposing armies, dont be too surprised that there can be serious drawbacks.


Sliggoth

This tactic seem legal, even though it will get you bonked and referred to as TFG. It seems to require/suggest the following

* It will result in a draw on annihilation missions as the reserved army is not destroyed.
* Is it can be accomplished by multiple armies -- bike armies, KoS, MechDar, IG
* It requires the reserved army with all forces in reserve.
* It requires that the reserved army has no deep strike capabilities.
* It requires that the reserved army cannot ignore intervening models (jump infantry, jet bikes, skimmers)
* It requires that the reserved army does not have tanks -- to tank shot their way onto the board.

Did I miss anything?

I think you've covered it (except the last part). It's legal to block the board edges. It's not going to make you any friends. And if the other army can outflank or Deepstrike, you're in trouble.

What's not clear, is if you can Tank Shock a vehicle from off-bard, and that has had several long debates on dakka too. And I say it's not clear because the rules do not specifically address the issue. The are some pretty valid pro- and con- points to the rules issue.

Tri wrote:Also rule of thumb for when this tactic comes up... In any thing other then a tournament, the personal doing it need thump on the head as you no longer get a game and the whole point of 40k is to play a game.

To be fair, though, his opponent really should not have held his army in reserves given what was in the IG list.

I don't personally think it is any more lame than killing embarked troops by denying them a place to disembark when assaulting. If someone can actually pull this off on you, chances are you deserved it.

There is a guy at my FLGS that plays Ravenguard and routinely uses this tactic. What he does is infiltrate 10 SS/TH termies against the opponent board edge. Also he infiltrates a 10 man scout squad on the edge. It basically works where he can cover almost 70 inches of the opponents edge. The tactic works great if the other guy has no infiltrators, but it doesn't work if he does. All in all I would consider this a great tactic to win at all costs, but in a RTT I would give no sportsmanship for it.

daedalus wrote:I don't personally think it is any more lame than killing embarked troops by denying them a place to disembark when assaulting. If someone can actually pull this off on you, chances are you deserved it.

A unit on a transport that's not the end of a game. Where as blocking him from coming on is a case of ... Game Over, wasn't that was fun.

Serves the person right for having a 1 dimensional army of just nob bikers. Exploitative git makes huge tactical error - awww diddums.

Yes, it is entirely legal to blcok the board edge: a simple assesment of "lots of tanks + astropaths (assuming not closed list = BAD time for reserves" means that the nob biker player got out played. they won't make the same mistake next time - or maybe play a less stupid list and so easily countered list?

Yeah, but think of what it would take to be able to do that.. A "normal" army deployment with most of the stuff on the table wouldn't have that issue. You would almost have to do it in DoW, which means that the enemy still has a few units on the board starting out. You would also have to completely rush everything you could to that edge of the board as fast as possible, which sort of rules out being able to shoot nearly as much, because you'll be zooming full tilt to get there before you opponent deploys. Even then, this strategy is defeated by deep strikers and outflanking. I would not be incredibly worried about it in a regular game. For example, if you have 3 valks with 12 guys, thats 36 guys. That's just enough to get across the long end of the table, but you'd still need time to spread them out and deploy. I can't see doing it in less than 2-3 turns, and well, if you're keeping all your stuff off the table that long until IG is close enough to bike rush, your sportsmanship is just as lacking.

If the opponent somehow manages to go straight forward with his entire army for 3 turns without you getting any units onto the board, and block off your entire edge, I'd say that its tough luck and the blocker wins. If you have tanks its debatable that you can tank shock onto the board, but death or glory would stop you off table. Basically, don't deploy entirely in reserve and then get very unlucky or you lose.

daedalus wrote:Yeah, but think of what it would take to be able to do that.. A "normal" army deployment with most of the stuff on the table wouldn't have that issue. You would almost have to do it in DoW, which means that the enemy still has a few units on the board starting out. .

The criteria to pull this off means that the reserved opponent has NO models on the board, and everything is in reserve. If even one unit is not in reserve, the odds of that tactic succeeding plummet.

Many armies can pull it off. Take a marine biker army. Even if they deploy normally -- spread through their deployment zone -- they could turbo-boost on turns 1 and 2, giving them a total of 48" before the reserved player even make make a roll to deploy. Given the size of bikes, it would be easy to congo-line across the table edge.

Another example would be a KoS army. Truuks move 18" a turn, so with 2 turns of rushing, plus 2" deployment and running, its quite feasable to cover the board edge. Six truuks can drop off 72 orks, which is enough to cover a table edge.

Another example would be Mech Eldar. Moving flat out at 24" gives your skimmers a great opportunity to cover the board and deploy in 2 turns. This would be the hardest to pull off, as Mech Eldar are not known for the amount of bodies they field.

And of course, there is always IG. Chimera rush, or air calv.

I'm sure that other armies can pull it off, those are just 3 that come to mind.

labmouse42 wrote:Another example would be Mech Eldar. Moving flat out at 24" gives your skimmers a great opportunity to cover the board and deploy in 2 turns.

Moving 24 Inches is for the Lowly mon-keigh. Eldar can Just Slap a Set of Star Engines on and move 36" Turn 1, 12" turn 2 then disembark their cargo

Gwar! wrote:Moving 24 Inches is for the Lowly mon-keigh. Eldar can Just Slap a Set of Star Engines on and move 36" Turn 1, 12" turn 2 then disembark their cargo

Zzzzzzzzzoooooooooooomm!!!

ajfirecracker wrote:Edit: Gwar, I understand your point (as to dubious legality), but doesn't Break No Rule ensure that however you play it, the Orks don't come on the board? (simply due to normal movement restrictions?)

The problem is that still breaks a rule, since Reserves who pass their Reserves roll have to move on. There is simply no way to resolve this that doesn't break a rule.

The move is entirely legal. The Ork player simply did not strategize correctly. If he would have used a tank in his list I believe he could have rammed himself onto the bored and hoped to break through the line. With infantry models you can always tank shock your way onto the bored - a line of tanks is another thing entirely. I'm not sure if this has been discussed about ramming yourself onto the bored.

Also, would you not be able to move yourself through a large enough space for a single model of a unit (1" hole) as long as you don't end your turn 1" from a model? Another point is could you assault your way onto the bored and try to take out one of the tanks lining the bored? I'm not really sure on either of these points. I'll try to look up some references and see if this is legal or not in the rulebook.

[edit] The last post answered my question about not being able to assault your way on but what about ramming your way on?

insaniak wrote:

ajfirecracker wrote:Edit: Gwar, I understand your point (as to dubious legality), but doesn't Break No Rule ensure that however you play it, the Orks don't come on the board? (simply due to normal movement restrictions?)

The problem is that still breaks a rule, since Reserves who pass their Reserves roll have to move on. There is simply no way to resolve this that doesn't break a rule.

Lies. A Brick in a Pillow Case works wonders!

rogueeyes wrote:Also, would you not be able to move yourself through a large enough space for a single model of a unit (1" hole) as long as you don't end your turn 1" from a model?

Nope. The rule prohibits moving within 1" of an enemy model at any point during your move, not simply at the end of it.

rogueeyes wrote:The move is entirely legal. The Ork player simply did not strategize correctly.

It's legal, but it breaks the game, so should be either avoided or house ruled before the game begins as to what will happen in this situation.

If he would have used a tank in his list I believe he could have rammed himself onto the bored and hoped to break through the line. With infantry models you can always tank shock your way onto the bored - a line of tanks is another thing entirely. I'm not sure if this has been discussed about ramming yourself onto the bored.

There has been considerable debate as to whether tank shocking from off the board is legal. Whether or not you think it is, it's another of those things that should be cleared up pre-game if you're keeping vehicles in Reserve.

Also, would you not be able to move yourself through a large enough space for a single model of a unit (1" hole) as long as you don't end your turn 1" from a model?

You can't move within 1" of an enemy model, except in the Assault phase. So no, you would need a 3" hole for most models to move through.

Another point is could you assault your way onto the bored and try to take out one of the tanks lining the bored?

Reserves move on in the movement phase. They can't be held back, so should be already on the table by the time you get to the Assault phase.

So here's a question. Say you have no vehicles to theoretically rush the line, but you have plenty of melee troops wanting to come in.

Doesn't the rule say that they're considered to be at the edge of the board for the purposes of movement? Now sure, they can't MOVE on, but can they Assault on?

You say you have to measure for assault right? Yeah--okay, but isn't that exactly the same for measuring movement? From model to end-point for movement in this case is from board edge to end point. If you COULD (i.e. theoretical) assault in wouldn't it be the same i.e. board-edge to model being assaulted.

The Dragon wrote:Now sure, they can't MOVE on, but can they Assault on?

No, because you don't get as far as the Assault phase... the game already came to a crashing halt in your Movement phase, when you got stuck in the 'They must move on / They can't move on' logic loop.


You could certainly House Rule it that they could just wait off the board and assault on in the assault phase, though.

well, the problem becomes whether your assaulting troops count if they stay off the board. Because they're stopped to assault the border guard.

fluff wise it makes no sense.

insaniak wrote:

The Dragon wrote:Now sure, they can't MOVE on, but can they Assault on?

No, because you don't get as far as the Assault phase... the game already came to a crashing halt in your Movement phase, when you got stuck in the 'They must move on / They can't move on' logic loop.


You could certainly House Rule it that they could just wait off the board and assault on in the assault phase, though.

I mean I kind of figured it would have to be like that. The reason I think it would be semi-fair- is of course because technically they ARE supposed to be on and there is a mention of 'where' they are (at the table edge). Of course, I'm also assuming there's space for the models to actually get onto the table in i.e. the 2" in between the models in the blocking formation.

If there was not even that space... then I really don't think you could assault on ever, even being generous.

I have actually seen this done on Dawn of War with Nob bikers.

He just boosted his entire army and lined the models up sideways.

Its not at all hard for IG to do, it just takes a list built to do it. Great for winning a bet tho, as an IG player proved at the FLGS. Want to have the footprint of the valk agreed upon before hand, but a wave of valks can easily scout move 24", move another 12" and deploy a layer of squads on the opposite table edge on the first turn. Used large flying stands to proxy the valks and a pile of guardsmen, really didnt take that many to wall off the table. We started to try to figure out the minimum number needed but people wanted to actually play, and the point had been made.

It is so seldom useful in real play that its not that big of a deal. But fun when people say "thats impossible".



Sliggoth

I think its a viable tactic. If your army has no outflankers, no deepstrikers, nothing with wings or a jetbike to get over enemy lines, tough luck for you pal. Not to mention if you are foolish enough to put every model in reserve then you deserve to pay the consequence. Its a crappy way of saying "Ha ha I got 2nd turn and I get to fire at you first." And that is the risk you run trying to have your cake and eat it to. It burned the ork player. If the army is so unmeanuverable it cant figure a way onto one edge of a 6' x 4' table then Im sorry I think it is a well deserved loss. I agree though this will not make you any friends.