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I have seen several posts about how people hate how GW dosen't tell us ahead of schedule what they are doing. Like after wolfs, do we know for sure whats coming? Nids?

In my possibly twisted logic it makes sense. If you knew wolfs were coming out a year ago, it's likely that their sales would go down. So it makes sense from a business standpoint not to tell anybody. Also if something goes bad/gets put behind schedule the RABID FANS will spam you with complaints forever.

Someone a while ago said car companies release pix of their cars before they come and and how it generates interest. But its not the same. Because if I buy a car and then it completly loses the ability to start when a new one comes out. I'm not going to buy the current model if the new model is around the corner.

Also The mystery box was stupid, stupid, stupid. Im talking about regular codexes/codici/whaterever the plural is.

What do you think Dakka?

On the plus side super-secrecy makes things all exciting, having to navigate the depths of the internet searching for someone who actually has the codex early.
On the other hand it sucks in every way not knowing what's coming. The space hulk thing was pretty ridiculous. Some people just can't scrape together $100 in a day's notice.

What it is is unnecessary. Why keep us in the dark? Why not get people excited by letting them know what models you plan on making.

We've gone from having every unit in a Codex come out in model form within a month or two of a Codex release to mystical 'waves' that are given no warning and no indication of content.

Why wouldn't they want to get people hyped up about new products by showing off said products?

I would think because people will stop buying the current ones.

Shaman wrote:I would think because people will stop buying the current ones.

Bingo.

By keeping whats "next" in secret , they have a higher chance of us purchasing whats currently available instead of
saving up for the next thing that we might prefer.

For example , my Ork army is supposedly done . But i get new units here and there ,
if i know Nids are next for sure , there is a chance that i wont touch Orks at all ( for example , i dont care much about nids )

Ultimately, GW's problem is that it has yet to wake up to the fact that the vast majority of its customers are adults.

Yes, lots of kids play. Yes, lots of money is made by GW as the parents/etc of said kids buy them 'Warhammer-men'. But speaking from experience, most money I took when I worked there was from adult gamers. Kids come to look - grown-ups bring cash.

The kind of secrecy GW employs might work with kids - except they don't care. Most kids have not yet invested enough in the hobby to get a real buzz out of seeing what's coming up.

So that leaves us with adults. People who would be interested in dropping a bundle of cash on a new army with a bit of forewarning, people who would generate excitement in the clubs, stores and gaming halls - but we get treated like kids trying to sneak a look under the wrapping paper before christmas.

Stop it with the smugness GW and treat your customers with the respect they deserve for keeping you employed...


[/rant]

It's not secrecy, they just don't know what the fuckety feth-feth they're doing.

warpcrafter wrote:It's not secrecy, they just don't know what the fuckety feth-feth they're doing.

hahaha

@Chimera calvin

But the adults buy it anyway if they still play..

For example I have been considering Dark Eldar.. If I knew it was coming out soon I wouldnt buy nothing.. but since I don't know I still might get some stuff. See what I mean.

In my possibly twisted logic it makes sense. If you knew wolfs were coming out a year ago, it's likely that their sales would go down. So it makes sense from a business standpoint not to tell anybody. Also if something goes bad/gets put behind schedule the RABID FANS will spam you with complaints forever.

Sales will go down because people will save their money for the new plastics, yeah. But it's not like the old kits have really been flying off the shelves or anything, is it? I can't imagine they make that much money off of them to make it worth keeping people deliberately in the dark.

Someone a while ago said car companies release pix of their cars before they come and and how it generates interest.

That was probably me that said that.

But its not the same. Because if I buy a car and then it completly loses the ability to start when a new one comes out. I'm not going to buy the current model if the new model is around the corner.

...um...I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here...

First of all, cars don't just lose the ability to start when next year's model hits the road. Second, if they did, then I imagine the auto industry would have died decades ago, no one would bother investing $20-30k into a vehicle if it was only going to last one year. No one would be buying cars at all.

Anyway, it's not even that extreme, in most cases you can still use the old models regardless. I just think it's an underhanded way to try and squeeze every possible penny out of people. They seriously expect us to buy up all their old stock at full price, and then go out and buy all the new models to replace those old ones just a few months later. If they at least offered some kind of discount on the old stuff (like car dealers often do to encourage people to buy up old models and free up space on the lot for new ones) then it wouldn't be so bad.

For example I have been considering Dark Eldar.. If I knew it was coming out soon I wouldnt buy nothing.. but since I don't know I still might get some stuff. See what I mean.

Dark Eldar is a really bad example, most people aren't buying anything anyway because the models look like crap.

It's another demonstration of a company out of touch with the internet.

When they finally leap up and cry 'TA-DA!!!!1!', we've already talked the particular subject to death and looked at umpteen leaked pictures.

If they got with the program and instead kept us up to date with projects, ideas, green sculpts and idea sketches, IMO they'd be better served and could get feedback on things before they'd even produced them.

It's like they actually believe something appears in White Dwarf and everyone drops their coco and squeeee!!!s in delight.

Maybe they're not out-of-touch with the internet, but in-touch with their lawyers.

I'm just speculating here, but there might be some risk of a lawsuit if they say they're going to do something by a certain date, and then fail to meet that obligation, for whatever reason.

I mention this because the company I work for has a strict rule regarding saying what features may be in which release, what bugfixes might be available at what date, and so on. If we say, "feature X will be in our December release", but then something happens preventing us from making that release (the guy who was to develop feature X gets sick, or an important issue sidetracks him for a month, or maybe feature X is harder to do that initially estimated), we can be held liable, especially if our customers then based their schedules on our next update.

This could be why they don't want to make any statements until it is readily apparent that they'll make a specific date. Look at what happens when they try to rush things (thinking specifically of the price changes on the Realm of Battle board).

I would hazard a guess that the reson they are getting cagey about showing new things well in advance of the release is because it is shown to have a negative impact on sales.
When a model or kit is released in secrecy people rush out to get hold of the shiney new model, when images have been knocking around for a while many impulse buyers will have lost patience and decided to keep tier money.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It's another demonstration of a company out of touch with the internet.

When they finally leap up and cry 'TA-DA!!!!1!', we've already talked the particular subject to death and looked at umpteen leaked pictures.

..........

Thus, we have seen the future of GW marketing and it is....Meh!

They keep their cards close to their chest and always have done, the only remarkable thing about Spulk was the lack of pre-production/release leaks. Personally I didn't have a problem with the mystery box and it certainly peaked my interest enough to join the debate on a forum (not something I have felt the need to do before). I think Lunahound put her finger on the most pertinent point earlier and that is that too much advance product knowledge will impinge sales now. Additionally noones boss likes missing deadlines in the public arena, I think that GW manage their release process to cover their respective arses the same as anyone else would (except FFG apparently, WHERES MY FETHIN' ROGUE TRADER COLLECTORS EDITION FOOLZ!). Ahem.


Anyway the point I was trying to make was that I think this poll should have had a Spase Corridors option.

They are out of touch. Just about every other gaming company out there tells us about the things they have in the works. We knew about StarCraft 2 last year, and get regular updates on its progress --- I know all this and do not even own a gaming rig, nor do I play games!! By keeping the customers, and potential customers, informed to what awesome things are coming up, people buy them. I guess this was probably the original purpose of White Dwarf (though, having never read one in my life, I would have no idea). Things have moved online these days, so they should make use of their website. Did I say gaming company? Sorry, I meant miniature company! Even model companies use the Internet these days to keep their customers informed through design blogs. Many of them share every second concept sketch, and show how the prototype models are coming along, well before things go into production. It generates interest, and interest generates sales.

I personally believe their current attitude is counter-productive. Since they went into super-secrecy mode, my interest in Games Workshop products has notably dropped and I have been spending gradually less --- I seem to be accidentally letting money collect in my bank account!! Things I would have considered buying 18 months ago no longer even garner consideration. It is not like I want them to list release dates for every product for the next 3 years or anything, just throw us a bone. ``Hey, we are well under way with Codex: Tyranids at the moment, and here is a green of one of the AWESOME NEW PLASTICS you will DEFINITELY WANT TO BUY! We expect these babies are likely to hit shelves first quarter next year, so keep an eye open.''

Redbeard wrote:I'm just speculating here, but there might be some risk of a lawsuit if they say they're going to do something by a certain date, and then fail to meet that obligation, for whatever reason.

Except that you don't have to give dates. Telling people what is coming up isn't the same as telling someone when said item is coming up.

Catalyst Games is a good example. They previewed a product called the BattleTech TechManual quite a bit before its release. They told everyone what it was, what would be in it, and when it would be out. Many delays later they apologised for giving dates that they couldn't keep, and that they would not be doing so in the future. They still release previews of upcoming products - tables of contents for books, small downloadable PDF's with a few pages in them, item lists for any boxed sets that are coming up, their goals with the products - months in advance. Never any dates - sometimes a quarter - but they still reveal information. We all got excited over the last book because they showed it off a few months before it came out, gave us a full announcement of what it was, previewed the full contents page and the first 10 or so pages of the book. We had no idea exactly when it was coming out, but that didn't matter, we didn't have a company going "We know something you don't know! HAHAH!". We've had previews of new 'Mech miniatures 6-12 months in advance, and a schedual of upcoming releases in the order they'd like to release them in, just no dates.

So it's not hard to tell people what you're going to be doing without telling them when you're going to be doing it. Right now GW does neither, and it's fething annoying and completely pointless.

GW now works to shorter release schedules than previously. This is principally because they can now put designs into production more quickly as a result of advances they've made in their plastic moulding technology (there was an article in WD explaining that a lot of designs are already done as CADs). As a result of the lead-in time being shorter, there is less scope for the kind of leaks we used to get. Whereas before we would see 3-ups months ahead of the actual model, 3-ups are increasingly rare, and are obviously kept under wraps. I suspect what they now do is monitor sales of a particular wave, and if it does well they put out another one for the same army. That way they can change release schedules if they need to. That would also explain why they don't want too many leaks (because once they've shown a model is being produced they'll incur more than the usual amount of wrath if they withdraw it - Starcraft 2 has been mentioned as an example of the benefits of keeping people informed, but Blizzard are copping flak for the increasingly lengthy delay in releasing it). We have had some leaks, however, as we saw CAD's of some kits a fair way ahead of their release. But at the beginning of this year there was no reliable information on anything beyond the middle of the year, and indications that nothing had been fixed that far ahead.

The Orks are a good example, as they had a fairly comprehensive overhaul in 2008. The metal models are less of an investment, so I'm ignoring them. The first wave of new plastic kits was relatively conservative (re-tooled Boyz, Lootas/Burnas and the Trukk kits - all fairly essential units). By all accounts the new Ork stuff sold well (no doubt boosted by the inclusion of the plastic Warboss, Nobz and Dethkoptas in the AoBR set), so a second wave was released. These were 'riskier' releases - most Ork players had long since given up expecting to see plastic Grots. Then we got the Stompa as a 'one off'; I'm guessing the bean counters took some convincing to approve that one. It's not entirely true that there is no build up for new models. There were promises of 2008 being a 'green year' and a few leaked images (including photos of the Battlewagon's tracks on a Trukk conversion in WD, and of course the prototype Stompas in Apocalypse). This approach certainly succeeding in building up a lot of anticipation amongst Ork players.

Space Hulk, of course, sold out with virtually no advance notice apart from the dumb 'mystery box' thing, which was either a one-off or proves that it's better to keep everyone guessing.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It's another demonstration of a company out of touch with the internet.

When they finally leap up and cry 'TA-DA!!!!1!', we've already talked the particular subject to death and looked at umpteen leaked pictures.

Maybe so, but that seems to kill your next point:

If they got with the program and instead kept us up to date with projects, ideas, green sculpts and idea sketches, IMO they'd be better served and could get feedback on things before they'd even produced them.

Given the levels of cynicism (real and assumed) on discussion boards, the fact that internet discussions are often dominated by people who post more than they build or paint, and the disputes that arise over virtually anything, I think trying to keep 'us' involved would be a losing proposition. I think those who spend a lot of time on sites like this tend to overstate their importance. Internet sites can be great resources for news, ideas for modelling and tactical advice, but they're not necessarily the best guide to which models will and won't sell, and trying to satisfy the demands of a bunch of anonymous vocal minority would probably send the model designers around the twist.

It's also quite possible that they did monitor feedback on leaked images, and decided it was counter-productive - possibly for the reason mentioned i.e. that as soon as people saw something new they held off buying older models, or because of MGS's point about new stuff being talked to death and losing its appeal.

Incidentally, their codexes are an entirely different point; GW could benefit a lot from experienced gamers feeding in ideas via the internet, since GW appear determined not to playtest their army lists sufficiently.

The mystery box campaign likely had nothing to do with it. Space Hulk sold out because of its limited nature, the awesome exclusive minis that come with it, and the fact that over 20 years after it was originally released it's still held in high regard by a lot of people. Certainly not because it was a complete surprise, it was hinted at several times throughout the year.

Sidstyler wrote:The mystery box campaign likely had nothing to do with it. Space Hulk sold out because of its limited nature, the awesome exclusive minis that come with it, and the fact that over 20 years after it was originally released it's still held in high regard by a lot of people. Certainly not because it was a complete surprise, it was hinted at several times throughout the year.

Okay, but they were hints at the most (I agree the mystery box thing probably made no difference). Despite the lack of any leaked photos or anything substantive, it sold out. I don't know how much that tells us about other releases, but it does suggest that if a model is good it will sell itself - and (possibly) that too much information in advance actually harms sales. It seems to have been an issue for them, because there were rumours of Studio people being fired for leaking information. Anyway, that's all just conjecture.

They do hide pictures of some of the stuff. IG codex has that wrecked rhino terrain that recently came out (has it been released yet or not, I'm not keeping track of it ) in it. 5th ed rule book has the bastions in it. It's still annoying though. Especially if you consider starting one of the older armies because it could become redundant by releasing better models a few months after buying it. But, unless it's Space Marines it doesn't seem to happen much

Then again you could wait a little bit for the new models to come out, but then you could be waiting long enough for the risk of the new better models coming out *cough*DarkEldar*cough*
Although the Space Wolves codex is older than the Dark Eldar one.

I think a better analogy is the video game industry, rather than the car industry.

Right now, I'm rabid to play ID softwares' next title, "Rage."
I first heard about it in a trade magazine six months ago, when they announced their plans to release a FPS post-apocalypse game. All they said was it was more of a one player game, and that it would have some light RPG elements, something new for the company.
Four months ago I got to see screen shots, and more details on the world and the game mechanics.
Last month I read a full walk-through description of the first half-hour of the game, saw more screen shots, and got a more clear picture of what the game is trying to accomplish.

Like Blizzard, ID never puts out a game till its done. all their release dates are "soft," and subject to change, as they feel rushing any part of the development will cause more harm then good.

Having to wait, and yet getting tons of details from the company is not making my want for the game wane. Its also not stopping me from purchasing the new Castle Wolfenstein from them right now either.

n0t_u wrote:Although the Space Wolves codex is older than the Dark Eldar one.

Bzzt. Not quite. Dark Eldar were the second codex after Space Marines in 3rd edition, since they were in the starter box. Space Wolves came out after. And I don't count that 'update' they released for them as a new 'codex'.

I think that GW keeps its longer-term plans deeply hidden so that they can react to market conditions. I firmly believe that the latest crush of Space Marine stuff is specifically geared to help ward off the recession by increasing sales in their most popular line. Add in the apparent 'power' of the Wolf dex, and you have sure sales from space wolf players, and players who can build smaller forces that are competitive.

If GW had laid out that they were going to do Orks, then Demons, then Guard, then LaTD, then Inquisition, the Marine fanatics would have screamed bloody murder. Then if they decided to add Wolves and Templars in right after Guard, everyone else would scream. Lose/lose.

I started a Dark Eldar army a year or two ago, still under the ancient 3rd ed codex. I bought warriors, wyches, raiders, and ravagers. The only unit I bought that pretty much blows is Grotesques. I haven't bought Incubi, because I'm waiting for a better model. Same with Mandrakes, and Warp Beasts, and while I have 1 Talos, I'm hoping for something along the lines of the recent chaos FW models.

So, even without rumors of models or a new codex, I'm still not buying current stuff, because I don't like the models.

Actually, I agree with one of the above posters, that with all the secrecy, my interest in GW (40k at least) is waning, and I've been blowing large chunks of money since 2nd edition, and now have more disposeable income. There is always historicals for me

I can't stand it. Ifthey at least would give some more official infos on what they're working on over the next year. How many years did we hear about a new Ork Codex coming out?
Also, if I knew that Orks would get shiney new models I could concentrate more on buying stuff for other armies.

All I can say is if they release a new version of the Codex I just bought, I will be requesting a refund or at least some credit from GW. I probably won't get it but, honestly the only way to let a company know you are not happy with them is to tell them.

I have no idea whether or not sending them a letter will accomplish anything, but I can tell you that in these financial times, every customer is needed. It's one thing to keep cards close to your chest, but selling products that you know will be obsolete in a few months really is just sneaky.

It's stuff like that that gets people pissed off enough to spend the time to scan and upload books etc for torrents. Not that I condone that sort of thing, I have and always will be a "in my hands" type of guy - whether its a book, music or something I just dig.

Mind you the cost of some of their products, is why I purchase "alternatives", even more so now that I see how much inflated their prices can be, 10 bucks for a small tub of colored sawdust !! really ???

Tailgunner wrote:
Space Hulk, of course, sold out with virtually no advance notice apart from the dumb 'mystery box' thing, which was either a one-off or proves that it's better to keep everyone guessing.

Or option 3) Fans have been asking for space ulk for the last dacade and were eager to snatch it up despite the stupid 'mystery box' thing.

I'd hazard the fans would do the same for necromunda and hero quest which they also have been asking for.

I have no idea whether or not sending them a letter will accomplish anything, but I can tell you that in these financial times, every customer is needed.

Hopefully, they feel that way all the time, especially in a hobby where if customers are happy they may buy your products for decades.

It's one thing to keep cards close to your chest, but selling products that you know will be obsolete in a few months really is just sneaky.

I've always felt that way. I've been buying GW products for two decades. Most of the time I'm very happy with them. There have been times I was not. One of my least favorite tactics has been the one you mention here, keeping a book on the shelf for sale right up until the newer version is released. Luckily, it's never happened to me, but if I purchased an expensive army book or rule book just days or just a few weeks before it became obsolete, I'd be quite annoyed. I'm sure it doesn't help a kid stay in the hobby if their parents get caught in that trap. Being deep into the hobby I always know when a book is about to go obsolete, but there are more casual customers out there and maybe some new customers who are not "plugged in" to GW news yet who could fall into that trap. GW has gotten better about not catching people like that but in the early days it could be a real problem.

Mind you the cost of some of their products, is why I purchase "alternatives", even more so now that I see how much inflated their prices can be, 10 bucks for a small tub of colored sawdust !! really ???

Most if not all of the scenery products like flock, static grass, snow, water effects are repackaged Woodland Scenics, available from any decent model railroad shop or the Woodland Scenics website. GW repackages them and marks them up. They are a great convenience for people who don't know where else to buy such things or who have no other hobby shops near them, but if you can buy your Woodland Scenics in the original packaging then it is of course much cheaper to do so.

As for the whole secrecy issue, I can understand why they want to maintain that, but in 2007 when the entire release schedule for the year was leaked out months ahead that was one of GW's best sales years ever. My point is that losing their secrecy on new releases may sometimes hurt sales, but it's not a simple or clear cut issue and sometimes early leaks generate a lot of interest as it did with Apocalypse and the Baneblade.

If I knew what was coming out I would end up spending more money on GW items, because I could and would save up for the things that pique my interest.

Since I have rumors that Tyranids (my only army) may be soon all it does is stop me from adding to my collection. Confirmation, either positive or negative, would certainly earn GW more cash from me.

Is it secrecy or is it being rather unorganized?

It's secrecy. New release schedules are mapped out more than a year ahead of time, with tweaks made as they go as they deem necessary. What is revealed and how far ahead is also carefully planned. Most employees as well as customers are kept in the dark about what is coming unitl they are within a 90-day window. Sometimes the window is even smaller these days.

I was mulling this over during my early math class, and wanted to touch back upon one point. In my example of comparing GW releases to a video game release, it occurred to me I heard about the game rage from a trade publication. GW has The white dwarf, but they only really let you know a month in advance when something new is coming, if even that.

Game distributors rely on a mix of industry buzz, adverts in magazines, the occasional TV spot, and a few other types of advertising to get the word out on their upcoming releases. Even sub-par games are accompanied by a swell of advertising, slick marketing campaigns, and good box art. If you cant make a game that's note-worthy, you need to use different routes of advertising to market your product.
Even with the huge juggernauts of the video game world, a huge amount of cash is spent on direct and indirect marketing. We've all seen the TV spots for WoW, and they still push for more players even after passing the eleven million mark. (not sure on that figure, but too lazy to look it up.)

GW as a company has eschewed all normal means of advertising, and even tout that as one of the tenets of their company. All advertising is in house. they have their own trade magazine, their own conventions, and their own stores to get the word out. They do not have any official booths at any major or minor conventions, they don't advertise in any other magazine than White Dwarf, They don't use any radio or TV adds, and to my knowledge just don't have much of an advertising budget in general. The only exception to this is lending out the use of their IP to video game makers. To paraphrase the company line, they do fine with word of mouth, its a niche hobby, and their rate of growth just doesn't need anything else.

I'm not really knowledgeable about marketing, so I don't have any thoughts on this being good or bad. What I do know is that if GW survives on word of mouth, why would they do anything to stop it? Why wouldn't they embrace it?

I understand that the leaks they had a while back were pretty damaging, and I do not feel that entire scans of finished codices should be available months in advance if that/s not how they want to run their company. (I personally don't feel its as bad as they might think, who doesn't love beta-testing or playing a demo months before a game is released? I suppose it could be argued that someone may play a beta test and then decide that game isn't for them, but I digress.)

That being said, I DO NOT want to feel like a criminal for asking about upcoming releases at GamesDay. I shouldn't be treated like a leper because I want to know if Tyranids are next, or Dark Eldar, or the DeathWatch.

I understand when a company says "We are not sure when product X is coming out, we'll let you know when its done. tentative time for release is October." Blizzard does it, and they get accolades for it. I already mentioned that ID software does it. Hell, with the new Batman: Arkham Asylum game, they pulled it at the last minute to fix a few bugs. (not sure who made it.)

I do not feel it would hurt GW sales if in January, they released a rough guide for what was coming out that year, and amended the list every quarter. What I do feel hurts their sales is not telling anyone anything more than a month out, and then expecting the "Word of mouth gods" to reign blessings down upon them.

I've been a big fan of GW for quite a few years, but the last few price increases coupled with their new-found disdain for their audience has soured me a bit.

On the subject of advertising, GW does advertise both directly and indirectly through cross-marketing with licensed products. For example, amusingly, many people walk into GW stores these days and ask if the products there are based on Warhammer Online.

Cross-marketing with their licenses through FFG and video game companies definitely brings new customers to the tabletop hobby. Reviews of video game licenses get GW miniatures products mentioned on video game review TV shows and in video game magazines.

GW has occasionally advertised on TV as well. There were at least a couple brief TV spots over the past few years run in local areas to promote new store openings. These were run very briefly late at night when rates are fairly low. I've also seen ads for GW products in video game magazines tied in with licensed video game releases.

Of course, fan sites like dakkadakka here, BoLS and others provide tons of free advertising, so GW doesn't need to spend a lot of money advertising elsewhere.

Independent retailers who advertise that they sell GW products also provide GW with advertising.

So saying that GW doesn't advertise by normal means isn't exactly true. They just find the most economical ways of doing so without spending millions of dollars on expensive prime-time TV spots or giant billboards.