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Ok, I had a question to see how some of you guys feel about this. After seeing a lot of Space Wolf rumors, Ive read both here, and on a lot of other boards, not to mention talking to guys in my local area, a lot of these guys are going to use their BA/DA/BT/UM/CSM armies as "Counts As" Space Wolf armies.

While I'm ok with armies that don't have a codex using rules from places that make sense, I just can't see sitting down to a game with a nicely painted Blood Angels army and see him using Space Wolf rules.

It's not the power of the rules, its the WYSIWYG aspect. Heck, I've played Orks since I started 40k, and by far, their rules are the ones I know the best. But, in a recent Ard Boyz tournament round, I played another Ork player who had the old Gorka Morka truks, and I tried to make him take a pinning check for bailing out of that truk, even though he had 12 models.

I mean, I looked at his model, blew it up, and I knew that truk could only hold 10 models, not 12, so he should have taken a pinning check. Of course I was wrong, but the model actually threw me off for about 5 seconds. I mean, aren't we asking for a world of confusion here?

Say you are playing a Salamander army using Wolf rules, and he has a Vulkan model he's using as Ragnar, about halfway through the game, he's re-rolling his melta guns, and his THs are master crafted.....If you think thats not going to happen, think again. After 3-4 turns, you can't really go back and fix anything, so the whole game is kinda ruined.

I understand its because people feel the new Wolves are going to be loaded, and they want to use the good rules, but my question to you guys is this; Is there a WYSIWYG issue here? How would you play it if there was a mistake made?



thanks,


Clay

Are the models WYSIWYG? If so, there is nothing wrong with it. Vulkan would prolly be a no-no unless Ragnar has a Heavy Flamer.

Yea, that's the problem with using the Wolf dex for existing Chapters. Unless your minis match up to their counterparts in terms of gear proxxy, it's not going to work. He'Stan could not be played as a "Counts As" Ragnar under the WYSIWYG rules because their weapon and wargear loadouts are completely different.

Standard marines would be fine for the most part, though there are some elements like Power Axes that are Spacewolf & Successor only weapons. Things like Characters and wargear would definately conflict a bit, but so long as you equip your Salamanders with compatable gear for both Chapters and no non-compatable characters, you should be okay.

Ok, the point is getting missed here. My example of Vulkan was poor, forget that one.


What I mean is, when you sit down to play a codex Marine list, you start formulating your plans based on the army. Its the same for Eldar/Orks/CSM/Nids/whatever. In general, you know what does what, and what units are capable of what. But when people start using Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, all as Space Wolves, the line becomes blurry.


I mean, I know that WYSIWYG is a basic wargear question. However, I think it goes deeper than that. When you field an army that is painted as Blood Angels, yet you play them as Space Wolves, then what I see, is certainly not what I am getting.

Let's assume a tournament environment for a minute. What happens if on turn 2, my opp using his BT army, passes a morale check from shooting, and moves toward my guys. However, its a mistake because he's "counts as" Space Wolves. Now, we both miss it, well, mainly because his guys actually ARE Black Templar models. So we go to turn 3. Then the mistake is realized.....how would you handle that? try and guess where the models were and move them back? The thing is, this is only a small example.


To me, it would be best to just build the army if thats what you want to play. If you want to play Soul Drinkers, and there is no codex, then thats one thing, but using BA/DA/BT/CSM/UM all as Space Wolves? Thats going to be confusing.



Clay

Let's say that I go out and I paint a nicely shaded and highlighted Space Marine army entirely in shades of gray (with the bolters done in a very, very dark shade of grey with metallic grey highlights, of course). In one tournament I submit my army as a successor army of the Blood Angels. In the next tournament, I submit my army as a successor of the Ultramarines. As long as I'm consistent while at each tournament, I see no problem.

The problem which you're describing, accidentally playing one loyalist marine type as a different type, is one I could just as easily imagine happening to someone who has more than one marine army. So I'll offer the completely facetious solution that it would be better to prevent anyone from ever owning multiple marine armies. Or better yet, prevent anyone from reading the multiple loyalist codices. After all, they're probably just going to get confused about which chapter they're collecting anyway, right? (Note: Sarcasm intended in good humor.)

Actually, the instance I describe, would best be attributed to a guy who playes his Black Templar army as Black Templars for a couple of years, then shows up a month after the SW codex comes out, and plays them as Space Wolves.


But hey, it appears this concerns noone, so maybe I'm overthinking it. When it does happen though, please remember that it was brought up as a possible issue, then discarded.



Clay

Right, so what you're really complaining about is the horrors of 'codex hopping' as opposed to the horrors of playing a Space Marine army not using the proper paint scheme. If you want to complain about the expected codex hopping which is going to happen in a few weeks, you really should just complain about it directly.

As far as whether codex hopping is annoying, I disagree with your complaints, but it's your right to feel that way.

No, you are not over-thinking it. After being one of the more Broken armies in 2nd and 3rd, we became sub standard once 4th came along. You know who the real Space Wolf players are on how long they have played them. I myself have had nothing BUT Space Wolves since I started 10 years ago and have ALWAYS used the Space Wolf Codex (Apart from 1 game in 4th which was at the behest of my opponent, so I don't count it).

I promise you as soon as the Wolf Codex comes out we will go from a Flavourful Niche army to the new Bandwaggon army.

solkan wrote:Right, so what you're really complaining about is the horrors of 'codex hopping' as opposed to the horrors of playing a Space Marine army not using the proper paint scheme. If you want to complain about the expected codex hopping which is going to happen in a few weeks, you really should just complain about it directly.

As far as whether codex hopping is annoying, I disagree with your complaints, but it's your right to feel that way.

Im not sure you are reading me right here. I could care less what army people play, thats always going to be their choice, their money, whatever. My complaint, is they will be using armies that have codexes, and are painted to those color schemes, but using them as a completely different army, thats SUPPOSED to be a different color. I feel there will be mixups, if you think they won't, then I feel like you maybe don't play enough different people. It's going to happen, I was just curious what others thought of it.

Again, to be clear for your sake, I dont care about codex hopping in the slightest, I care about mixing up rules for Black Templar armies with Space Wolf armies because they are painted as Black Templars.



Hope that clears up your confusion.


Clay

It just so happens that any time a new codex arrives it becomes the new bandwagon army. Except maybe CA. Really though, I remember a lot of new doublewing armies being built right after it came out.

If I only had the money/time to jump on every bandwagon that comes along...

Back to the OP though: I don't see any problem playing against a SW army thats painted to look like Ultrasmurfs. As long as the models are kitted out right what's the difference? If you choose not to ask your opponent what he is playing before the game that's probably your own problem. I've never played a game against a SM army, especially in a tourney, and not asked my opponent if he was playing vanilla or some other dex.

I feel ya. If you are facing an Black painted army with White trim the temptation is to treat them like Templar, not Space Wolves. If you get a couple turns down the road in a tourney and the player has been wanting to reroll to hit in CC all game and suddenly remembers he's Wolves, well you have an issue.

Of course your opponent should have gone over his army list with you and clearly explained while his Marines have white shoulder pads with big black crosses on them, they are really Wolves... if so then some of it is back on you for letting him get away with it. If not then they earned a big negative for Sports.

Okay, I do appear to have read your objection incorrectly. But, where is the requirement in each of the variant marine chapters that each marine chapter, and its successors, be painted in one specific manner, or not painted in the same manner as another chapter? I mean, just to be obnoxious someone could paint up a Space Marine army in Ultramarine colors and claim that it was Alpha Legion impersonating the Ultramarines.

Sure, you may be justified in being annoyed, but the other guy may be just as justified in calling you names because your annoyance is equally annoying. Or you could do something sensible like talk to the other guy, tell the other guy how you feel, listen to how he feels, feel really good about each other as you both grow as people, and then have a nice game. It's up to you.

Pretty sure it would be kosher at any of the game stores I go to to run regular marines as space wolfs. The only caveat would be that there be something to distinguish the special close combat units from the special ranged units.

As for using black templars and blood angels: wouldn't you want to 'counts as' too if your codex got thrown under the fifth edition bus?

Anyway, if he looks like he might take the time to adjust the models (while keeping the pretty BT or BA paint scheme he's put on) in our hypothetical situations to represent the newer things and their weapons, I'd say go for it. I mean, what are space wolves anyway? They're just marines with fur glued on.

If it's a good enough job, people usually even accept it at GTs and things right? Like the necron marines, mechanical/orky nids, etc. etc.

Also: I don't know about you guys but when I read a new codex it's kinda compartmentalized. There's going to be some overlap but the wacky, time-twisting, space-defying, and terrible new codex layouts tend to make you read through a couple of times. If he's having trouble grasping the differences at that point... you probably aren't in any danger of losing.

If an army is painted specifically as any of the printed Codex Chapters (e.g. UM, BA, BT, DA, SW) using the official colors and insignia, then I would expect it to play as such.

For example, if I see an army in Dark Angels green with winged sword insignia, white Terminators (with broken sword insigna and feathers), and black bikes (with more feathers) then it should play as Dark Angels. Or Fallen Angels, if clearly containing by obviously Chaos elements. Claiming it's a Space Wolves army simply isn't going to fly.

OTOH, if somebody has grey marines like Jervis' (now Revilers / Relictors), then they can play as whatever they like (which is what Jervis does).

The grey area would be a major variant secondary like White Scars or Raven Guard, which could play as UM with Bikes or DA Ravenwing / UM with AM or BA.

But really, if your army actually has its own Codex, and it's own models, then please play it as such to reduce confusion.

Again, to be clear for your sake, I dont care about codex hopping in the slightest, I care about mixing up rules for Black Templar armies with Space Wolf armies because they are painted as Black Templars.

For me, its a question of iconography and insignia when it comes down to tournament play.
For casual games, it should not be a problem.