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So I played a tournament today, went 2 and 1, the two games I won were massacres against eldar and crimson fists, respectively. The third game I played was against a guy running a nob biker list.

The list was basically lootas in cover, two squads of boys (interwoven to give them all cover saves, technically rules legal but still a little iffy I guess), and the cheese nob bikers.

What this basically is, for the uneducated, is a 8 man nob squad with individualized wargear, about 3 power claws, a painboy, all sorts of wargear upgrades, a warboss with a power claw, and Wazdakka.

What this gives you is (because of the individualized wargear), a squad that has to take 10 wounds before you have to start removing models, 4+ normal/4+ cover/5+ invulnerable/4+ feel no pain saves, toughness 5, weaponskill and strength 5 and 6, and power claws, on bikes, with twin linked 30(?) shots at strength 5 ap 5, assault, 4 twin linked str 8 AP 4 shots (also assault). Any instant death wounds that would kill the nobs you can throw on the boss OR wazzdakka, who have toughness 5, and can take about 3 or 4 of them.

Pretty much the only counter to this unit is to Lash and Vindicate them. It's 1068 points for this unit, takes up 2/3rs of the army list in a 1500 point game, and is a scoring unit since Wazzdakka allows bikes to be taken as troops choices. I ended up throwing a full squad of marines with a lash sorceror, a demon prince, and a defiler at this squad and killed only a single model, and ONLY because I got a force weapon kill.


What are your views on this? Personally I am going to adamantly refuse to play anyone running this list just right off the bat. Was almost able to force a tie but the bikers were far too ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT

Woop, just realized this would probably do better in the 40k general forum, if this isn't moved soon I'll delete it and repost (if I can).

Watch him play a Chaos Lash list and laugh at him the entire time as he gets tabled with ease.

They were huge last year in tourneys, but have lost a lot of luster as folks figured out how to play against them.

Since the Space Marine Codex came out, a squad of Termies w/ Storm Shield and Thunderhammer is a fantastic counter; a lot cheaper and a lot more durable. Put them in a Land Raider and get them stuck in against the Nob Bikers. Nobz get insta killed quickly as the best they can have is a 5+ inv save against the Termies.

Also, Wazdakka won't make Nob Bikers a Troop Choice. Only way for Nob Bikers to be a Troop choice is by including an Ork Warboss (or Ghaz).

But, if you are playing Chaos and are playing with Lash, you can easily corral this unit and either Vindicator, Defiler, Obliterator them into non existence.

Better luck next time.

not that big a threat... as others have said, I pack enough an assault squad with 4x hammers led by a chaplain... The key to winning the assault against nobz is to assault with not only terminators, but a tactical squad as well.

get the tactical squad in base to base with his choppas/big choppas in the nob squad so they can soak up those wounds... get your terminators in base with his powerklaws... he can either ignore the tac squad, and swing his claws at the terminators, kill them, or swing at the tac squad, ignoring the terminators. In either case, for each unsaved thunder hammer wound you deal, he takes 2 wounds effectively, so he's not winning this combat. Hopefully, you deal enough wounds to knock him under half strength, he falls back and breaks, he cannot regroup.

your net cost is at most ~450 points or so, and only about half of it will die probably. (unless things go wrong)

<just read your chaos... guess that strat won't really help you much... maybe instead of TH/SS terminators, use close combat dreadnoughts. thats not such a bad idea, actually... they get what, 4 attacks on the charge? str10 instant kills everything, bosses included... maybe just switch the order of who attacks what... CSM attack claws, tie most of them up, dreads swing on the bosses... next round when most of your CSM are dead, dreads swing on the nobz and knock most of them out...>

Yeah I didn't want to be cheese and I have no vindicators so I didn't run the list but I may next time. Funnily enough there was a Lash list at the same tourney that actually lost 2/3 games.

Dreads are good, definitely considering going that route. I think the problem was that I built the army for flexibility, which served me really well up until I came up against a super cheese list like that.

The list you played didn't sound that cheesy at all really. The cheesiest nob biker lists have:

2x Warboss on Bike
2x 10 Nobz on bikes with gear (4-5 powerklaws)

Min troops (usually grotz) that come in from reserve, and whatever other nicknacks they can throw in.

The bikers usually have all manner of rokkits and what not and have a mean multi-charge that can mess up vehicles and the like.

So basically, this guy was nice to you and only brought one biker list. An 8 man squad suffers from leadership problems quickly if you can make them test.

Moving thread to Tactics.

Nob biker list is still nasty if it goes off right but it is only going to kill 5 units in a game. Most people I play with will rapid fire them and let them do what they are going to do. Yep, a group of thundershield terms in a LRC will be their down fall. Or a couple squads of Oblits firing plasma cannons, poof and the bikes start removing models. Not as scary as a BW, killer can rodeo.

If you're playing chaos dual lash armies usually wipe the floor with them. You can lash them into a bundle and drop plasma cannon templates on them, ignoring their FNP, or you can lash the into a long line and charge them so that only a few bikers of your choice can fight you.

Dual lash w/ khorne zerkers is a good counter. Also, Vindicators and Battle Cannons work wonders (they fail their 5+ invun or cover saves and they lose 1 model, str 8/10 ftw!)

Also, as nids, I tool them pretty easily with barbed stranglers on my fex's.

Pipboy101 wrote:Nob biker list is still nasty if it goes off right but it is only going to kill 5 units in a game.

Uh...what?

whitedragon wrote:

Pipboy101 wrote:Nob biker list is still nasty if it goes off right but it is only going to kill 5 units in a game.

Uh...what?

I think this is referring to there only being (approx) 6 turns in a game, and the 1st will be spent zooOOooming towards the foe. After that, they will destroy 1 enemy unit per turn.

He is forgetting to take multi-assault into account.

Diversified Nobs in battlewagons are nastier, because they hit just as hard, for cheaper, and are better protected vs lash, vindies, etc.

Meanest list i've ever played against:
Warboss
KFF mek

10 nobz + WB and KFF mek in killkannon battlewagon
40 Boyz in 2 HS battlewagons
12 lootas in a killkannon HS battlewagon

Pretty much wrecked my chaos list.

Battlewagon nobz are okay but they are not as good as nob bikerz...

T5/4
greater movement
turbo boost cover save
4+ cover save
dakka gunz

G

Killkannon > Dakka Guns
T4(5) is pretty much meaningless except vs guardsmen and assault marines. Anything that Nob bikers are vulnerable to completely ignores that.
Can't be shot at because you're in a vehicle > Cover save
Cheaper > More Expensive.

Thanks for moving this!


Yeah, I also realized I got pretty unlucky, the battle cannon shots I fired all missed and my lash sorc got killed early in the game. I also chose to deep strike my terminators and obliterators, which in retrospect wasn't the best idea.

I just dislike fighting lists like it because it forces you to go to extremes to counter this one super powerful unit that takes up 2/3 of his points. If you don't field appropriate counter units (and there are few) you have to just sort of take it like a man.

A vindicator will ruin nob biker's day, as will lash of submission, force weapons, power fists, battle cannons, obliterators, missile launchers, meltas, slaaneshi daemon weapons, abbaddon's daemon weapon, etc. You had access to all of these, just add a vindie or two to your list and you'll be money.

ARRRGH wrote:and Wazdakka.

Whyyyyy did he bring Wazdakka with him? The nob biker squad dosn't need him sitting in there. Warboss lets nobs (even nob bikers) be taken as troops.

Otherwise this unit is in fact very mean, even at only 8 guys....technically 10 with boss and waz (I'm still not sure why he took him, I mean he's leadership 9 and brings his own bosspole, but there had to be three bosspoles in the nob group). What you want to do is hit the unit with low AP guns, because AP2 will ignore FNP, and all he can take on that is his Invulnerable save. Donno if a Vindicator is a good idea though, because after you hit them with the cannon, if they live, you will have 5 power klaws wailing on your vindi's rear armor. Maybe, if there were ever a time to use a plasma-cannon or a plasma gun, this would be it

Edit: Oooo, or a Defiler, a deffie will mess them up good, because (barring lootas killing it first) the Nobs will have a horrible time trying to kill it.

Except plasma doens't ID then, which is what you HAVE to do to get rid of them.

List sounds illegal rather than cheesey
Wazdakka allows bikes as troops, not nob bikers.
To make them troop you would need a warboss

I tend to charge into them in combat with massed power weapon attacks (lightning claws are very nice)
If i dont have a unit close enough ill drop a S10 plate on them via a vindicator.
Or, if they have nothing that warrents a lascannon, ill fire 3 into the unit rather than waste them on something smaller.

they may be pretty fast, but against power weapons they tend to strike last anyway, and only get the 5++ save.
So either a character with a power weapon + his unit (assault vets) with some power weapons, which work wonders.

5 assault termies with claws tear through them pretty easily.

Or if its a small ish nob unit (under 8 models) ill throw 10 death company + a chappy at them.


Plenty of ways to kill them, but by far either S10 or power weapons striking 1st work the best.

shooting wise with anything else, i dont usually bother.

Plasma Cannons can inflict multiple hits though, which is handy.

Something important to remember is which weapons to fire: you don't want the Instant Death hits being piled on a single nob.

Nob Bikes... meh.

I think the shine has really come off of them now that they've been exposed and people have figured out how they work and how to play against them.

JD21290 wrote:List sounds illegal rather than cheesey
Wazdakka allows bikes as troops, not nob bikers.
To make them troop you would need a warboss

He said the enemy had two squads of boyz as well. So definetely legal.

White, that was said in response to him saying they guy made bikernobz troops due to wazdakka

JD21290 wrote:
To make them troop you would need a warboss

I thought there was a warboss in there. :S

Anyways, I didn't think about lightning claw terminators, but it should work. Or anybody who has rending would also be good.

Edit: I just remembered that Waz's gun is NOT twin linked, but with 4 shots it might as well be.

I was just going by the origional post to start with.
didnt want him thinking that waz makes bikernobz troops (like said)


Rending attacks work well, but you need alot of them to be effective (death company have 4 each on the charge at S5)

Lightning claws just tear them apart.
Only problem is though, 20 claw attacks wont really tear apart a unit of 10.
So of course, you would need to go for either

a: Multi units in combat to help out.
or
b: shoot them a little 1st, even putting a few wounds on them will help out alot.

Wolf claws should kill biker nobz

statu wrote:Wolf claws should kill biker nobz

UGH! No No No No No No.

To kill Biker Nobz, you need a way past their FNP/Inv AND you need to be S8+ to remove whole models instead of allowing the ork player to spread wounds around. Otherwise, you need to score 11 wounds before a biker gets pulled, and they'll get a 5+ INV most of the time due to their cybork body. You also need to be tough enough to withstand all the biker attacks coming back at you.

-TH/SS Termies, Dreads, and Ironclads are good.
-Bloodthirster is good
-Tyranids with implant attack are good

In shooting, anything that is S8+ and low AP is also good.

Otherwise, you will get rolled by the bikers. Please study up:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/222854.page

I think you mean BLOOD CLAWS. I think a big enough group of blood claws could put some hurt on nob bikers, but it'd be close....too risky, I'd rather shoot them with something.

It's well and good talking about counters but I DID have a few counter units to this.

I had a Defiler, a lash sorc with a force weapon, terminators, oblits, and about three powerfists stuck in marine squads. Bad playing lost me the game in the end I think, I miscalculated how resilient that unit would be.

The thing is, EVEN IF you hit it with a vindi or defiler artillery shot, you're assuming you're going to 1. Hit the unit (depends on BS), 2. Wound a lot of models (which if he is a real douche and keeps it in coherency (2"), you're going to get like 1-2), and 3. He fails his cover save. You're forgetting he always gets a cover save (4+) even in the open, and turbo boosting gets a 3+ with Wazzdakka still being able to fire his 4 str 8 ap 4 shots. So even if you get lucky and cause, say, 4 instant death wounds with a battle cannon on his mob, he's going to stick one on the warboss and one on Wazzdakka, and two on bikers. 2 of them will save, ~3 if they're turbo boosting. If the boss or Wazz fail, it's just a wound on a 3 wound model that he can keep sticking instant death wounds on. If the bikers fail, then it's only 1-2 bikers that you're losing out of a 10 man unit that probably still has power klaws.

Termies would do ok against it on the charge I guess, fire combi meltas for instant death, then power weapon attacks to put a lot of wounds on the squad, and the armor to eat choppas. Force weapon did fine until he cleaved through enough of my basic models to murder my sorceror. Plasma cannons from the oblits are going to get maybe 1-2 wounds and not instant death the models so it's useless. Most shooting is pretty useless against it, and if you try to engage the mob in CC it's like 40+ str 5 and 6, ws5 choppa attacks and 4 power klaws. Dreadnaughts get destroyed by the klaws and only kill ~1 model. My defiler in CC wasn't able to do jack since he made two invuln saves.

Sure you COULD build a counter list to. I'd personally just take 3 vindicators, twin lash princes or maybe a lord with the blissgiver, termies, oblits, and dreadnaughts, maybe plague marines with a powerfist. It's still not something I'd usually take to a tournament.