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Dissect this! I want a noob to learn game with this. I know it's short range shooting. Now with 2nd list. Which is better?

List A

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer
165

Summoned Greater Daemon (100 pts)

Troops
8 Khorne Berzerkers (278 pts)
Plasma Pistol (x2), Personal Icon,
Rhino
Skull Champion w/ Power Fist

8 Khorne Berzerkers (278 pts)
Plasma Pistol (x2), Personal Icon,
Rhino
Skull Champion w/ Power Fist

8 Summoned Lesser Daemon (104 pts)

8 Summoned Lesser Daemon (104 pts)

8 Summoned Lesser Daemon (104 pts)

Elites
8 Chosen (239 pts)
Meltagun x5
Rhino
Aspiring Champion

8 Chosen (239 pts)
Meltagun x5
Rhino
Aspiring Champion

8 Chosen (239 pts)
Meltagun x5
Rhino
Aspiring Champion

OR

List B

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer
165

Summoned Greater Daemon (100 pts)

Troops
8 Khorne Berzerkers (278 pts)
Personal Icon,
Rhino
Skull Champion w/ Power Weapon

8 Khorne Berzerkers (278 pts)
Personal Icon,
Rhino
Skull Champion w/ Power Weapon

8 Khorne Berzerkers (278 pts)
Personal Icon,
Rhino
Skull Champion w/ Power Weapon

8 Summoned Lesser Daemon (104 pts)

8 Summoned Lesser Daemon (104 pts)

Elites
7 Chosen (239 pts)
Meltagun x5
Rhino
Aspiring Champion

7 Chosen (239 pts)
Meltagun x5
Rhino
Aspiring Champion

7 Chosen (239 pts)
Meltagun x5
Rhino
Aspiring Champion

Weeellll....I woulda taken only 2 squads of chosen, 3 seems kinda like overkill. Also probly less Summoned Daemons as they are pretty weak nowadays even though they are fluffy.

If you lose some Daemons, Plas Pistols on the Zerkers and some Chosen you would be able to get more Zerkers as only 2 Squads in a 1850pt dedicated Khorne list is kinda weird.

Also one more thing you really will need maybe a little more long range AT in that. You have nothing that will do anything to tanks at less than 6" which could be bit of an achilles heel.

Sorry for all the criticism, I like the list and it's very Khorney but you probly need more zerkers and less extras.

The 2nd List is the better, but 3 Squads of chosen seems like alot. Maybe one squad can switch out to provide some fire support?

So units of outflanking CSM with x5 meltaguns isn't fire support? Altough it be from close range.

On a optimal turn 2, daemons, chosen and bezerker hit enemy lines popping tanks and charging. Granted not every reserve roll will be made, but something will.

If your enemy has no tanks, those chosen are going to be useless.

Khorne always have problems with anti-tank.

The main problem with this list is that its got no big threats, those rhinos are gonna be dead turn one and without support the chosen will be isolated and picked off.

Chosen are never useless. Last time I looked meltaguns kill troops, too.

Chosen don't have to outflank. They can deploy regularly.

Everything is based off opponent's list and who deploys/go first.

I would definitely go with the 2nd list. You always want your marines to outnumber your summoned demons. The demons are very useful in tying stuff up, but they are NOT long-lasting so that 1st list will cause you problems- you may find yourself out of troops VERY quickly.

About that Chosen- I love them, they are a very nasty surprise. The problem is very few people use them and even fewer use them right. I do think 15 meltas IS a bit much- I would suggest changing the 3rd squad to all flamers and use it as a "breeching" unit. Roll up, hop out, BBQ a section of the enemy line then charge in and dismember the survivors. The 2 melta squads are more then enough to handle any armor.

Well, lets be frank Meltaguns aren't exactly designed to take out hundreds of guardsmen are they?! If the enemy field infantry are you gonna want your (250pts) chosen killing, say 3 or 4 (6-10pts) standard troops a turn?!

Why dont you try the old hammer and anvil tactic: Zerkers in Rhinos act as Hammer, whilst you have termies and oblit's dropping in behind (or where needed) to act as anvil, although I'll admit that obliterators arent exactly khorne-like and it differs from your lists...

but I agree with the rest, the chosen are the main problem within the list - although yes theyre mounted, but if the chosen's rhinos get destroyed you could have a major problem getting near enemy tanks... I like the troops and HQ and the 3 Daemons are good in my books, but then there are the chosen... sort out the chosen and your sorted IMHO. good luck

Madgod wrote:

If you lose some Daemons, Plas Pistols on the Zerkers and some Chosen you would be able to get more Zerkers as only 2 Squads in a 1850pt dedicated Khorne list is kinda weird.

Agreed.

I also think 15 melta is a ton and that one of those may be better off flamers. Many guard player are surrounding their tanks with cannon fodder now.

I don't think there is much utility to 7 man chosen squads. I think the extra points could be better spent.

The plasma pistols on your zerkers need to go!

Also, I don't really think Kharn does anything for you in this list that a winged DP or two wouldn't do, but it's really personal preference I guess.

Even though it hurts me to say it...it might be better to run list 2 and only have 5 man squads of Chosen (because 8 is khorne's number and it's perfect!), and use the extra points to buy yourself a flying DP for another HQ choice and big monstery goodness.

Take a Winged Prince instead of the Summed greater deamon. that is an easy swap

I understand the 5 man units of Chosen. I added couple guys to be ablative wounds. Flamers are option.

What I don't understand is the comments of greater and lesser daemons. You all know they can assault the turn they come in, right? Winged Prince is cool, but he will get shot up on way in.

Chosen have ability to outflank. Doesn't mean they have to. Just need a reliable way to crack transports.

Main reason for this list. Picture going 12" and popping smoke on turn 1. Summoned daemons and outflanking Chosen come on turn 2 joining Berserkers for a big bang in opponents lines. Obviously, won't go the way it's planned, but you see the potential.

I'm trying to make a viable list for friend. He doesn't like Defilers and wants some anti-tank.

Trying to make fluffy Khorne, but that is lost on some of you guys.

The GD is awesome, and he's much more effective if you use a large vehicle like a land raider to house the possessee, so that the GD can deploy within 2" of the hatches, and then assault. Obviously the Land Raider's larger footprint gives the GD more distance. A single Land Raider transporting a squad of berzerkers would give you some decent anti-tank and a big hard target as well.

The main thing about your list is that I think in either case, you're better off with 3x squads of zerkers rather than 2, and I'd bet that if you take out the 3x Lesser Demons for another Berzerker squad in a rhino, it would be that much better.

Also, running a unit of possessed with Kharn gives them a chance to avoid being killed by his errant swings, (5+ save and all) and still gives you a relatively cheap Aspiring Champion for the GD to possess.

Finally, a note on defilers. The defiler model is ugly, but their utility on the battlefield cannot be denied. The battlecannon, heavy flamer and autocannon is a solid set up, and the fleet really helps them move around. To combat the ugly model, buy a Soulgrinder instead and use it as your defiler.

Well take out a Chosen squad and add more zerkers apart from that it seems good.

I like the second list for a "fluffy" list. I agree chosen are great. I'm too tired to comment much further :(

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:

What I don't understand is the comments of greater and lesser daemons. You all know they can assault the turn they come in, right? Winged Prince is cool, but he will get shot up on way in.

I think "No", Scott...

Actually I would have to check to be sure but i don't think lesser demons can assault the turn they arrive. I know, for sure, that Chaos Demons (as in the army) cannot do that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and winged princes that make use of cover in turn one and possibly turn two do not get shot to pieces. They are a big menacing unit but you still have to play well with them.

So many comments are based on lack of knowledge of the codex. :(

Yes, I know berserkers are better than lesser daemons. The daemons are summoned off an icon, so no scatter, and charging right away. Sorta like a first wave crashing.

Idea behind army is for it to hit opponent's line turn 2-3 all together.

On defilers...I like them, my buddy doesn't. I like to arm with x2 ccw's and send them off. Either it's firing battlecannon or fleeting. Nice little threat til berzerkers get there.

I have a x3 Land Raider version of army, but want to get it on table quicker to show power of Khorne to friend.

there it is on page 61 under summoning demons! so they can assault the turn they arrive from reserves they just can't move any further in the movement phase. Well I'll be.

I always knew I should have collected that biker demon bomb list!

Well, I suppose that I'll ring in on this list. I agree that 15 melta guns is good fire support, but they have to be within 6" to really be affective. Outflanking is good, but you're going to come onto the table from a side and then he can just light you up with Lascannons (Well, I'm thinking me at this point total). Rhinos pop very easily with an armor value of 11. I only run Land Raiders with my army (Daemonhunters), and if you go up against something like that... those Chosen would be the only thing I focus on. From what I see, Kharn is going to walk, and that Summoned Daemon is going to pop out of one of your champions. Reserves are sketchy, giving me maybe two free turns to light up the rest of your army while the major branch is in reserve (The Chosen, Summoned GD, Lesser Daemons).

Are Land Raiders in a Khorne list not Fluffy? I thought that they were, and they offer a lot of support for this kind of list... When I run my zerkers I love to put them inside Land Raiders. Was there a reason you didn't have them? Or maybe your friend doesn't like those either.

Well, I mentioned x3 LR thought.

Problem with LR's is the fact that either you move to deliver berzerkers or termies or stay put and fire lascannons.

Sad that Chaos LR's don't have a machine spirit equivilant.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Well, I mentioned x3 LR thought.

Problem with LR's is the fact that either you move to deliver berzerkers or termies or stay put and fire lascannons.

Sad that Chaos LR's don't have a machine spirit equivilant.

Yes with Landraiders against Vulkan meltaspam your gonna need to sit there gaking your pants shooting at speeders and other Landraiders.

I think you need 3x 8x berzerkers, Champ, PF, Rhino without Landraiders drop a Chosen squad or if you dont drop it then turn one chosen squad to plasmaguns.

Plasmaguns can rip up TH/SS termies after they killed a squad.