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several people on dakka are making out that skaven are this amazing army that no-one can beat, they obviously don't collect them, they are the most difficult army to play with in whfb and now having the oldest rules out has just made them even worse. there is nothing in the army that is guaranteed to do any real damage to the enemy at any range and combat, well lets just forget it, it doesn't matter how many guys you get in they always run (i know some of you will disagree but its happened too many times over the years to simply be put down to bad tactics). most people think that skaven are supposed to be cowards like gobbos, but this is just a common misconception, they should only run if the odds are stacked against them, as any true skaven player knows, if they outnumber you they aren't gonna run. this is why im hoping for one simple new rule for the skaven, i don't care what else they do to the army all i ask is for all skaven to be stubborn only when they outnumber the enemy, which in my opinion is accurate to the background and not such an advantage that they become unbeatable, but lets be honest they could do anything to the army and still it wouldnt be as ridiculous as the high elf rules, which in my opinion are just stupid, how are skaven supposed to fight an army that has immense amounts of ranged attacks forcing you into combat just to find out that the whole army strikes first no matter what and there are whole units running round with 4+ ward saves, to name just two of the bad rules, they are just stupidly good, but then people always argue that their downside is that the whole army only has toughness 3, like thats such a big disadvantage, most other armies have the majority of toughness 3 with only the odd unit or character that is any tougher, and these are usually quickly killed by the high elves before they can take advantage of that fact. im also hoping that the new rules for the doomwheel will at least give my army a bit more of a punch, even if it is true to skaven engineering and takes out some rats aswell during the battle, i can live with that.

Whoa, wall of text, minus capital letters.

Just wondering, what exactly are you getting at with this post?

Dakka thinks skaven are OP?

Elves shouldn't ASF?

Skaven need Stubborn?

Yeah, I'm kinda lost as to the purpose of this thread, too. Spacing, grammar, a solid purpose, all things that might help your cause.

High Elves do have some nice tricks but I doubt anyone would consider them over the top by any means; Daemons currently hold that title, and much more deservedly than High Elves.

Skaven have issues, sure, but what army doesn't (Daemons excluded)? Complaining right before getting a brand new army book that has been set in stone for a while now seems rather fruitless as well.

Whoa, wall of text, minus capital letters.

Just wondering, what exactly are you getting at with this post?

Dakka thinks skaven are OP?

Elves shouldn't ASF?

Skaven need Stubborn?

Yeah apologies for the lack of capitals, ill try and keep a better track of them in future.
In response, I'm trying to get the point across that:
1) The current rules for skaven were bad when they were released and are just worse now that every other army has newer rules than them (except chaos dwarves),
2) High elves are a perfect example of how games workshop can go over the top sometimes with making the more popular armies too good (space marines anyone),
3) That skaven need a rule like stubborn (only if they outnumber the enemy) to, firstly be more accurate to their background and secondly to be able to hold up against many of the other whfb armies.

Don't worry! This is GW we're talking about! Relax! When the new book comes out, and the new minis are released, I am willing to bet on precedent alone that Skaven will shoot up the popularity charts and "totally broken" threads will appear on lesser gaming forums (not here as everyone seems relatively sane)

They definitely need a new book and I see what you are getting at. Skaven Ld is in the toilet and they get bashed around pretty good by like everyone, even halflings, making almost ever break test an "insane courage" role. I think the stubborn while outnumbering is a good idea with the following exceptions playing towards the fluff: Fear or Terror causing opponents.

The problem with that might be people will be fielding Skaven in gia-mungous units of like 100 (I've seen Empire Spearmen in 60 men units), stacked with characters and magic items.

As for HE. Dark Elf players hated the new book like no one else. But the HE were getting manhandled way too easily and not living up to their fluff. Who knows? Maybe they'll get some units that eat Warpstone and get mad popeye powers for a turn?

Skaven armies have lame leadership because every one takes a Grey Seer and 2-3 warplock enginseers to smash you in the magic phase, rather than a chieftan for Ld.

Skaven are still competative, but require skyre to be so.
Looking forward to the new book, not looking forward to a complete rewrite of each spell and special rule for the army.

bulletproof_tinner wrote:2) High elves are a perfect example of how games workshop can go over the top sometimes with making the more popular armies too good (space marines anyone),

People consider Space Marines too good? Hardly. Space Marines are the definition of jack of all trades, master of none. Sure there are good builds for SM, but very, very far from being overpowered. Again, I think the better example here is WHFB Chaos Daemons being introduced as a brand new army and pretty far over the top. Of course, 40k Daemons are... well... suboptimal.

Kirbinator wrote:

bulletproof_tinner wrote:2) High elves are a perfect example of how games workshop can go over the top sometimes with making the more popular armies too good (space marines anyone),

People consider Space Marines too good? Hardly. Space Marines are the definition of jack of all trades, master of none. Sure there are good builds for SM, but very, very far from being overpowered. Again, I think the better example here is WHFB Chaos Daemons being introduces as a brand new army and pretty far over the top. Of course, 40k Daemons are... well... suboptimal.

Yeah, i find it funny one of the worst 40k armys is one of the best WHFB armys lol. Go figure!

Basically I'm guessing this book will go either one of two ways,

As is most often the case, it might be a bit too over the top with different units being overly powerful,

What I'm most dreading though is that its going to be mediocre at best, not bad, but not great either,

As I've heard that the reason its been pushed back to november was because of troubles in play testing I'm guessing its probably the first option,

Don't get me wrong I won't complain about having super rules but I'd much prefer the army to be more level with other armies, battles are more fun that way