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Building my 2nd army and pretty new to CSM:
How does this look?

X2 Daemon Prince, wings, mark of khorne

Berzerkers x7 + champ w/pwrfist
rhino
Berzerkers x7 + champ w/pwrfist
rhino
Berzerkers x7 + champ w/pwrfist
rhino

CSM x10 + Las/plas

Obliterators x2
Obliterators x2
Defiler + 2 DCCW

Termicide: x3 termies with combi meltas

1749 pts


How's that look? I'm considering dropping the defiler for 2 more oblits, but I like my defiler model so trying to field it.
I hear they suck tho, but maybe I have enough target saturation for him to live for a turn or two.
Criticism?

I suggest one power weapon on the zerkers, so you have 2 squads that are tasked with frontal charge, and a third squad for counter attack duties.
Princes are ok.

CSM with las/plas doesn't fit, nor is it too chaosy.

Oblits and defiler looks ok...generally with Hvy support vehicles, pairs are where it's at.

Temicides are meh in the list.

I think more troops are in order though.
24 MEQ seems a bit........underaverage or just lowish for 1750.

My 7 Cents.

Thanks for the input.

Although I have 34 MEQ in this list.
CSM = chaos space marine

Agreed with your thoughts on las/plas though, however when 2 out of 3 games are objective based, who will be objective campers?
Certainly not berzerkers? What do you use to score on your rear objectives then?

Hellhammer trust me three squads of eight man berzerkers is enough and is standard for all non LR khorne Lists.

Drop the CSM and add more termicide with combi-meltas (Khorne suffers big time from lack of meltaguns)
or make two five man squads with a meltagun in rhinos to capture objectives.

With Defilers it all or nothing. Take 3 or take all Obliterators.

Your list needs some more big threats so your rhinos dont get popped turn 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellhammer trust me three squads of eight man berzerkers is enough and is standard for all non LR khorne Lists.

Drop the CSM and add more termicide with combi-meltas (Khorne suffers big time from lack of meltaguns)
or make two five man squads with a meltagun in rhinos to capture objectives.

With Defilers it all or nothing. Take 3 or take all Obliterators.

Your list needs some more big threats so your rhinos dont get popped turn 1.

hellhammer6 wrote:Building my 2nd army and pretty new to CSM:
How does this look?

X2 Daemon Prince, wings, mark of khorne

Berzerkers x7 + champ w/pwrfist
rhino
Berzerkers x7 + champ w/pwrfist
rhino
Berzerkers x7 + champ w/pwrfist
rhino

CSM x10 + Las/plas

Obliterators x2
Obliterators x2
Defiler + 2 DCCW

Termicide: x3 termies with combi meltas

1749 pts


How's that look? I'm considering dropping the defiler for 2 more oblits, but I like my defiler model so trying to field it.
I hear they suck tho, but maybe I have enough target saturation for him to live for a turn or two.
Criticism?

I know your going for a themed army and obivously want mark of khorne, but with the daemon prince I think your cutting your nose off to spite your face as warptime is sooooo good and will rock your prince in combat even more. Does the prince really need the extra attack? I don't think so.

I would drop some of the fists maybe, I take melta bombs which work good against vehicles, but not walkers. I would try and add havoc launchers onto the rhinos for extra fire support.

No rhino on the CSM to get the plasma gun into range?

I would take a unit of three oblits and add another defiler, or take two vindicators as you give more target saturation, or the defiler will have a big bullseye on it. Defilers don't suck, they are ok, but you need two for target saturation really.

Three termies with combi meltas are ok, cheap unit, but I don't think would last long. I'd be inclined to drop the csm squad and get more chaos terminators.

Warptime or Lash are essential on DP's.

The Las/Plas squad needs to go. If you're worried about troops, turn them into another squad of 8 zerkers in a rhino with fist. Your Oblits and termies should give you enough AT fire.

Or, drop the Las/Plas squad for 2x8 Lesser Demons. Don't forget Icon's. A Greater Demon popping out of a rhino is also really good.

@Whitedragon:
I guess you missed the "Khorne Pure" part.
Even if the OP wasn't entirely pure with his list with the inclusion of the CSM squad, aside from made up fluff, it would be hard to just throw in a Warptime DP or Lash DP as both wouldn't have Mark of Khorne which is what I'm guessing the OP was looking to do.

A greater daemon: meh, he's still killing off an important skull champion with or without a special weapon as that's the 'REAL' way they are carving through units.

Lesser daemons start to be viable IMO at 10 man squads, which conflicts with the fluffier 8 man squads.

@Lord-Loss:
Defiilers: I say taking 3 is over the top, a pair is efficient, while having a spot left for some oblits.

About troops... I don't know, I run 30 plague marines at 1850 and I've always felt it wasn't enough. More just seems better for chaos, troops are the backbone and IMO what win you games.

My 7 Cents.

What does it matter about MoK of on the prince? There is better wargear out there than having a naked prince which makes the prince more combat affective. As long as its painted khorne colours thats what matters. I think some folks get too tied up with the background and try to incorporate it into games, even though there is better wargear available.

A greater daemon is only good for a naked champ. Don't want to buy a power fist only to have your champ blow up guts and a G.D pop out.

@mercer:
The OP said: "CSM Khorne Pure" as the title.
Then has 2 MoK Princes as the HQ.
Seems like he wants to stick to the theme.

If you don't want to stick to theme fine, I'm only suggesting to stick with it.
/shrug.

I run Princes differently. I do not use/rely on them to be combat monsters (they are brutal already). I use them in a distraction role, killy vs. infantry/tanks already, relatively durable already, target saturation, and the points cost make them DISPOSABLE, which is how I use mine and my Spartan Princes have done well enough without powers or marks.

As long as its painted khorne colours thats what matters

That is true. But i covered my bases, notice I said:

aside from made up fluff

which indicated I did take note of the count as aspect of things, but keeping it simple is something I prescribe to.

Anyway, WT is still more expensive than the 2 Marks of Khorne, in addition, WT is not always a sure thing. There are pros and cons to each.
In addition if the OP is a RAW junkie, he might not like warp time.

My 7 Cents.

I'm gonna largely agree with Sanctjud, if your like me then personally I like to go for themed armies which are still very capable of holding their own in a game then keep the MoK DP's, i mean a daemon prince is kick-ass as it is, MoK is a bonus (albeit one you'll have 2 pay for! )...

Personally im not sure about the termicide unit, I'd say the (rhino mounted) 2/3 powerfists, 2 winged DP's, a lascannon and 4 Oblits are enough anti-tank (and a battlecannon), you could drop the termicide unit and POTENTIALLY get a rhino for your CSM's and with a few trimming around the list (say dropping the Plas and down-grading a PF to PW) you may be able 2 squeeze a fun and khornate CCW dread 2 help with target saturation and killing... either way I feel you should drop the Termicide IMHO

Defilers are fine, yeah not as good as Oblits but if you like the model and arent 2 obsessed over winning then field it, its still a very reasonable unit...

good luck with it...

The input is appreciated.

I am not opposed to warptime because it could always be justified as an improved blessing of khorne.
(its for CC and assault carnage so not really a big stretch) I just couldn't find the points.

I will drop the defiler and just take 6 oblits. I'll save the defilers for "just for fun" games.
Oblits will be more survivable in competetive games. It is one less kill point too.

I can drop the 10CSM las/plas... however, I REALLY feel that I must have 4 scoring units at 1750.
- and one of them should probably be sitting back and camping one of my rear objectives.
I really can't decide what would work.

If I take warptime on the DPs I'll have: 156 pts for 1 more scoring troop
If I take DPs with just wings that leaves: 206 pts

Doesn't really give me a lot of options... suggestions?

Well... Me may kill himself, kill himself alot, but the Khorne lord on juggernaut w/ 2 daemon weapons screams 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD' in a way that even kharne the betrayer fails to manage.

Aside from that, 1 tzeench prince and an upgrade from CSM to zerkers sounds like fun.

Sanctjud wrote:Anyway, WT is still more expensive than the 2 Marks of Khorne, in addition, WT is not always a sure thing. There are pros and cons to each.
In addition if the OP is a RAW junkie, he might not like warp time.

My 7 Cents.

Warptime is more expensive, but a lot better benefits than mark of khorne. What is the con to warp time and what are you referring to about raw?

@mercer:
-Benefits of MoK: higher maximum kill.
-WT Benefits: higher reliability in getting those 3-4 kills, but daemon princes usually hit on 3's and wound on 2's vs. infantry, the bonuses there are pretty minor.

Cons to Warp Time:
-It's a pychic power, and can fail and/or hurt you.
-It's a pychic power, in which case anti-pychic powers work against it.
-you have to use the power at the beginning of the turn, and most people forget about that, but that is RAW, and sometimes you risk hurting yourself and don't reach combat.

Honestly, the best bang for your buck from WT is using it to hit moving/moving fast vehicles, but then you waste the second effect of RR wounds on the power.

Now the RAW issue is:
You re-roll ALL hits and misses. Not just the failed hits. But generally the RAI says otherwise. I wouldn't force anyone to play it that way though, the RAI seems clear they wanted to rr the misses.

My 7 Cents.

When you say higher maximum kill what exactly do you mean? MoK only gives one extra attack, doesn't help you get maximum kills - which would be all hits.

Wounding isn't too bad, its hitting which is the problem scoring all hits is better than missing half of them. If you add MoK only gives you one extra attack, you could still not hit.

Warp time has the normal cons as all psychic powers, but its benefits out weigh those. The prince has high ld value and not a huge amount of anti psykers.

I'm not sure what the issue is with the rule? It says you can re-roll all rolls to hit and to wound. Obivously it means failed hits as your not going to re-roll hits are you? I think that rule is pretty clear and I don't think any one is going to say you need to re-roll ALL hits and misses as that power could be negative. I think your looking into things too much on that one.

@mercer:

Higher maximum kill is higher maximum kill.
Base/Base+Charge
5/6 Attacks MoK Prince = maximum 5/6 kills.
4/5 Attacks regular prince = maximum 4/5 kills.

Simple as that. People will weight each differently.

Obivously it means failed hits as your not going to re-roll hits are you

That's what you say.
That's what RAI says.
That's NOT what RAW says.

It's not looking to deep, that's what RAW says, but most will play by RAI.

/shrug.

I'm just giving an even look at Warp Time, i'm not a crazy fanboy like others.
Warp Time gives the prince reliability in getting those 4 wounds, but you pay through the nose for it.
The effective bonus is not that high either compared to Sorcs.

My 7 Cents.

Yeha but my point is that extra attack doesn't mean its going to hit does it?

I've read the rules on warptime (never noticed it before) and its true what you say, but I think anyone will use common sense and say its failed hits. I think it anyone would play it like that is a serious rules lawyer . 25 points isn't that bad price tbh.

I never said it does hit.
I'm just saying people weight different things...differently.

Some people rather like the extra attack banking on the higher maximum hits as opposed to more reliable but less by one maximum hit.
___________
Like I said several times, some gaming groups take RAW very seriously, other have space for RAI, it's just a cautionary note there.

I don't know, 25 points is alot, esp. for a points intensive army like Chaos, but to each their own view points.

My 7 Cents.