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After several attempts to get into fantasy with several different armys i have finally decided to put them all together as dogs of war. However there is no really current or refined fan based codex out there.

After cruising some of the dedicated DOW websites it appears all the GW connections are down. Does anyone have a list out there, or a pdf of the allowed units published by GW?

There seems to be a commonly accepted version i cant find following the 2004 list.

Anything would be useful.

I actually got the DOW list online last night. Google "Warhammer dogs of war". the PDF was on the first page of results.

Found this on a web search:

http://www.blacklotusarts.com/capitalcitycarnage/dogs-of-war.pdf

Edit:I meant no offense by the above,after re-reading it,it comes across as a bit nasty,I didn't mean it as such. So I have edited it accordingly.

Ouch my pride hurts, unfortunately my search only brings up any dogs of war unless i search tilean. I must say my pride hurts a little that you could find something.

Buttt, as mentioned that is the 2004 list which i own. I thought gw released another list following that about what units can be used. For instance i see alot of ogre units being used by alot of new DOW players from other sites. The scary thing is the vets confirm that gw allowed it.

The Ogre Kingdoms army book states that many of their units are available as DoW units.

oh, yeah - Maneaters are quite good.

Twoshoevans,

Iffn you don't mind me asking, why DOW? Most tournaments don't allow DOW anymore (either as mercenary choices for other armies or as their own army)... and... as a whole, the army is underpowered, overcosted, and severely handicapped.

Anyway, if you have any specific DOW questions, let me know. I think I'm one of the few DOW players still around.

@LtC - you're not the only DoW player on this board, or even in this thread...

I must admit im not a tournament player. And have little urge to go to them.

I mainly like them for their flair and modeling possibilities. I thought they would be a fun army to help introduce new players to all the possibility's of warhammer. Not to mention, it will help me get over my inability to choose an army.

But the reason i am pursing the extra rules, which are currently being emailed to me, Thank you LT and todosi, is that i feel that the DOW list should be expanded. Mercenarys should be anyone, using anything under the sun.

For those who agree with me, and have a creative streak, LTcraggs has some excellent articals with some creative units.

...And a unit of pikes look bad ass

Twoshoesvans wrote:i feel that the DOW list should be expanded. Mercenarys should be anyone, using anything under the sun.

Totally agreed.

But at this point, I'd gladly settle for the 5E DOW book recosted for 7E and updated to include the Albion, SoC, and non-Human Heroes.

i hope they will make some new stuff for DOW.
the idea of mercenaries is very cool.

I want my hot pot back!! And the Halfling archers too. No Khorne Tourney WFB army is complete without them.

Am i like one of the few yahoos who doesn't compete in tournaments?

It would be nice to see them adjusted, but at the same time i hate the entire gw system. They are just going to lower points just like every other army and try to get you to buy more models to bridge the gap.

I understand its a money making system, but that isnt the way to go about it.

If anything dogs should be a creative outlet for players. Competitive with other races, but variable like the idea of mercenary's. The current list bottle necked them into a boring slump.

If you look at the actual Dakka poll data :
- the majority of people on Dakka don't play any Tournaments
- only 25% of Dakka plays 3 or more Tournaments annually

Making DoW more competitive isn't a problem, given that DoW aren't competitive at all right now.

The current list is OK for its time, IMO. The problem is that it's been completely passed over by newer higher-powered lists.

Its just my impression that gw has really geared itself towards the tournaments.

But polls dont lie.

How would dakka go about fixing the dogs?

Polls are only accurate insofar as the question and answers are well-phrased (and well-understood), and a properly-representative group of people respond to the poll. That said, the poll does an adequte (i.e. not unfair) job of gauging tournament interest on Dakka, which is probably more tournament-centric compared to the GW player base overall.

As far as "fixing" the Dogs, there have been numerous fan-based attempts, none of which matter until GW decides to make something of their own, or the overall WFB community decides to back one variant as "fair" going forward. In casual play, you do what your group agrees with, which may have no semblance to what GW or another group suggests.

Right now, there's a decent effort underway at "tilea.net" - but I'm not so sure how much traction it has outside Italy.

The biggest reason I can think of for why GW might have temporarily discontinued the DOW army is due to meta-game balancing issues.

As an army on their own, it might not be as tricky to balance the army against the rules... but once you start opening up the options for other armies to hire mercenary units, and you get to a whole new screwball thrown into game mechanics.

How does hiring units mess with game dynamics?

I believe certain armys shouldnt be able to hire certain units. I dont see how a level headed mercenary would willing get hired by a lunatic dedicated to the blood god. Lets hope by middle age, you dont have to put your hand in the fire to see if its going to hurt.

But thats already covered by alot of units.

I guess my idea of hiring mercenary's for an existing army is to help balance them out.

By design, armies are supposed to be weak at some things in exchange for being strong at others. WoC are supposed to lack Artillery in exchange for kicking ass in HtH. So any Artillery that WoC take to cover that weakness should come at a premium cost with minimal capability.

While generally slightly overpriced (and therefore punitive to DoW armies), DoW units don't carry any significant premium when taken by non-DoW armies. Thus, the current DoW For Hire mechanism doesn't really work quite right.

Twoshoesvans,

As DD said, basically armies are usually designed with a built-in balancing flaw. Elves hit hard, but can't take a punch themselves and lack staying power. Dwarfs can dish it out, and take it, but move poorly, and are often the ones absorbing a charge. Vampire Counts are huge monsters in magic and melee, but they have to rely on their ability to summon replacement troops to keep enemy units bogged down. Empire armies are generally able to do everything, but being average is quite a penalty too.

As such, having the option to hire a unit that is outside your normal arc is difficult to balance at best. Could you immagine Vampires feilding Ogers or a unit of Voland's Venators?

Within its own army DoW is alright. It's options are spread all over the place, giving it balance in that regard. But, if you let a non-DoW army have access to the entire DoW roster, you break a lot of built in balances.

The Regiments of Renoun aren't as bad, in this regard, as they are often over-priced for under-effects. But... generic DoW units are pretty much fair game for anyone, other than Brettonia. Shoot, even the Empire, a "good" army, can hire "evil" mercenaries in Oglah Khan's Wolfboys, Ruguld's Armored Orcs, and the Bearmen of Oslo.

And... for as many "lawful" contract-soldiers there are out there (such as Pinkertons and Private Security Forces), there are just as many who care less about the ramifications of their mission, and just want to get paid.

Well put!

Imagine Dwarves with Light & Heavy Cavalry, supported by Chariots... How would that be balanced?

I've felt that DoW and RoR simply don't have enough structural overhead penalties, and that overcosting by a few points simply isn't the right answer. The problem with overcosting slightly is that most armies effectively "save" a bunch of points by sticking to theme for the "good" stuff in their list. So, compared to a value-neutral balance point, overpaying slightly for an effective gap-filler leaves the army well ahead of where it would be, as now there won't be an obvious, built-in weakness for the enemy to exploit.

It's the sort of thing that requires *real* teeth to balance. For example, suppose the rule worked like this:

For Hire - any non-DoW army wishing to hire DoW (including RoR) units must first hire a DoW Commander (DoW Captain or DoW Lord) *and* a DoW Paymaster. Additional DoW units are hired per their requirements "For Hire", and will treat the DoW Commander as their General.

In effect, this does a few things that really help balance out:
- forces the non-DoW player to trade 2 native Hero slots for DoW Heroes
- forces the non-DoW player to spend extra points to take DoW
- splits the command of his army into separate elements (DoW & non-DoW)
- allows DoW units to be costed fairly in all cases

In the Vampire example, if the Vampire has a human Captain and Paymaster to manage the mercenaries, the Fluff-wise, it makes more sense.

DD has a great point with the heros options.

To fill weak points you effectively loose two hero choices, This would also help account for the crossing the good/evil line. Not to mention maintaining your fluff.

I dont believe the dogs should be made a full stand alone army in the respect of giving them a codex and disallowing the hiring option. An expanded codex would be appreciated, but to remove the hiring option in my opinion would kill some of the appeal in my opinion

Empire can't hire Oglah Khan's wolf boys.

For any of you guys that are frequent WHFB tourney go'ers.....Is it just GW tourneys that don't allow DoW, or is it most tourneys in general? If I were to start a DoW army, forgetting for a second that they are a bad army, would I be allowed to compete in the majority of non-GW tournaments or are they pretty much forgotten by everyone?

It's GW tourneys, which have the unfortunate influence on other basic tourneys.

Most non-GW tournaments wouldn't have a problem, but you'll probably need to e-mail the TO beforehand. Tell them that you're wanting to play the Chronicles 2004 list, and they should be OK with it.

Awesome, thanks a lot for the info, much appreciated