Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been getting a lot of replies on other threads and there seems to be a general feel that you should take a heavy weapon in a tactical squad for free/cheep then take a specialized squad. Do you use Dev squads? Why don't you? Is there a time to pick them? When is it? When do Dev squads become a viable choice over a heavy weapon in your Tact Squad?

I assuming a lot of replies along the lines of when you have a higher point army list, but you know discussion is good.

Yes, when they're Long Fangs (per the rumors) Once Devestators get rationally priced weapon choices you'll see them (or some more effective special rule then a single BS 5 shot per turn).

To answer your specific questions: No they're not good, other heavy support choices are simultaneously better and cheaper. Additionally anything Devestators can do other units in the army also have access too, whereas certain heavy support options are uniquely armed (whirlwind, vindicator, Thunderfire).

Jack

Devastators can give you three units for one slot (two combat squads and a dedicated transport), are more likely to destroy what they shoot at (one heavy weapon is hit or miss, two is alright, three is reliable, and four is causing harm), and their Sergeant has a Signum for BS5 on a Heavy Weapon.

If there is ever a time when you have units on foot, that you really don't want your enemy to shoot at, a devastator squad in combat squads (spaced as far apart from each other and your foot units as possible) is an amazingly useful distraction

With the spacewolf longfangs hell yes I think that those squads will be worth it. But at the points devs are now, no.

Pretty much as above. The right time is when the next SM codex gets released. Till then stick with your tac squad upgrades or your vehicles.

They are just to expensive of a unit to do anything effective.

When you're playing Planetstrike Defense.

Take them with 2 heavy weapons (so both can shoot) and put em in a bastion--better defense against the firestorm than weapons, and they have heavier armor than anything but a landraider.

I like 4 missiles in a 10-man Devastator squad for the following reasons. If I play against an armor 10-12 heavy list, I will split the Dev's into combat squads of 2 missiles each. This allows me the opportunity to take out two of the enemy armor 10-12 transports a turn. If I play against an IG list with Squadrons (or an Ork, Eldar squadron, but IG are much more common), I will leave the Dev's as a 10-man squad. Sending 4 missiles into the Squadron or Valk's, Vendetta's, Hellhound, etc.. will cause more damage to the squadron and prevent my single troop lascannons from affecting the same vehicle over and over again.

the main problem with a 10 man 4 missile dev squad is that its just not cost effective....

you want heavy anti-tank fire? A predator with autocannon/lascannon offers the same firepower as a dev squad with 4 missiles against tanks (4 shots with average of 8 strength) for half the cost... so you can double your firepower by taking 2 predators. odds are good your opponent will be able to shake one of them, true, but your still getting as much fire out of the other one as a dev squad would put out...

sure, devs w/ missile launchers may be good against infantry as well, but again, other units do it better.. a squadron of 2 typhoons is less points than your dev squad, and puts out equal firepower + heavy bolters, and offers alot more mobility. sure, they die easier, but still, i'd rather have typhoons than devastators.

Horst wrote:the main problem with a 10 man 4 missile dev squad is that its just not cost effective....

you want heavy anti-tank fire? A predator with autocannon/lascannon offers the same firepower as a dev squad with 4 missiles against tanks (4 shots with average of 8 strength) for half the cost... so you can double your firepower by taking 2 predators. odds are good your opponent will be able to shake one of them, true, but your still getting as much fire out of the other one as a dev squad would put out...

sure, devs w/ missile launchers may be good against infantry as well, but again, other units do it better.. a squadron of 2 typhoons is less points than your dev squad, and puts out equal firepower + heavy bolters, and offers alot more mobility. sure, they die easier, but still, i'd rather have typhoons than devastators.

Yes it might be true that certain cariets of Predators are as good in the anti-tank role for fewer points and yes it might be true that other units might be better at anti-infantry, but no unit can do both like the 4-missile Dev's can. It actually saves points because you don't have to spend points on 2 units for what the 1 dev unit can do. The Dev's also get a much better chance at 4+ cover than any vehicle can. Typhoons are great for shooting, but horrible for survivability.

It is also dangerous to put to many extreme units in your army list. In that I mean 1-2 units that are fantastic anti-tank, but nothing else. They do not do as well vs. no tank armies and can be singled out vs. tank armies. The Dev's are much more multi-purpose and can excel vs. anything. If an army fields more dual purpose units it is very hard for the enemy to eliminate the anti-tank or anti-troop from a given list. To many times I see army lists that have single purpose units. These units are better at their single purpose than most other units. A savy enemy will eliminate those units that prey on his weaknesses and leave the other single purpose units alone. I prefer as many multi-purpose units as I can get. They might not be the best at killing tanks or thining out hordes, but they can do both and my ability to deal with tanks or hordes is not greatly dimished if I lose a few of them. If I had specialized units in my army, then a few well placed shots could cripple my ability to deal with a certain variety of enemy units. That would leave me in a bad situation for the rest of the game.

Generally, I don't use them.
First, there is cover almost everywhere on the board in these days.
Second, the armor penetration table has changed so that its harder to take down tanks.
Third, it may happen that your army charges forward and the Dev's hang back.
For my 13th Company that meant that the Long Fangs had practically nothing to do from round 3 on since the whole enemy army was locked in cc.

In the last RTT, I played DW and had the choice between 10 Dev's with 4 missile launchers or 6 RW Bikers.
I took the Bikers and I didn't regret it.

Personally (YMMV) if i want 4 missile i think i would be taking Terminators ... double the cost of the devs but ....

+ Move and shoot
+ all have Power Fists
+ all have Storm Bolters
+ 2+ Save
+ Can deep strike

... but then that's only if you really want missile launchers just run with meltas & Assault cannons, you won't go far wrong.

I rather like Devastators with Plasma Cannons myself. One of my Devastator squads is the four Missile Launcher kind, and the other is 50/50 Plasma Cannons and Multi-Meltas. The latter split into combat squads so that they can juice a transport and then plasmafry the previous occupants. Sure, they'll get a cover save from the wreckage, but that's okay: that's all they get when they're hit with Plasma.

When I ran Raven Guard out of the old codex, they were really my only viable heavy support.

Four plasma cannons still put the fear of the Emperor in to the enemy. It may not be points efficient, but it sure has its moments... and when they see all that plasma they have a fire magnet value equal to a land raider while being far more survivable.

One Devastator Squad can fill 3 rolls

I use 3 Devastator Squads in my 2nd company

Two 10 man Devastator Squads with 4 Plasma Cannons and a Razorback with Twin Linked Las Cannon
One 10 Man Devastator Squad with 4 Heavy Bolters and a Razorback with Twin Linked Las Cannon

That is
-Two Combat Squads with 4 Plasma Cannons
-Two Combat Squads
-Two Combat Squads with Two Heavy Bolters
-Three Predator Lights

Anpu42 wrote:One Devastator Squad can fill 3 rolls

I use 3 Devastator Squads in my 2nd company

Two 10 man Devastator Squads with 4 Plasma Cannons and a Razorback with Twin Linked Las Cannon
One 10 Man Devastator Squad with 4 Heavy Bolters and a Razorback with Twin Linked Las Cannon

That is
-Two Combat Squads with 4 Plasma Cannons
-Three Combat Squads
-Two Combat Squads with Two Heavy Bolters
-Three Predator Lights

And this is why i take my Ranger pathfinders pop the plasma first then move on to the bolters.

That's the nice thing about Devastators: they're not Troops, and they're more dangerous than Tactical Squads, so you're left with the choice of shooting the Tactical Squads first and leaving yourself open to the Devastator's return fire, or shooting the Devastators first and leaving the Tactical Squads alive to score.

Like Flavius has mentioned, 5 man dev squad with max heavy weapons is the best unit I can think of to put in a bastion.

According to the BGB, fire points in buildings generally allow two models to fire per fire point. So on the facings of bastions with three fire points you could, by RAW fire six shots. At my house we call the slit on the bottom floor of the bastion a 2-model fire point and the arrow slits on the second floor single model fire points. That gives you enough for 3.

Nothing wrong with open-topping your bastion and putting the devs on top as well, its not really that big of a deal to lose a bastion, its still an objective, its still cover, its still yours

In our apocalypse games, when we don't use the 'troop scoring' variant, then dev squads see a lot of play.

But in games with troop scoring, more or fire heavy weapons on a unit with equal fragility, but no scoring status are redundant. Points need to be spent on troops, or on units that can do things that your troops can't do.

Devastators are a unit that can do things that Tactical Squads can't do: namely kick out 2x-4x the firepower. A Tactical squad has a discount on Heavy Weapons because the player has to face the decision of whether to move or shoot the Heavy Weapon, while the Devastators (not being Troops) don't need to move to reach objectives: they can cheerfully camp and ignore objectives. Likewise, stuff that either distracts your opponent from your Troops, or kills their stuff before it can kill your Troops is good.

My tac squads don't have to choose whether to move or shoot, they have combat squads...

I have to buy a base number of troops to win 66% of the games of standard 40k. Those troops come with free heavy weapons. Those heavy weapons, that are free, and scoring do exactly what devastator heavy weapons do.

If you want to invest in 4x heavy weapons for your devastators squad, just tell me what heavy weapons you are going to buy and I will politely refer you to a unit in the codex that is cheaper and does the job that your devs are going to do better.

The greatest benefit devestators have is the fact that they can out range most anti infantry weapons. The other army will typically have to devote long-range single shot weapons at them to take them out. Since the first casualties won't even reduce the devestators firepower, it will require a significant portion of the enemy's long range fire power to render them ineffective. There range and the fact that they are infantry usually makes them quite difficult to take out.

Shep:

That they do, but those combat squads are fragile. And one free Heavy Weapon isn't going to do what two non-free Heavy Weapons are going to do, no matter the savings. Tactical squads don't have the Signum, and they don't have the redundancy that ensures that Devastator squads kill their targets. That's the point of Devastator squads: you pay a premium for their power.

I've already pointed out that I use a Devastator squad with four Missile Launchers and another Devastator squad with two Plasma Cannons and two Multi-Meltas. Please, refer to the units you believe can do what they do. Then I can point out why they don't.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:The greatest benefit devestators have is the fact that they can out range most anti infantry weapons. The other army will typically have to devote long-range single shot weapons at them to take them out. Since the first casualties won't even reduce the devestators firepower, it will require a significant portion of the enemy's long range fire power to render them ineffective. There range and the fact that they are infantry usually makes them quite difficult to take out.

The only army lists who's anti infantry firepower they outrange are the codecies geared for close combat (tyranids and orks basically, and even orks can bring lootas and shokk attack guns which will smoke marines fine at range) and a few legacy 3rd edition lists; every other list has very effective anti infantry weapons which out range the best range (48 inches) Devestators can manage (not that every army made from those lists will bring those weapons to be sure).

Jack

Devastators have a nice synergy with Dreadnoughts. A Dreadnought can land in a Drop Pod and burn whatever long ranged firepower an enemy might have, or a Dreadnought can hang back and provided mobile cover for a combat squad of Devastators, and add its own firepower to boot. Plus they're inexpensive as units go, which helps to balance the premium that Devastators pay for their abilities. They also work nicely with a Techmarine: he fortifies their position and then runs interference on any enemy assault troops trying to attack them.

A unit that is better with 2 multimeltas--either a land speeder with double melta, or a sternguard with dual multimeltas. With pedro they are also scoring.

A unit that is better with 2 plasma cannons--see sternguard. (also, plasma are not nearly as competitive as people think, as space marines have nothing to maximize them--see chaos lash + oblits or IG 5 PC tanks for good plasma cannons)

A unit that is FAR better than 10 devs with 4 missile shots--10 termies with 4 missile shots, as mentioned. If you like the idea of paying for the dev squad as a useful multiroll unit, then you will LOVE the idea of paying for 10 termies for a truely DEVESTATING (lol) multiroll unit. The Termies have the same heavy weapons, can move and shoot, get 20 storm bolter shots, a 2+/5++ save, and have 9 powerfists.

In cover i would say that a 10 man dez squad is just as hard to kill as most vehicles.
Also, while hiding in cover they can throw out just as much, if not more firepower than most HS choices.
however, thier points reflect this pretty badly.

If your against someone who will be taking alot of anti-tank, then go for it and take dev's (whats a lascannon shot each turn to a unit in cover?)

DevianID:

Ah, but the Devastator squad is Heavy Support, which is important if you're using those Elite and Fast Attack slots for something else. Likewise, the integral cost of the Land Speeders and Sternguard must be considered, and their effectiveness. Can the Sternguard fire one of those Multi-Meltas at BS5? Can the Land Speeders? Both units are more expensive than a single five man Devastator squad with two Multi-Meltas.

Likewise, ten Terminators with Cyclones are going to be much more expensive than the Devastators with Missile Launchers, Elites, and much less useful as a multi-role unit given that they can't take a transport Rhino or Razorback, use a Signum, or be taken in addition to three other Terminator squads.

Also, tank shock is great for maximizing the effect of blasts.

I love Dev squads, I have always used them. Admittedly in 5th they aren't as good as they were, but still, 4 heavy bolters or 4 missile launchers is still very effective. I even like the 4 M.Melta load out, although they are certainly situational in their effectiveness.

A land raider is more useful, I have to say, but I enjoy the good old dev squad quite a bit and when you find yourself facing the horde army with your 4 heavy bolter squad, you just smile.

I think one reason that you don't see as many devastators squads on tables is that they simply compete for slots with a lot of other good choices.

I almost always use a devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons. They are a great flexible unit that will absolutly take down light armor and rape any infantry, including terminators.