"Dramatic" saving throw rolls?

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**Major Malfunction**

Now I know this isn't a black and white rule but I wanted to see how Dakka plays it. How do you guys do this?

During a game your opponent has to make half a dozen saving throws. For dramatic effect they start rolling them one at a time.

Time waster? Rule breaker? OK and fun?

**Sgt.Sunshine**

Rolling them one at a time would take forever, I rather just get it over with

Also I can't remember where I heard it, but I believe it's supposedly possible to manipulate a single roll in your favour and give yourself better chances of rolling what you want.

**Gwar!**

It depends. If it is for Joe Bloggs Gaunt Squad, roll them all at once. If it is for an epic one on one between Logan Grimnar and Skarband the Exiled, roll one at a time

**Ridcully**

90% of the time all should be rolled at the same time, and that's purely from a time wasting point of view. I've had the odd opponent who is determined to take 10 saves on their terminators one at a time, kissing his special die between rolls. If i know there's going to be at least a few casualties i'll allow it.

**GiantKiller**

I don't see how this is an opportunity for dice manipulation, unless they could only afford one loaded die.

-GK

**Centurian99**

I hate players that do this. I usually convince them not to by taking one of their dice and rolling 5 of 8 sixes in a row (or more).

**Thor665**

We have one or two of these in my local game area and I tend to try not to play them simply due to the time expenditure. I suppose I'll agree with Gwar!'s sentiments - if someone wanted to do it for a IC vs. IC brawl...well okay. But if they do it for anything else I'll be somewhat put out.

Edit: though considering how it's worded - before I vote I'll note that rolling singly doesn't provide a chance for die manipulation to my mind unless my opponent is using one die to target a die that already failed and hoping to knock it onto a success number (which is something we did have a local player do back when I played Heroclix)

**willydstyle**

Rolling one or two dice at a time can be a sign that the person is "controlling" his rolls.

**Gwar!**

GiantKiller wrote:I don't see how this is an opportunity for dice manipulation, unless they could only afford one loaded die.

http://win-warhammer-40k.blogspot.com/2008/12/dice-rolling-101.html

**Black Blow Fly**

If it is an important part of the game like a SM hero taking iron halo saves from a power fist I have no problem with it at all. It's exciting so let your opponent have some fun. For normal saves please roll them all together as that could really un neededly lengthen the game quite a bit.

G

**Lordhat**

When it's truly dramatic, roll one at a time. If it's just a bunch of saves for a unit during the course of the game, take them one at a time, but only if I get to slug you in the arm for each die......

**Centurian99**

The simple fact is that rolling dice one at a time allows players to exert more control over the outcome of the roll.

That's one of the reasons why in Vegas they require you to hit the rails when you're playing craps.

In a friendly game of 40K, why open yourself to speculation that you're cheating?

**Cryonicleech**

I'm fine with dramatic dice rolling.

**GiantKiller**

Gwar! wrote:http://win-warhammer-40k.blogspot.com/2008/12/dice-rolling-101.html

Thanks Gwar. Maybe it's naive of me to think this, but I get the impression from reading articles on "trained" or "practiced" dicerolling that it would be pretty easy to spot if one were paying attention... unless you're up against a real pro at it (who should be using his skills in vegas, not on the 40k tables).

Nevertheless, I'll probably start bringing my duff-beer dice shakers (from the Simpsons duff dice game) and offering my opponent a duff if I suspect he's trying something like this.

-GK

**Lord of battles**

Gwar! wrote:It depends. If it is for Joe Bloggs Gaunt Squad, roll them all at once. If it is for an epic one on one between Logan Grimnar and Skarband the Exiled, roll one at a time

Totally agreeing with Gwar!

**JD21290**

Against basic squads, all at once to save a lot of time.

in a heroic match (character Vs character) sometimes 1 at a time is fine.

but when vulkan is charged by a swarm of nobz then all at once since i dont have all day

**Major Malfunction**

Pg 20 pretty much says you roll all saves for like models in one go. Sure it's fun when you have an epic clash between Yarrick and Ghazkul Thraka, but when my Shoota Boyz put 9 wounds on your Space Marine Captain just roll them and get it over with, OK?

I'm fairly certain dice manipulation can and does occur especially during tournaments. Rolling dice one or two at a time makes this easy to do. Rolling half dozen at a time makes it much, much harder. There's a reason people use dice towers in games like ASL.

**Black Blow Fly**

I don't think dice manipulation occurs that often but maybe I am being naive.

G

**Major Malfunction**

Green Blow Fly wrote:I don't think dice manipulation occurs that often but maybe I am being naive.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it happens *often* but I do think it happens. The problem with dice manipulation is it's very hard to spot if you are not looking for it.

The best way to handle it IMHO is just remove the circumstances for it entirely. Making multiple saves all at once instead of just one at a time does this because it's hard to do with more than two or three dice. Dice cups and dice towers are the best way to go as they remove the human-dice contact beyond the point of entry and ensure the dice all get tossed the same way.

**Razerous**

Im fiiine with singular rolls, on matters that count (last chance to shoot a lascannon at that contesting monolith.. etc) buuuut;

Only if the play cups one hand, puts the dice into the hand, cups his second hand over the first, shake vigerously, then roll.

Im not stupid, I understand how a player can roll sepecific numbers and I wont stand for it.

**DogOfWar**

Voted B.

It's not a huge deal for me personally, since to date I've never come across a dice manipulator (or have I?...), but I can definitely understand the frustration. You're instructed to roll all of them at once, however, so unless there's a really good reason not to, I'd say roll them together.

A related pet peeve, however, is people who roll 5 or 6 wounds on a 2+ save, save them all, and then act like it was a blessing from the gods (kissing dice, looking upwards adoringly at the heavens, etc) that they didn't roll any 1s. There's a guy at my FLGS who does this every time. I'm not sure if maybe he just doesn't understand the odds, but it gets rather obnoxious after the 10th time.

Sorry that was a bit random.

DoW

**waaagh!orksrocks**

I (as I always do (so far)) agree with gwar

oh and feel free to quote that

**willydstyle**

DogOfWar wrote:Voted B.

It's not a huge deal for me personally, since to date I've never come across a dice manipulator (or have I?...), but I can definitely understand the frustration. You're instructed to roll all of them at once, however, so unless there's a really good reason not to, I'd say roll them together.

A related pet peeve, however, is people who roll 5 or 6 wounds on a 2+ save, save them all, and then act like it was a blessing from the gods (kissing dice, looking upwards adoringly at the heavens, etc) that they didn't roll any 1s. There's a guy at my FLGS who does this every time. I'm not sure if maybe he just doesn't understand the odds, but it gets rather obnoxious after the 10th time.

Sorry that was a bit random.

DoW

The chances of rolling at least one "1" on 6d6 is about 68%. Granted, the 32% chance to pass them all is not horrible, it's also not reliable.

**Webbe**

willydstyle wrote:The chances of rolling at least one "1" on 6d6 is about 68%. Granted, the 32% chance to pass them all is not horrible, it's also not reliable.

Almost. It's 33.49% to make 6 of 6 2+ saves, (5/6)^6

**EasyE**

Or you could use a computer or other automated dice roller and get the best of both worlds.

However, I still voted B.

**Melonfish**

If its so many that you have to roll more then 4 dice the odds are your toast anyway, just roll em all at once and save an hour in dice rolls for the game

**DogOfWar**

Webbe wrote:
willydstyle wrote:The chances of rolling at least one "1" on 6d6 is about 68%. Granted, the 32% chance to pass them all is not horrible, it's also not reliable.

Almost. It's 33.49% to make 6 of 6 2+ saves, (5/6)^6

Ah okay, that's quite a bit more likely than I imagined.

Now that I think about it, I would say he probably just thinks about all saves the same way on principal. Makes sense because he also always seems surprised when I fail my 5+ much more often than his 3+ or 2+. I may not be up on my combinatorics but at least I understand a 2+ should not be failing the same amount as a 5+!

Anyway, thank you for the number crunching. Always interesting!

DoW

**dumplingman**

completely depends. As a dark eldar player I have to roll them all individually. As a shadow field is negated after the first failed save. That being said if I'm being hit with a weapon that causes instant death I roll them all at once. Otherwise its a waste of time.

**Lordhat**

dumplingman wrote:completely depends. As a dark eldar player I have to roll them all individually. As a shadow field is negated after the first failed save. That being said if I'm being hit with a weapon that causes instant death I roll them all at once. Otherwise its a waste of time.

That's an interesting POV, and maybe worth a new thread. My roomate and I play it the opposite way: as all saves are resolved simultaneously, you just roll the group, and if any 1's are rolled, then the NEXT group of saves are taken without the benefit of the shadowfield. Going to start a new thread on this to see what Dakka thinks is the proper method.

**SlaveToDorkness**

most of the time I see it as a time waster or a dick move, depending on the opponent.