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I'm thinking about building a new army, and leaving my necrons to rust for a while, but journeying into the realm of normal vehicles has given me a few problems. I've solved most of them, but I was wondering about this one:

Can I choose to not fire multiple weapons even if I have access to them? For example, I'd rather just shoot the demolisher cannon on my Leman Russ against a squad of MEQ rather than the cannon and three heavy bolters, as the squad being hit could potentially allocate the bolter hits and cannon shots to lose less models from the cannon wounds. RaW to back it up if you can please; I wasn't able to find it.

Kitzz wrote:I'm thinking about building a new army, and leaving my necrons to rust for a while, but journeying into the realm of normal vehicles has given me a few problems. I've solved most of them, but I was wondering about this one:

Can I choose to not fire multiple weapons even if I have access to them? For example, I'd rather just shoot the demolisher cannon on my Leman Russ against a squad of MEQ rather than the cannon and three heavy bolters, as the squad being hit could potentially allocate the bolter hits and cannon shots to lose less models from the cannon wounds. RaW to back it up if you can please; I wasn't able to find it.

Yes, you can. I'm gonna look deeper actually... this is a little worrying lol.

Normally a vehicle cannot fire an Ordnance weapon while firing its other weapons. I believe the Lumbering Behemoth rule allows any turret weapon, including Ordnance weapon, to fire in addition to any other weapons that the Leman Russ may be permitted to depending on its speed.

But you don't have to fire weapons if you don't want to. You can fire less than the full complement of available weapons.

The requirement is that if a weapon is fired, you must use all of its shots, i.e. a Heavy 3 weapon must fire 3 times, one may not elect to have it fire only one or two shots.

I'm certain there's a rule allowing units to allow fewer than all models to fire, I would think that either there's a similar rule for vehicles, or you can simply move the vehicle around a bit, or, since you're not explicitly required to fire all weapons, you just fire some weapons.

There is a rule saying:
"A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers", but not Certain Weapons.

Vehicles state:
"Vehicles that remained stationary may fire all of their weapons" (i.e May Fire all their weapons or Not Fire at all as per Page 16)
"Vehicles that moved at combat speed may fire a
single weapon (and its defensive weapons)" (i.e 1+D or not at all)
etc etc.

Of Course I am most likely missing something, but on first glance it seems that vehicles must always fire as many weapons as possible.

Ignore

Different weapons on a vehicle are treated as separate models for the purposes of line of sight, range, and cover saves, p.58.

According to the normal shooting rules regarding "Which Models Can Fire", a player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers, although this must be declared before checking range, p.16.

For the Leman Russ, couldn't you shoot the Demolisher cannon normally (without the lumbering rule) and thereby avoid firing the defensive weapons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglitch, it doesn't quite say to treat them as separate models for all purposes. It says to measure independently, and to treat them as separate models for cover saves.

Nurglitch wrote:Different weapons on a vehicle are treated as separate models for the purposes of line of sight, range, and cover saves, p.58.

Ah, I thought I was Missing something.

ajfirecracker:

I do believe that I pointed out which cases require that weapons count as separate models...

Since, as a player, you do not have to fire with certain models if you prefer not to, then you just have to declare which weapons are firing prior to measuring range.

The case of treating weapons as models where range is concerned is what generalizes the option not to fire with certain models in normal units to the option not to with certain weapons in vehicle units.

No, nurglitch. Per p. 58 they are only treated as separate models for purposes of cover saves. Otherwise you measure them separately, but with no special instruction to treat them as separate models.

And only then if some weapons would give cover and some would not.

ajfirecracker:

Yes:

Vehicle Weapons & Line of Sight, Vehicles, Rulebook, p.58 wrote:Just like infantry, vehicles need to be able to draw a line of sight to their targets in order to shoot at them. When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them against the target and then trace the line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel, to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models. If the target unit happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle's weapons, then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing model in a normal unit.

Line of sight is clearly treated on a per weapon basis, just as line of sight is normally treated on a per model basis. Likewise with cover. Range is not, so on closer inspection I should amend my statements to be that line of sight is what defines weapons as separate models.

This correction should make it clearer that a player may choose not to shoot with certain weapons on a vehicle if he prefer, and must declare this prior to checking range.

No, nurglitch. No mention of treating it as models is mentioned except for cover saves. While the method is similar to treating each weapon as a separate model, it is not the same because it does not say so.

ajfirecracker:

Yes, because cover is defined by line of sight. Likewise the rules say so because the method for determining line of sight and cover is the same, substituting weapons for model.

Nurglitch, even if that were the case, the rule about treating the weapons as models only applies when cover saves could be taken against some weapons but not all.

Furthermore, it is not the case. The rule is clearly limited to determining cover saves, which is not the same as LOS, although the method is similar.

ajfirecracker:

Exactly, this is the case because whether a model receives cover saves depends on the weapon's line of sight, just as when a model normally gets a cover save because a shooting model's line of sight to the target unit is partially obscured.

I realize they're analogues. What I'm saying is that "model" has a particular rules meaning, and being similar to a model in some way does not let you treat something as a model. Only a special rule or actually being a model does that. There is a special rule to treat weapons as models, but it only applies for cover saves, and only when some weapons would give cover saves and some would not.

That's where the "exactly as if" part of the rules comes in. The situations are not simply analogous, they are the same.

Here's how it works:

Are some weapons placed such that they would grant cover saves and some not?
If no, then you do not treat each weapon as a model.
If yes, continue:
Are you determining whether or not the unit gets cover saves?
If no, then you do not treat each weapon as a model.
If yes, then for the purposes of whether or not a cover save may be taken, treat each FIRING weapon as a model.

This means you must have already worked out which weapons are firing.

Nope, you work out which weapons can fire before checking line of sight, and which weapons you want to fire before checking range.

Better question, unless I miss something again.

Page 58, under Vehicles shooting, ends with "all its weapons must fire at a single target unit". It is easy enough to assume that this means it cannot split its fire, but also it is simple to infer this means. . . all its weapons must fire at a single target unit.
Is that incorrect?

Yes, you do. But at that stage you do not treat them as models. My little if-then diagram is based purely (and correctly) on RaW as given by p.58.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice catch, kirsanth. Yes, it does.

Kirsanth and ajfirecracker are both echoing my thoughts. I only see references to cover; nothing that leads me to believe that a vehicle can choose how many weapons to fire. That sentence from Kirsanth is what originally got me worried. There are a lot of passages in the rulebook, though. Here's to hoping we've missed one.

@Nurglitch:
So you believe that inquisitorial orbital strikes ignore cover, even though the codecies don't say they do? I just used the same logic you did.

Doesn't the demolisher cannon and the heavy bolter happen at the same time because it comes from the same tank? As far as I knew, all the wounds are allocated all at once and casualities are taken enmasse.

Kreedos wrote:Doesn't the demolisher cannon and the heavy bolter happen at the same time because it comes from the same tank? As far as I knew, all the wounds are allocated all at once and casualities are taken enmasse.

0_0

My question has to do with whether or not firing all the weapons on the tank is optional or not. That is what we have been discussing. My original post even assumes this and states it at least implicitly, I would hope.

Kreedos, he wants to not give heavy bolter shots so that the models wounded cannot allocate such that the cannon kills fewer (i.e. stacking the armor-denying wounds).

Also, should you wish to fire a Leman Russ demolisher cannon by itself, I believe you may simply fire it rather than use lumbering. This would allow the ordnance restrictions to deny other shots.

Good point, AJ, but I have the same problem if I go with the 3 plasma cannon option (Executioner?).

ajfirecracker wrote:Kreedos, he wants to not give heavy bolter shots so that the models wounded cannot allocate such that the cannon kills fewer (i.e. stacking the armor-denying wounds).

Also, should you wish to fire a Leman Russ demolisher cannon by itself, I believe you may simply fire it rather than use lumbering. This would allow the ordnance restrictions to deny other shots.

I have never hear or see someone allowed to suddenly change a unit's special rule to have it not exist whether its beneficial to the player or not.

Should you choose the executioner, could you not equip it with plasma sponsons and not heavy bolters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luna, the lumbering rule says you may choose to fire the turret regardless of other restrictions. It's my understanding that if you fire an ordnance turret first, you're not required to use the lumbering rule to fire additional weapons (as it is something you may do, unlike firing all weapons as discussed above)