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Hi

I just finished a rough copy for the C'tan Outsider's datasheet and I wanted to see what the good people at Dakka thought about it.


C'tan Outsider

Outsider Pts/Model WS BS S T I A Ld Sv
360 5 5 9 8 5 4 10 4+

Number/Squad: 1 Outsider

Weapons: The Outsider has combined the most powerful of gauss technology with his own Necrodermis to create three immensely powerful weapons that can be fired from the limbs of his Necrodermis.

Character: A C'tan is an Independent Character and follows all the rules for characters in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook modified by the "Above All Others" rule (can't join friendly units & may be picked out by enemy shooters, even if within 6" of other targets).

SPECIAL RULES
Particle Cannon: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can fire multiple grey bolts of negative gauss energy at his prey.

Range Str AP Type/Special
24" 5 4 Rapid Fire

Heavy Particle Cannon: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can discharge a very thin focussed beam of negative gauss energy that can engage enemies from the other side of the battle field.(In the case of large Apocalyse battles the Range is increased to 240").

Range Str AP Type/Special
120" 8 2 3" Blast

Particle Accelerator: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can Warp into space onto a small rock or peice of debris, he can then discharge all the negative gauss energy as a focussed beam as thin as spider's silk that stretches a maximum range of 2 Quadrillion miles back to the planet the outsider was on just seconds ago.

Range Str AP Type/Special
Unlimited 10 1 5" Blast, One-Shot

Light of Resurrection: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can Resurrect any Necrons that have a unit within 12" of the Outsider. The Outsider can only Resurrect Necrons of the following with a roll of a D6:
(2xNecron Warriors on a roll of 6)
(1xNecron Warriors on a roll of 3+)
(1xImmortals on a roll of 4+)
(1xFlayed Ones on a roll of 4+)
(1xWraiths on a roll of 5+)
(1 Tomb Spyder)

Okay so thats about it, let me know what you think and if you really want me to change something then tell me right away, and please give me a good reason.
Also I put this in the Painting & Modeling section because I will be making the model and painting it, and I'll put up some pics as well but dont expect them anytime soon.

Thanks.

Unlimited ranged weaponry that just so happens to be wicked kinds of powerful with templates, and crazy insane close combat abilities to make him near unkillable up close...

Way freaking overpowered.

Doesn't seem like the outsider to me.

Why ever take a normal C'Tan when you can just make an overpowered and supremely up gunned one for the same points?

This is why home brew rules don't usually work too well.

I do like your idea, but it seems you basically made a model that you want/need in your army and haven't really thought about points/fairness.

ALL of that for only 360 points?!?! /Headdesk


Also this doesn't really belong in P&M

Yeah I agree. 360 points for all that, and it doesnt fit him really... I also hate the description for that last attack.... 2 quadrillion... But unlimited... ??????? and it just sounds cheezy

With the shear amount of destruction something like that could make, 800 points is way too low. 360 is rediculous. An S10 AP1 template is enough to absolutely decimate AT LEAST half that much in a single turn, and that other S8 AP2 template will do pretty much the same thing in 2 turns. And with rediculous range like that, there's absolutely no way to get around that.

I'm sorry, it's not just a tinge overpowered, it's not just a poor idea...

It's completely fething stupid. If you put that on the table, expect anyone and everyone to walk away. At it's best, it's a horrible idea, at it's worst, it could very possibly be the worst thing to ever defile homebrew 40k rules.

The outsider is so powerful that he is contained in a Dyson sphere. Do you know how huge that is? You could never ever never forever never ever represent that in a game of 40k. Sorry.
EDIT: and this should be in proposed rules, not painting.

Although I do believe this is overpowered. I think you took it a bit too far farnir... Its not a bad idea to have rules for the outsider... the rules may not be fair, but all rules need tinkering before they are put out (except daemons... Where was the test and tinker thier eh?)

As for the fact that it should never be respresented in a game of 40k... I think thats a bit obserd too... I do not believe Nightbringer or Deciever are as small they are shown in game. Of coarse they are not on the same level but who is to say they cant be in a smaller non true form right? If i remmember correctly, all the ctan eat stars. (or maybe thats only outsider... i dont remmember...) All that I destinctivly remmember is that Outsider ate all of the other ctan besides the remaining 4 (including himself). However whos to say that it cant be represented in game? to me thats just fething stupid to say such a thing...

Buttlerthepug wrote:Although I do believe this is overpowered. I think you took it a bit too far farnir... Its not a bad idea to have rules for the outsider... the rules may not be fair, but all rules need tinkering before they are put out (except daemons... Where was the test and tinker thier eh?)

Thing is, something like that isn't just along the lines of unfair, it's just freaking stupid. It doesn't take playtesting to know that something like that is going to be obscenely powerful. Durability that would make a wraithlord cry combined with a freaking S10 AP1 template weapon should automatically draw red tape.

As for the fact that it should never be respresented in a game of 40k... I think thats a bit obserd too... I do not believe Nightbringer or Deciever are as small they are shown in game. Of coarse they are not on the same level but who is to say they cant be in a smaller non true form right? If i remmember correctly, all the ctan eat stars. (or maybe thats only outsider... i dont remmember...) All that I destinctivly remmember is that Outsider ate all of the other ctan besides the remaining 4 (including himself). However whos to say that it cant be represented in game? to me thats just fething stupid to say such a thing...

All C'tan do eat stars, that's true. Anyway, I'm not against the outsider being used in-game. The more options, the better, especially for the Necrons, who could use some of that more then anyone. But whe it's as bad as this... no.

Not to mention that it's abilities completely ignore his fluff. Why the hell is he using a bunch of big guns? Why is he ressurecting Necrons(this makes no sense at all, since the C'tan couldn't care less about the Necrons, let alone the Outsider) He should be all about terror. He should be more like a glorified Pariah then anything else. Everything about him is about him scaring people into killing themselves when he gets near, why is he shooting people from 2 quadrillion miles away?

I totally agree Farnir, its exactly what Im trying to say. All I was saying is that its not COMPLETELY slowed to make rules for him (which is what it seemed like) but i do agree these rules are way out of line... just not the idea for making rules In my own oppinion. Make him way more points. Maybe like 1250 or someting like that. Tone it down a bit, follow his lore.

Vires101 wrote:Hi

I just finished a rough copy for the C'tan Outsider's datasheet and I wanted to see what the good people at Dakka thought about it.


C'tan Outsider

Outsider Pts/Model WS BS S T I A Ld Sv
360 5 5 9 8 5 4 10 4+

Number/Squad: 1 Outsider

Weapons: The Outsider has combined the most powerful of gauss technology with his own Necrodermis to create three immensely powerful weapons that can be fired from the limbs of his Necrodermis.

Character: A C'tan is an Independent Character and follows all the rules for characters in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook modified by the "Above All Others" rule (can't join friendly units & may be picked out by enemy shooters, even if within 6" of other targets).

SPECIAL RULES
Particle Cannon: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can fire multiple grey bolts of negative gauss energy at his prey.

Range Str AP Type/Special
24" 5 4 Rapid Fire

Heavy Particle Cannon: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can discharge a very thin focussed beam of negative gauss energy that can engage enemies from the other side of the battle field.(In the case of large Apocalyse battles the Range is increased to 240").

Range Str AP Type/Special
120" 8 2 3" Blast

Particle Accelerator: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can Warp into space onto a small rock or peice of debris, he can then discharge all the negative gauss energy as a focussed beam as thin as spider's silk that stretches a maximum range of 2 Quadrillion miles back to the planet the outsider was on just seconds ago.

Range Str AP Type/Special
Unlimited 10 1 5" Blast, One-Shot

Light of Resurrection: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can Resurrect any Necrons that have a unit within 12" of the Outsider. The Outsider can only Resurrect Necrons of the following with a roll of a D6:
(2xNecron Warriors on a roll of 6)
(1xNecron Warriors on a roll of 3+)
(1xImmortals on a roll of 4+)
(1xFlayed Ones on a roll of 4+)
(1xWraiths on a roll of 5+)
(1 Tomb Spyder)

Okay so thats about it, let me know what you think and if you really want me to change something then tell me right away, and please give me a good reason.
Also I put this in the Painting & Modeling section because I will be making the model and painting it, and I'll put up some pics as well but dont expect them anytime soon.

Thanks.

Crazy. WAY over the top. Sorry bud, but this would never fly in my neck of the woods. I appreciate your trying your hand at rules-writing, but this is really, really out-of-control. Keep at it, though. As long as you keep playing the game and, more importantly, playtest the HELL out of your rules, you'll end up coming up with good ones eventually.

(you really need to lose the "2 quadrillion" stuff, too. Sounds awfully silly)


*EDIT*
Ack. Sorry for the mega-quote...

Why is this in painting and modeling? I thought we were going to get pics of the outsider....

Well, OK then but no-one has said what they want removed or changed and what they want it changed to, all I'm getting is this would be far too over-powered, I put up this thread too get your negative and positive comments. Also the entire datasheet was not my idea, all the rules and abilities were segested to me and I'm not positive that I'm going to keep things like the Particle Accelerator, truthfuly I think it's the frist thing to go.

So please tell me what you want to see and what you don't want to see, and please for the God who watches over no more kid remarks "OH THIS IS STUPID" or "USING THIS WOULD BE CHEATING".

I put this up so you can have your say, not so you can rip my Head Off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Pictures will come in the future, as it said in the first post.

Vires101 wrote:Well, OK then but no-one has said what they want removed or changed and what they want it changed to, all I'm getting is this would be far too over-powered

Really? I saw plenty of suggestions. Allow me to give you a hand really fast:

Merriam-Webster wrote:
infer

* Pronunciation: \in-ˈfər\
* Function: verb
* Inflected Form(s): in·ferred; in·fer·ring
* Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French inferer, from Latin inferre, literally, to carry or bring into, from in- + ferre to carry — more at bear
* Date: 1528

transitive verb
1 : to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises <we see smoke and infer fire — L. A. White> — compare imply
2 : guess, surmise <your letter…allows me to infer that you are as well as ever — O. W. Holmes †1935>
3 a : to involve as a normal outcome of thought b : to point out : indicate <this doth infer the zeal I had to see him — Shakespeare> <another survey…infers that two-thirds of all present computer installations are not paying for themselves — H. R. Chellman>
4 : suggest, hint <are you inferring I'm incompetent?>

If you would take a second to stop being offended and defensive about people's replies and actually read what these people are saying, you could infer that people want to you change just about everything. Scrap the whole thing and start anew. Only this time playtest it before posting it. When people say, "it's way overpowered" you could infer that it is over-the-top. When people say, "the points cost is FAR too low" you could infer that it needs to cost more. When people say, "I do like your idea, but..." you can infer that you may be on to something but that your ideas are too much and, using the other inferences you didn't make, you might have been able to infer that this was, start to finish, a poorly executed series of ideas.

Allow me to demonstrate:

1) From reading the replies of some of these people, I could infer that they didn't do very well on spelling tests.

2) From reading your last reply, I can infer that you got butt-hurt and didn't want to take the criticism that you asked for. Alternatively, I could infer that you didn't actually read the replies for what they were, only focusing on the fact that you thought them to be insults.


Fact remains that these rules are over-the-top, under priced, and just plain ludicrous on a stellar level. At this point, I strongly echo Caesarius Prime's advice to start over and REALLY playtest your rules before posting something like this.
Joyus_Oblivion hit the nail on the head; this is why home-brew rules don't work well.

Vires101 wrote:...maximum range of 2 Quadrillion miles...

This was HYSTERICAL! No matter what you do, you have got to include this in the rules somewhere. I seriously laughed my ass off when I read this. This has 'Pan Fo' written all over it.

"Sorry Mr. Outsider. The planet you just left is 2 quadrillion and ONE miles away. You miss."


LOL!!!



Ghidorah

THE OUTSIDER SHALL BE REVILED!

Hey Bro.

My mate was trying to make a new C'tan too...

his ended up as... the DAYTAKER

Pts - 380, WS - 6, BS - 4, S - 8, T - 10, W - 5, I - 4, A - 5, Ld - 10, Sv - 4+/4+

Number in squad = 1

Independant Character.

Ethric Tempest... But backwards - All enemy units within 2d6" must make a leadership test at -1, on a fail they must assault the DAYTAKER, (if more than 6" away they just move 6" towards the DAYTAKER).

Hidden Spider... - Keep the DAYTAKER in reserve, when he comes into play choose an enemy unit. that unit immediately takes 1d3 wounds, without aarmour saves. As one of their comrades changes shape into the DAYTAKER and rips apart the ones near him... the DAYTAKER is place immediately into assault with the unit.

all other C'tan things are removed...


anyway i believe that if your oppenent agrees with the rules and point allotments... AFTER YOU EXPLAIN HOW YOU CAME UP WITH IT AND HOW THAT MAY AFFECT THE GAMING... then he should be okay.

Elegost

Ok then is this better and more fair.

C'tan Outsider

Outsider Pts/Model WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
400 5 4 6 8 5 5 4 10 4+

Number/Squad: 1 Outsider

Weapons: The Outsider does not carry weapons.

Character: A C'tan is an Independent Character and follows all the rules for characters in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook modified by the "Above All Others" rule (can't join friendly units & may be picked out by enemy shooters, even if within 6" of other targets).

SPECIAL RULES
Particle Cannon: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can fire multiple grey bolts of negative gauss energy at his prey.

Range Str AP Type/Special
24" 4 5 Rapid Fire, Gauss

Particle Accelerator: In the Shooting phase, the Outsider can discharge a very thin focussed beam of negative gauss energy that can engage enemies from the other side of the battle field.(In the case of large Apocalyse battles the Range may be increased to 240",depending on the size of the battle field).

Range Str AP Type/Special
120" 6 4 3" Blast, Heavy 3

Gaze of Terror: In the assault phase, the Outsider may use the Gaze of Terror instead of attacking normally in close combat. Place the tear-drop template on the Outsider and aim it in the direction of the enemy you want to attack, any enemy units completly covered by the template are wounded on a roll of 4+, any enemies partially covered by the template are wounded on a roll of 5+.

So please tell me what you think.
Thank you.

"Negative" Gauss energy is a dumb idea. What the hell does it mean? You're just trying to make your Outsider sound cooler but you end up sounding like something a 13 year old would write down.

Do you actually know anything about The Outsider? He wouldn't be shooting out globs of energy, he'd be rushing around devouring everything it could get it's hands on.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Outsider

Partially covered by templates is a thing of the past. Now its a binary thing, either its covered (even partially) or it is not.

Gaze of death will be hard to use because your opponents get to pile in when you assault them, meaning they will be able to go around much of the template attack. I think the template will almost always be worse than normal melee attacks.

As stated before, shooting attacks do not fit the outsider fluff. I would consider starting from scratch and finding fluffy ways of making a monster. He looks pretty generic with his rapid fire weak weapon and his blast strong weapon.

Overall I give it a big meh.

I'd play a game against an army running the Outsider if I was allowed to use Mork and Gork on my side...

Orks is da best!!!

Also can anyone give me some links to info on the Necron Aeonic Orb.
Thank You.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also can anyone give me some links to info on the Necron Aeonic Orb.
Thank You.

An Aeonic Orb is a piece of a sun used to kill Titans. I don't think you could ever hope to fit it in 40k.

Having no knowledge of the necron dex i shouldnt really comment, allthough i did just lookup info on the Outsider for some reference.

Just a quick go at what i would suggest:


C'tan Outsider

WS - 7
BS - 5
S - 8
T - 6
W - 5
I - 6
A - 5
LD - 10
SV - 4+/4+

Points - 450

Number/Squad - 1 Outsider.

Weapons: The Outsider does not carry weapons.

Unit type - Monsterous Creature.


SPECIAL RULES

Furious charge - Basic rule.

Gauss Explosion - Once per necron shooting phase the Outsider may elect to use Gauss Explosion.
This is a shooting attack with no range.
A large blast template is centered on the outsider.
This template cannot scatter.
Profile of Gauss Explosion:

S - 5
AP - 4

This attack may be used when engaged in cloce combat.

Insanity - Throughout consumption of other C'tan the Outsider has driven its self crazy.
at the start of each necron movement phase roll a single D6.
1-5 - passed
6 - failed.

Failed - The Outsider is driven crazy through sheer power and attacks anything in reach of him, turning on his fellow necron.(?)
The opponant gains control of the model for the duration of the turn.
In this duration the player may attack fellow necron units as it it were an enemy unit.

Wandering presence - The Outsider hunts for fellow C'tan over the battle field.
Each turn he must take a LD test, if he fails then he has left in search of C'tan.
It is removed as a casualty

Fear through power - No other C'tan may be used in an army with the Outsider.

Hunter of the C'tan - If another C'tan is included in an enemy army then the Outsider must move towards and assault the model whenever possible.




Well, thats it really
Sure, he is fething strong, but ive tried to balance that out with somewhat dodgy rules that cause him to be not so daunting all the time.

After following MasterSlowPoke's link and reading its' contents, a few things jumped out at me:

MasterSlowPoke's link wrote:Translation of an Eldar Artifact

The artifact has only one mention of the outsider, "That Which Lies Outside will be drawn to the harvest" (4), implying that the Outsider is named so because it is physically outside of something, possibly the galaxy.

MasterSlowPoke's link wrote:The Outsider shares some similarities with the Nightbringer, in that in it is said that to look upon it would cause terror...

MasterSlowPoke's link wrote:Farseer Maechu of Ulthwe

This article gives a brief description of the domain of the Outsider, possibly even its mind. It talks about inverted geometries and an illogical labyrinth (5). It also talks about how it captured 'harvest' and drives them insane but allows them to keep a sliver of hope, in a way increasing their torture (6).

MasterSlowPoke's link wrote:Ex-Adept Cortswain

...the incident of the Skitarii being turned insane and killing each other in fits of madness matches more with the Outsider than any other C'tan.

It's painfully obvious where you need to go with his rules, if you stay fluffy.

1) Enemy (or better yet, ANY) units within xx inches must pass a LD test or attack the nearest possible friendly unit. There should probably be a negative modifier to the LD.
__A) You could make it an automatic AoE effect like Nurgle's Rot used to be, maybe a 12" radius, where all models (non-vehicle?) are affected.
_____a) Maybe a "shooting attack" that will AoE in a pulse of 24" radius that will affect all models (again, non-vehicle?).
__B) Instead of a LD test with a negative modifier, maybe a roll of 1-4 = affected, 5-6 = unaffected? This could represent the "sliver of hope" referred to in the fluff.
__C) Affected units must use primary attack methods on each other. Ex: Howling Banshees/Assault Marines must try to assault nearest friendly unit while Broadsides/Ork Boyz must shoot at nearest friendly units?

2) As an alternative to #1 above, on a 1-4 units take casualties on a 4+ from attacking themselves in fits of madness. Normal saves apply.
__A) Ranged AoE and pulse AoE rules could also go into effect with sub-bullet points in #1.
(--- I actually like this one better. It's fairly powerful, but doesn't seem too over-the-top to me. It can't be as abusive when coupled with the Deep Strike rule below, should that be implemented. Plus, it fits more within GW's penchant for dumbing down their rules.)

3) As a detriment, maybe a rule that he must assault any other C'Tan within a set range? This would represent his willingness to consume other C'Tan.
__A) Must assault or move towards any C'Tan within 18".

4) Outsider must enter play using Deep Strike.
__A) Maybe make him Deep Strike a minimum distance away from any other units? This can counter a "Deep Strike Psychic Bomb Delivery" that would surely crop up. Outsider Deep Strikes into the middle of the table where 50 units are congregated and pops his 24" 'attack each other' ability and ruins half of the game in one fell swoop.




So, there's a few ideas for you. Mind you, I haven't done ANY playtesting of these. These are merely ideas. Jumping-off platforms that could turn into rules. Personally, I don't see them as overly broken or ludicrously overpowered and, in my opinion, fit what little Outsider fluff there is rather nicely.

As for points values or stat lines, I cannot offer any suggestions. I have never dabbled in this area. I figure he should be more expensive than other C'Tan, but I don't know that he should be that much more expensive. Certainly less than double the cost.


As an addendum to the Deep Strike rule, it should TOTALLY read: "Outsider Deep Strikes from 2 Quadrillion miles away". Just sayin'...




Ghidorah

@JD21290, um why is he 90 points more than the Nightbringer but has t6, in my opinion he is much, much worse than the Nightbringer, he can fail a ld check and run away or he can kill some of your own necrons. I do like how the insanity is represented but i think that you have nerfed the ctan too much. I think almost all ctan should have t8, but i am a necron player so i could be biased.

Thanks tiekwando, i was thinking about upping stats, but didnt want to go over the top, maybe a T8 boost then to help balance him a bit?
fluff suggested he was nutty as squirrel gak, so had to think of something in rules to depict it.

I made a profile for the void dragon, and frankly this seems like you're just trying to make him fill the gaps for what you think necrons are missing. He should only have 1 shooting ability, and it shouldn't be gauss. Not sure about this, but i dont think Ctan use gauss weaponry. (i may be mistaken, since i havent read much fluff outside of the basics). They have other godly energies to harness.

Theres not much fluff on him, but you could be more creative and come up with stuff. I really liked Ghidorah's suggestions. His name means something: The outsider. The stuff Ghidorah suggested makes sense, deepstriking away from your units, and attacking other ctan. THe most recent profile has 3 negative things on it (he attacks your own stuff on a 6, he can just leave at random, and you cant use any other ctan). The not using other ctan makes sense, but i'd pick 1 of the other 2.

To me the outsider seems closer to the deciever than the nightbringer (more special abilites than shooting attacks and CC stuffs).

You're also considering this to be in Apoc. Do him some justice, make him a gargantuan .

T-6 is low. Really low. I suppose it may be slightly more acceptable now that you've added a 4+ normal save (however a bunch of daemonhunter weapons ignore invulns and have ap4 just so you know).

In regard to fluff, the C'tan on the gaming board are shells that are created for possession and manipulation of the C'tan. Prior to the Necrons existence, the C'tan were beings of similar (or quite probably greater) power to that of the Old Ones.

The Necrontyr gave up their mortality for the chance to wage war (and win) against said Old fellas. Who upon realising the power of the C'tan, started playing with the warp and inadvertantly, possibly, didn't, but maybe they did create the Eldar, Ork and this no doubt led to the corruption several bajillion years later, of the Space Marines.


Anyhow, seeing as their bound to the shell created for them, and the only escape apparantly (unless theres something elsewhere in fluff that I've missed) is to break the shell, hence the kaboom when you kill one.

Kinda forgot what I was aiming at here...
EDIT: Oh aye, he shouldn't be able to leave the planet, so that shooty you had planned about disappearing and reappearing wouldn't really work fluff wise.

Looking at that Lexicanum link, I'd say you should treat him like a demonically possessed DN (haven't played chaos in a while, but someting to do with 'on a certain d6 result, unit goes insane, shoots/assaults closest unit)

ok i made rules for outsider once, look at almost very bottom that should be the final one http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/247525.page