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ajfirecracker wrote:No, Illuminati. It can still choose not to fire any. The argument is about whether or not it can choose to fire some weapons, but not all.

Correct. The Wording indicates that a Vehicle can choose to not fire, or it MUST fire as many weapons as permitted.

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Personaly I wouldnt make the other player fire weapons he didnt want to unless there was a rule that expressly said he must no matter what.

There is a rule, it is on page 58: "When a vehicle fires, it normally uses its own BS characteristic and shoots like other units - all its weapons must fire at a single target unit." Emphasis Added.

Individual MODELS may choose to fire or not fire (Page 16), not Weapons. Thus, if a Vehicle (a Model) chooses to fire, it MUST fire all its weapons. Or it can Choose to Not Fire, as per page 16

The true debate is if that is a rule ment for the phase of what weapons may/must shoot vs if the rule was about what they must target.

Why do you assume it is only one?

Because it takes special wargear to target multiple models with a vehicle.....ie Tau Multi-trackers

DJ Illuminati wrote:Because it takes special wargear to target multiple models with a vehicle.....ie Tau Multi-trackers

I don't see your point? Also Special Rules can do it Ala Land Raider.

As We are saying, what it means is that a Vehicle can Choose to either Not fire, or Fire as Many Weapons as it can with no "I am only going to shoot one weapon" option.

Gwar! wrote:

ajfirecracker wrote:No, Illuminati. It can still choose not to fire any. The argument is about whether or not it can choose to fire some weapons, but not all.

Correct. The Wording indicates that a Vehicle can choose to not fire, or it MUST fire as many weapons as permitted.

It only says it MAY fire all weapons.... it doesnt say in that paragraph that if it chooses to fire it MUST fire everything.

The only sentence that says anything about MUST shoot all weapons is refering to how many targets they may fire at with those guns

DJ Illuminati wrote:It only says it MAY fire all weapons.... it doesnt say in that paragraph that if it chooses to fire it MUST fire everything.

The only sentence that says anything about MUST shoot all weapons is refering to how many targets they may fire at with those guns

No, it says they Must fire earlier. Also, nothing indicates that it is talking about Targeting, In Fact it doesn't even have a subheading, it is just a general; Shooting Rule.

It doesn't say that you can Turbo Boost in the Movement rules. Does that mean you cannot turbo boost? The rules are spread over the book you know.

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:It only says it MAY fire all weapons.... it doesnt say in that paragraph that if it chooses to fire it MUST fire everything.

The only sentence that says anything about MUST shoot all weapons is refering to how many targets they may fire at with those guns

No, it says they Must fire earlier. Also, nothing indicates that it is talking about Targeting, In Fact it doesn't even have a subheading, it is just a general; Shooting Rule.

The only time it says that it must fire all weapons is when it says they must target one unit.............I would see that as a rule for how many targets they are allowed to target.

Why does the word MAY pop up so many other times if it it is a clear cut black and white rule that they must fire all weapons no matter what.

The HK missle is a great example........your rule would state that I would have to fire it at the first thing I shoot at even if I am waiting for a better target.


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Gwar! wrote:

ajfirecracker wrote:No, Illuminati. It can still choose not to fire any. The argument is about whether or not it can choose to fire some weapons, but not all.

Correct. The Wording indicates that a Vehicle can choose to not fire, or it MUST fire as many weapons as permitted.

Your rule is proven wrong as the 3rd paragraph says that rapid fire/ heavy weapons "ALWAYS FIRE, regardless of whether it moves or not".......so that means I never get a choice to not shoot my weapons, and since some of my weapons fired I MUST fire all weapons......which contradicts the rule that says I MAY fire.......it doesnt say MUST

Yeah, they always fire, if you choose to fire. You don;t get it do you. We are not syaing you must always fire, we are saying you can choose to either not fire, or fire as many weapons as permitted by your movement. And yes, that means if you stay still and fire you must fire your HK missiles.

Gwar! wrote:Yeah, they always fire, if you choose to fire.

It says they always fire..... I wouldnt get a choice by your rule...... I also wont be able to fire Defensive weapons unless I move because it says I have to move at Combat speed to shoot them, by your system of logic, I can assume that because it didnt say I could shoot it if I stayed stationary, that means I have to move to shoot them

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yeah, they always fire, if you choose to fire.

It says they always fire..... I wouldnt get a choice by your rule...... I also wont be able to fire Defensive weapons unless I move because it says I have to move at Combat speed to shoot them, by your system of logic, I can assume that because it didnt say I could shoot it if I stayed stationary, that means I have to move to shoot them

Look, read the thread before spouting nonsense. You are wearing my patience and others very thin. We already covered that a Model may always choose not to fire (as per Page 16). This applies to Models only, not weapons. Thus if a Vehicle wishes to fire, it must fire as many weapons as permitted by its movement, or it can choose to not fire as per page 16.

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yeah, they always fire, if you choose to fire.

It says they always fire..... I wouldnt get a choice by your rule...... I also wont be able to fire Defensive weapons unless I move because it says I have to move at Combat speed to shoot them, by your system of logic, I can assume that because it didnt say I could shoot it if I stayed stationary, that means I have to move to shoot them

Look, read the thread before spouting nonsense. I am a patent man but you are wearing me thin. We already covered that a Model may always choose not to fire (as per Page 16). This applies to Models only, not weapons. Thus if a Vehicle wishes to fire, it must fire as many weapons as permitted by its movement, or it can choose to not fire as per page 16.

I am here to be the voice of the other side of this debate, if you cannot handle the fact that some of us do not believe in your style of rules reading then just call me a cheater like you have done to many of us in the past, and learn to live with those of us that play our game for (GASP) fun.

I saw no rule that said that a vehicle must shoot all or none of its weapons. I saw a rule that said all the weapons it shoots must be at one target, and another that said I MAY shoot all my weapons, but nothing that said I couldnt shoot just one.

DJ Illuminati wrote:I am here to be the voice of the other side of this debate, if you cannot handle the fact that some of us do not believe in your style of rules reading then just call me a cheater like you have done to many of us in the past, and learn to live with those of us that play our game for (GASP) fun.

I saw no rule that said that a vehicle must shoot all or none of its weapons. I saw a rule that said all the weapons it shoots must be at one target, and another that said I MAY shoot all my weapons, but nothing that said I couldnt shoot just one.

The problem is, you are not making any sort of argument. You are just going "lalalalalalalalalalalalalala I ignore you". Secondly, "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid Argument. You need a rule letting you fire one weapon.

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:I am here to be the voice of the other side of this debate, if you cannot handle the fact that some of us do not believe in your style of rules reading then just call me a cheater like you have done to many of us in the past, and learn to live with those of us that play our game for (GASP) fun.

I saw no rule that said that a vehicle must shoot all or none of its weapons. I saw a rule that said all the weapons it shoots must be at one target, and another that said I MAY shoot all my weapons, but nothing that said I couldnt shoot just one.

The problem is, you are not making any sort of argument. You are just going "lalalalalalalalalalalalalala I ignore you".

I notice you ignored my second point because (I assume) it kills your "argument"

Gwar! wrote:I notice you ignored my second point because (I assume) it kills your "argument"

Perhaps if you said all you needed to say instead of Editing it after I start to respond, I might see it

Also, under the rule for models choosing to fire (general shooting section, not vehicle specific), it says that models that choose to fire must fire "at full effect".

Is that unclear?

ajfirecracker wrote:Also, under the rule for models choosing to fire (general shooting section, not vehicle specific), it says that models that choose to fire must fire "at full effect".

Is that unclear?

Clearly Full Effect only means that when it is convenient. Duh!

@DJ: Why not respond now?

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:I am here to be the voice of the other side of this debate, if you cannot handle the fact that some of us do not believe in your style of rules reading then just call me a cheater like you have done to many of us in the past, and learn to live with those of us that play our game for (GASP) fun.

I saw no rule that said that a vehicle must shoot all or none of its weapons. I saw a rule that said all the weapons it shoots must be at one target, and another that said I MAY shoot all my weapons, but nothing that said I couldnt shoot just one.

The problem is, you are not making any sort of argument. You are just going "lalalalalalalalalalalalalala I ignore you". Secondly, "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid Argument. You need a rule letting you fire one weapon.

Wouldnt that mean a SM must fire his bolter at a squad he wants to assualt instead of a pistol because there is no rule in the shooting section that says I may choose to shoot with a pistol as opposed to the Bolter???


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ajfirecracker wrote:Also, under the rule for models choosing to fire (general shooting section, not vehicle specific), it says that models that choose to fire must fire "at full effect".

Is that unclear?

Which page is that, I want to make sure I am looking at the same thing you are so I get your point.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Wouldnt that mean a SM must fire his bolter at a squad he wants to assualt instead of a pistol because there is no rule in the shooting section that says I may choose to shoot with a pistol as opposed to the Bolter???

Page 15: Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon.
Thus, if you choose to Fire your Pistol, you are prohibited from also firing your Bolter, just like how a Vehicle cannot fire more than one S5+ Gun if it Moves at Combat Speed.

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Wouldnt that mean a SM must fire his bolter at a squad he wants to assualt instead of a pistol because there is no rule in the shooting section that says I may choose to shoot with a pistol as opposed to the Bolter???

Page 15: Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon.
Thus, if you choose to Fire your Pistol, you are prohibited from also firing your Bolter, just like how a Vehicle cannot fire more than one S5+ Gun if it Moves at Combat Speed.

It doesnt say they can shoot pistols......so your rule that it may say exactly what you can do would tell me that they can shoot a weapon, but since it doesnt say which one, than means none.

OOOOORRRRRRR you could say that because it doesnt say you cant shoot a pistol, you would be allowed to as it fits the one weapons rule.

A permisive approach to the rules just hinders everyones fun as we spend too much time debating rules that are poorly written

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Wouldnt that mean a SM must fire his bolter at a squad he wants to assualt instead of a pistol because there is no rule in the shooting section that says I may choose to shoot with a pistol as opposed to the Bolter???

Page 15: Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon.
Thus, if you choose to Fire your Pistol, you are prohibited from also firing your Bolter, just like how a Vehicle cannot fire more than one S5+ Gun if it Moves at Combat Speed.

It doesnt say they can shoot pistols......so your rule that it may say exactly what you can do would tell me that they can shoot a weapon, but since it doesnt say which one, than means none.

OOOOORRRRRRR you could say that because it doesnt say you cant shoot a pistol, you would be allowed to as it fits the one weapons rule.

A permisive approach to the rules just hinders everyones fun as we spend too much time debating rules that are poorly written

No, There has to be a rule allowing you to fire. There does not have to be a rule saying "You may fire a Pistol".

If you are going to debate, please make some sort of logical sense (and type readable English that is run through a spell-checker).

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Wouldnt that mean a SM must fire his bolter at a squad he wants to assualt instead of a pistol because there is no rule in the shooting section that says I may choose to shoot with a pistol as opposed to the Bolter???

Page 15: Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon.
Thus, if you choose to Fire your Pistol, you are prohibited from also firing your Bolter, just like how a Vehicle cannot fire more than one S5+ Gun if it Moves at Combat Speed.

It doesnt say they can shoot pistols......so your rule that it may say exactly what you can do would tell me that they can shoot a weapon, but since it doesnt say which one, than means none.

OOOOORRRRRRR you could say that because it doesnt say you cant shoot a pistol, you would be allowed to as it fits the one weapons rule.

A permisive approach to the rules just hinders everyones fun as we spend too much time debating rules that are poorly written

No, There has to be a rule allowing you to fire. There does not have to be a rule saying "You may fire a Pistol".

If you are going to debate, please make some sort of logical sense (and type readable English that is run through a spell-checker).

At what point did you start allowing logical sense in this debate? If you can demand that rule book walk you hand and hand like a little schoolgirl through how the game is played and hold all the rules in the book as flawless then its silly that you can ignore parts of the rules and the way other sentences are worded if it contradicts your first impression.

And god forbid that maby we see the rules in a different way than you do.......lets just end the argument the way it always ends between us.......

I will insist that your ruling is flawed and based on hypocritical reading

You will ignore anything myself or anyone that agrees with me have to say.

We will point out that no one we know would ever play it with your restrictive viewpoint

You will call us all cheaters and quit posting for a few hours...

Sounds like a pattern that may not change anytime soon........


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For now lets just agree that the book is written like crap and no one is going to come to a universal agreement on this topic.........


I also no longer have any interest in this topic anymore as my point was made public, and I have things to do. I have a life outside of 40k and Dakka, may I suggest you do the same and broaden your interests beyond proving that the proofreader for GW is slightly over paid.

DJ Illumati, you have dragged this thread off-track a few times, and are making inflammatory posts that are not relevant to the rules discussions. You're letting frustration and emotion get the better of you in your posts; step back for a moment, compose your arguments by referencing rules and do so in a less combative tone.

Thank you.

When you have multiple weapons on a model, but can only fire some of them, you choose between them. For example, on a vehicle, you choose which gun to fire if you may only fire 1. The same principle applies to infantry.

Monstrous creatures would face a similar restriction to vehicles, since they may generally fire multiple weapons (if they have them).

In a squadron of vehicles, or an infantry unit, you're allowed to only fire with certain models. (Although squadrons do have another rule which should help make it clear that vehicles are supposed to fire with all available weapons). This is a separate ability.

In the example of a tactical squad, it would mean that the squad could fire their bolt pistols or bolters, but if they fired the bolters, they must fire 2 shots if within range, not one.

wtf are you talking about. Are you asking wether or not you can fire the ordnance weapon instead of the other ones? You can ALWAYS fire the ordnance weapon. Even when you move. The New lumbering behemoth lets you fire another one. So what are you talking about? Why on earth would you NOT fire the big gun? If your trying to take out infantry. Infact why would you not fire EVERYTHING you can. There are very few situations where you would not want to like if you wanted to assault the unit which you were shooting at, which guard never do.

In addition you do NOT HAVE TO take sponsons. So why do that to yourself if you are gonna worry about it.

smart_alex wrote:So what are you talking about? Why on earth would you NOT fire the big gun? If your trying to take out infantry.

The big guns is what is fired, the OP wanted to ask if it's OK to not shoot the smaller guns. Why? Because sometimes that infantry is something like Ork Nobs with all mixed weapons and wargear. Suddenly firing everything means that fewer Nobz die due to the defender stacking Instant Death wounds as the rules allow him to do.

Gwar! wrote:There is a rule, it is on page 58: "When a vehicle fires, it normally uses its own BS characteristic and shoots like other units - all its weapons must fire at a single target unit." Emphasis Added.

Individual MODELS may choose to fire or not fire (Page 16), not Weapons. Thus, if a Vehicle (a Model) chooses to fire, it MUST fire all its weapons. Or it can Choose to Not Fire, as per page 16

I would disagree quite strongly with this interpretation. I would argue that "must" refers to the "at a single unit" rather than requiring you to fire all weapons.

Your interpretation breaks when a vehicle is unable to fire all weapons, e.g. after moving. Now you cannot fire all weapons so are unable to follow this rule.

Your argument is that the rule actually says: all a vehicles weapons which are available to fire must fire at a single target unit.
I would argue that the rule actually says: all of a vehicles weapons which are being fired must fire at a single target unit.

As for the fire at full effect rule - this is specifically about firing less shots than maximum from a multi-shot weapon. There are many examples of GW rules that are written for standard infantry and fail to apply properly for other things (like the targetting rules).


How are we going to apply this rule to flyers with bombs or missile racks - must fire all of them the first time it shoots?


So, how are people planning on playing this?
1. Must fire all weapons including one-shot bolt-ons.
2. Must fire all weapons excluding one-shot bolt-ons which are optional.
3. Can fire whatever the hell you want up to the maximum allowed.

Why not just move the tank and not worry about it?

Nurgleboy77 wrote:Why not just move the tank and not worry about it?

Due to Lumbering Behemoth, he'd still be able to fire 2 weapons.

Maybe four (co-ax weapon and pintle weapon)

True. I don't use sponsons anyway.