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Is a LR (250) and 5 Assault Terminators (further 200) or 450 points total too much for a 1500 points SM army?

Thinking:
Speeder with Hvy Flamer / MM is 70
10 Marines with MM and Meltagun in Rhino is 210
Dreadnaught with TL LC and Missile Launcher is 145
Vindicator is 115

Thoughts?

As an assault platform the standard Land Raider is not nearly as well suited as a Crusader or a Redeemer, so in that sense, no, not justified.

Two Crusader/Redeemers in that amount of points is certainly viable, however, and I'd certainly consider them.

The standard Land Raider is okay, but its main armament just isn't enough of a threat to justify its inclusion in low to medium point level games in my experience.

agreed

I don't know about that. LRs are certainly useful and having 2xTL Lascannons and a TL Heavy Bolter always helps. Plus a squad in a Crusader is in danger of being too big. Do you really NEED 8 terms all gangbashing the same target? Plus a crusader is far less useful against most hardened targets compared to a Godhammer LR.

If I was gonna take an SM LR (I play DH and CSM so I can't ) it would probably be the Redeemer. In the kind of close quarters a LR transporting termies should be it can undoubtedly put out far more damage than the other 2 combined. Plus it will simply annihilate MEQs and can actually do damage after unloading it's cargo. Plus the Assault Cannon will do more damage to high AV vehicles than a Lascannon. It tops all other variants in the SM codex at everything except the range of the Godhammer.

So in summary, as a transport lose the Godhammer(mainly more of a Gunship) and take the Redeemer (instant win at close range).

(Also apologies for my wanton use of the word plus)

The Godhammer LR is a viable choice if you're sure that your opponent fields a pure mech army. The ability to pop two transports at long range can be very useful to stop meltavets / fire dragons in their tracks.

Apart from that I'm in favour of the other LR variants, too.

the redeemer is the worst variant out there... don't let anyone tell you otherwise. its not hard to immobilize a land raider at range, either through a glancing shot from a lascannon, or just a bad terrain roll... and if you do immobilize your redeemer, your stuck with a 250 point assault cannon / multimelta turret. admittedly, thats not bad... but still.

a normal land raider with multimelta upgrade packs 4 heavy weapons for 260 points... a similarly equipped dev squad weighs in at 270 points, and the land raider has 3 of those weapons twin linked.

one of my biggest issues in the marine codex is cramming in long range anti-tank. I find the ability to pop enemy transports is a HUGE thing. you need to bring down SOME of the transports... not all of them. that way the enemy assault reaches you in pieces, so you can handle the chunks one at a time. both the other variants are GREAT for assault roles, but lets be honest, marines should never be a dedicated assault army. our best assault units, terminators, are barely passable as close combat specialists(compared to some other races).

sometimes you just want to sit back and shoot as long as possible before you HAVE to get into the assault and mix it up. The ability to move either forward or backward 6" and fire 2 TLLC into 2 seperate enemy units is a godsend...

so lets look at the advantages / disadvantages of each raider in detail:

Redeemer pros:
1) flamestorm cannons are amazing vs non terminator infantry
2) assault cannon is decent anti-infantry
3) increased capacity for terminators

Redeemer cons:
1) primary weapon useless at ranges of over 8"
2) most conditions allow only 1 primary weapon to be fired at a time
3) having to charge the enemy means taking dangerous terrain tests... chance of immobilization.
4) only effective when in enemy melta gun range.

Crusader pros:
1) packs as much firepower as a standard tactical squad, PLUS assault cannon... possible 17 shots at close range
2) increased capacity

Crusader cons:
1) 24" maximum range of the tank
2) not that effective against MEQ/terminator units
3) space marines have enough bolters in the army... we don't need more tacked on our land raiders
4) having to charge the enemy means taking dangerous terrain tests... chance of immobilization.

Standard raider pros:
1) 48" ranged primary weapons
2) excellent at destroying enemy transports at long range
3) retains effectiveness against all targets at up to 36" even when immobilized

Standard raider cons:
1) reduced transport capacity
2) low number of max shots (6, though 5 are twin linked, and 3 of them are ap 2 or better)


now if you consider that the standard raider con #1, low transport capacity, isn't that big of a con because 6 terminators is normally sufficient to kill a target (if you require more you really shouldn't be in hand to hand with it in the first place)... that leaves the low number of shots as the only con. this is mitigated partially by the fact that its range is huge, and is effective against any target.

you need to consider that the land raider is a huge freaking fire magnet. Anything that can be shot at it, will be shot at it. It will be penetrated... it will be glanced. It has a good chance of being immobilized. your 240 point redeemer stands a good chance of being a flamestorm cannon turret, which doesn't strike me as a great use of 240 points...

Yeah I know if I wanted a Gunship as I said the Godhammer wins hands down. But this guy wanted a transport and you can't argue that the Redeemer has the same chance to die as the Godhammer and will transport more and do more damage close up than the Godhammer ever could. For what the OP wants the Redeemer is way better than the Godhammer, though given I would always take the Godhammer first too as a Gunship for my DH or Zerkers. Godhammer is universally better when not full of Termies (sorry if my last post didn't make that clear)

If you want Anti Armour

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Terminus_Ultra

data sheet

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180072_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Terminus_Ultra_Land_Raider.pdf



and your termies can walk...

i'm advocating that he use it as a reactionary transport more than an assault transport.

marines shouldn't really be rushing the enemy lines... unless they are crappy in hand to hand to begin with, and then the firepower given by the other variants is a little bit overkill. I mean, those extra bolter/redeemer shots don't matter that much against guard/tau, because terminators in their lines will already end them.

land raiders are best served by ensuring your terminators get the charge against the biggest enemy gribbilies as they get close to you. against enemies that don't have those big scary assault units (guard and tau mostly....), their role is to spearhead an armored rush into the enemy, so you can get your tactical marines into hand to hand. sure, the other variants provide better support once they get in there, but another plus to the godhammer is that they can move 12" and still fire lascannons, and try to pop vehicles for the terminators to charge.

Horst wrote:
Redeemer pros:
3) increased capacity for terminators

Madgod wrote:Yeah I know if I wanted a Gunship as I said the Godhammer wins hands down. But this guy wanted a transport and you can't argue that the Redeemer has the same chance to die as the Godhammer and will transport more and do more

The Redeemer has the same transport as the Godhammer, 12 models. Only the Crusader has a larger transport capacity of 16.

Otherwise I totally agree with Horst's tactical assessment of the use of the Land Raider.

Jack

@Tauzon: I don't think you can use those outside Apoc. Plus they're very expensive

@Jackmojo: Sorry I don't play SM so didn't know. Thought they had more. Still better close up than Godhammers

Great posts all.

Flavour im taking away from all this is yes, worth the points and GH is the right fitout to blend charging across the table BA style and sitting back popping transports.

My own feeling is having a unit that will win close combat is critical so I can get it in the way of H2H enemies but that does not always mean I have to move with all speed towards those enemies, only that I intercept them before they reach my firm bases / gunlines.

Thanks your the views and opinions.

Landraider are awsome in my opinion you just have to pick the right one

Crusaders are great because it only has one main gun(rest are defensive) allowing it to move 12 inches and fire all of its guns. i also take the storm bolter because its cheap and useful (that little storm bolter has taken out deamon princes and terminators quite a few times ) the multi melta is a must for popping tanks. just cruise up to your opponents battle line at full speed each turn, unload your bolters and assault cannon at the infantry while the melta pops tanks thanks to PotMS not to mention youl be within melta range

Redemers are close to the Crusader in function but diffrent in application. can only move 6 inches and fire all weapons. Lower transport cap. STR6 AP3 is great on the flamestorm cannons. This Landraider is an anti-marine(or battlesuit)tank. it is kinda wasted on horde armies , true it will kill a lot of orks and nids with its flamers but you will probibly only get one good round of shooting with them before close combat and it only takes one rending hit from a genestealer(and there will probibly be more) to take it down.

Godhammer landraiders are mobile gun platforms. use the lascannons to pick off enemy tanks from a safe distance. the heavy bolter can fire at enemy infantry using PotMS. also it dosn't matter if you get immobilized in your deployment zone because both of its guns have a long range .

@Grey Templar:

A little correction:
LRC's can move SIX inches and fire a mainweapon and defensive, then PoTMS another weapon, not twelve inches as they are not fast vehicles. But can PoTMS one weapon though.

Templates are never wasted on hordes.

Godhammer: generally most people just get 2 Annihlator Preds, unless you are hurting for Hvy support choices.

My 7 Cents.

Thing about the Reedemer/Crusader, is if you draw a KP mission, then your screwed. Your expensive tank has no choice but to try and get within multi-melta range, where it's vulnerable to the same weapon.

Besides, most of the time when you move a land raider you move it at cruse speed so you can't fire it's guns anyways...unless you PoTMS...or can you do that at cruising?

Edit: I think we missed the OP's point, his question was (paraprhase) "At 1500 points, is the land raider worth taking up 1/3 of my army?"

It could be, I mean if you have the model why not use it? Does the Land Raider do something that the rest of your army can already do? In that case, no, take some other tank.

At 1500pts, I field 3 Land Raiders in my pure GK army (4 LR’s if I add in an Inquisitor and don't mind if someone slashes my tires). That averages to just over 50% of my 1500pts list in Land Raiders.

When I play Marines, I do the same thing except that I will take 1-2 Redeemers and either a 2 Godhammers or 1 Crusader depending on which infantry units I decide to field.

BTW: the GK Crusader can move 12" and fire its Hurricanes due to a special rule in their codex. Everyone else with LR Crusaders unfortunately lost that rule after 3rd edition, putting their Hurricanes in the defensive weapon category and restricting them to 6" moves.

SJ

The problem with Landraiders in SM armies is that you (usually) want to buy some assault unit to put inside it, this makes the price of the Landraider go up alot.

With Chaos and GK your troops are your assault unit

Sanctjud wrote:@Grey Templar:

A little correction:
LRC's can move SIX inches and fire a mainweapon and defensive, then PoTMS another weapon, not twelve inches as they are not fast vehicles. But can PoTMS one weapon though.

Templates are never wasted on hordes.

Godhammer: generally most people just get 2 Annihlator Preds, unless you are hurting for Hvy support choices.

My 7 Cents.

Sorry, i was thinking of my grey knights LRC which can always fire its Hurricane Bolters no matter how far it moves :0

Ok, clarification, for Grey Knights, not only is the land raider justified, but also necessary IIRC

Back on topic.

In my expierence many opponents (in smaller games especially, 1000-1500) simply panic when they see a landraider. They think because its 250 pts that you will only take them in larger games (1500-2000+). but you can take 2 and simply pretend its a 1000 pt game. He may not even have any thing that can hurt it, or will be seriously lacking in anti tank

Remember Landraider will draw lots of fire But this can be a good thing. use the Landraider to pull your opponents assault troops and anti tank away from your other tanks and close combat troops. move your troops onto the objectives and shoot those that went after the LR. then you will have a punched up Landraider and, Wait i have the Objective and its the last turn. I win? O'yeah.

Translation: Use landraider as distraction and go for the objective. "His will be done"

Just got done with a 1500 tourny and you know what? I play Land raiders.

When with along the lines of this, 2 Redeemers with Extra armour + Melta melta. 2 Land raider. One redeemer was a dedicated transport for my 5 assualt terms. Had a libby with gate and null shield. 2 units of scouts for troops.

I'll admit, it was a "fun" army, not as competitive as I normally play... but it never lost a game. The scout ride in the regular raider and act as range anti-armour/MC. Splitting fire helps when dealing with multiple dreads/rhino/skimmers. The redeemers, rarely move slower than 12". Tank shock at full steam and bingo, instant template formation.

Having 4 AV14 + one rock hard counter assualt unit catchs most people off guard. Yes, I even played a very competitive dark Eldar Dark raider/ lance spam army and we fought each other to a draw.

Raiders rocks, always will. Just make sure you know how you are going to use them. That are too expensive in points not to contribute to the overall battle plan.

As long as it's a crusader or a redeemer, then yes of course, I use Assault Terminators and an LRC in my standard 1250 point games.

Taking a pair of LRs full of Terms in a lower points game is a bit rocks-paper-scissors. In objective based games, you're probably going to lose. In KP missions, you're probably going to win. So, it's one of those choices that's moderately effective no matter what you do.

You could always put a minimum tactical squad, or even a minimal scout squad in a Godhammer, sit it on your base, and make it a AV14 scoring weapons platform.

That is prehaps the most effective way of holding an objective. Kit the scout squad with blades and pistols, put them in the LR, park it on the objective and DARE your opponent to take them off it.

Horst wrote:Crusader pros:
1) packs as much firepower as a standard tactical squad, PLUS assault cannon... possible 17 shots at close range
2) increased capacity

Crusader cons:
1) 24" maximum range of the tank
2) not that effective against MEQ/terminator units
3) space marines have enough bolters in the army... we don't need more tacked on our land raiders
4) having to charge the enemy means taking dangerous terrain tests... chance of immobilization.

I find the Crusader to be the best LR variant hands down, and I have a different assessment of the vehicle.

There are some important things to consider when comparing LRs.
* The most common use of the LR is to act as a delivery mechanism for assault troops. For 250+ points there are better options for long range sniping.
* When moving, the LR is limited to firing 2 weapons at combat speed, and 1 weapon at cruising speed.
* When delivering assault units, most land raiders will be moving at cruising speed -- limiting firing to 1 weapon + defensive weapons
* The effective range of a LR is 6"-12" more than listed. The tank can move and shoot.
* ACs are better than LCs on penetrating armor -- all kind of armor.
* Bolters are defensive weapons.
* Assault terminators do not have frag gernades. When assaulting targets in cover, LC and PS go at the same speed as TH and PFs

Taking those into consideration, lets look at the Crusader again.
* Its effective range is 30"-36". Placing the Crusader as close to the middle of the board reduces the limitation of a 24" range considerably -- which also assists its role as an assault delivery mechanism.
* A standard LR moving at cruising speed will fire 1 TL LC. The Crusader will be firing an TL AC.
* A standard LR moving at combat speed can fire 2 TL LC. The Crusader can fire 1 TL AC, 1 MM, and 2 hurricane bolters. The Crusader still has the additional firepower vs. MEQ and terminators over a standard LR.
* The crusader has assault frag launchers, allowing terminator sergeants to not strike last vs. opponents in cover.

The Crusader is not a perfect tank, as it is possible to be immobilized and having all the opponents move more than 24" away from it.
Given the advantages that it has, it stands head and shoulders above the other LCs.

At cruising speed the Crusader cannot shoot the Hurricane bolters (unless it's the GKLR with the ghetto Assault Cannon).

However, at 6" or less the Crusader does put out more firepower.

Once again, I think anyone will agreethat for getting Termies stuck in ASAP, you're better off with a LRC or even a LRR. However, if you're looking for a tough, mobile, long-range gun platform, the standard LR is your best bet.

labmouse42, I agree with your assessments of the crusader... I even own one myself (along with 3 regular ones)

it has its roles... it is great at delivering the assault terminators. in an assaulty army, sure its great. My playstyle lends me to a more shooty marine list, with hand to hand elements to counter charge.

but I think we can both agree that the redeemer is the worst of the 3 variants :/

unless you are facing MEQs and can get into range (not very often)

Thanks all, good ideas and feedback

Loved the post Chubs - would freak anyone seeing all those raiders i think!