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This story brought up a lot of questions for me.




I am totally with that Mother, she is for real deal banana peel.

Mainly what it brings up for me is the lack of opportunity all of us face in the U.S. I see very few options for the "average" person in our society. If you want to succeed there is literally no option but to be perfect now. Is this an evolutionary step? I can't really see how this kind of elite "only the best of the best of the best" system benefits anyone besides those that are deemed perfect from the start.

It has to do with how you dress, and how you live, more importantly how you perceive the world. This kid is a born dancer to be sure, but being in a dancing school makes no real difference to what point I am trying to make. When you look at colleges it is dreadfully obvious that this is the case, but it is true of practically any field I have looked into. Journalism is a very intriguing situation, simply due to the drastic changes being made to how we get our news... more often than not, having no need whatsoever for anything more than low-level researchers.

Do you want to be successful? By the definition most see as success, this would involve profuse amounts of money. In this area of "real" success, you will see only a few small set of "hand-picked" (like apples or something, because all the other apples are bad) and evenly branded people. I am talking about a really small portion of the population here, as in sets of ten to a hundred. What does this do for everyone else who tried just as hard, or don't try at all because they know how this game works?

This is not to say that a meritocracy is not a fantastic thing, but when the standards for most colleges go above and far beyond the "average" achievements, and you have a massive proportion of the population competing (with very little success mind you) with the rest of the world, there will be an obvious gap that has and will continue to form. When I look at the competition from other countries (China being the most obvious) and how intensely they focus on encyclopedic education, I see absolutely no reason to get up and try. It seems to be a waste of time, and an insult to the situation that a lot of these overseas students have come from. I am not talking about a bit of studying, not even a lot of studying; I am talking about a life that revolves around (living, breathing, and being text memorization) education. Lives that are nothing but study, which I cannot even begin to really fathom.

So this woman's kid has some very clear talent, and that I would consider to be a "god given gift". This in turn (IMHO anyway) sets up a situation where there is this kid... and then the rest of the class. So you end up with a whole new generation of branded faces that are not only "natural/forced talent" but heavily supported by many people and organizations who take little to no time to help anyone else get anything done.

I will hand this over to the forum so I can set up a bit of brain-work on this.

I don't really understand what you are getting at? Are you saying that everyone should succeed, like "everyone is a winner" mentality? I sure hope you aren't...

In a nutshell, I am saying that I think the system we have now is inefficient at best.

There will be no point in time where everyone has material success, and clearly so. I just think that the gap is widening so profusely, it will eventually swallow up a huge portion of the educated population.

It would also be nice to see more research on what education is actually "needed" for any required field.

My arguments are usually quite confused at first, I just wanted to hear what a few people had to say before I reached any solid conclusion.

Totally. Only a small percentage of any species are truly successful, and the rest just have to struggle to get by. It used to be said that if everybody on Earth lived to the standards that most Americans of middle class enjoy, there would have to be three planets filled with highly productive slave laborers to support them with material goods, not to mention services. Don't be so obsessed with the heights of success. If you want to do the work and strive for a batter life, fine, but just don't get it into your mind that the Universe owes anything to anyone.

This has nothing to do with the universe, it has to do with society and how we need to function in order to succeed on the whole.

Who is the hardest hit by this recession? The middle class, and this almost always seems to be the case. More often than not, the upper class only gets slightly less rich, while the lower class tends to be a "haven" of sorts for the unlucky middle class who fail.

Being poor is being poor, it doesn't change all that much... unless you happen to be booted out to Africa somewhere...

What is panhandling?

a form of begging. asking for/expecting handouts from people in general for no real return from you.

Basically, it's what I hear a lot of immigrants are doing with the welfare system in your country, notprop. Yeah, us too.

grizgrin wrote:Basically, it's what I hear a lot of immigrants are doing with the welfare system in your country, notprop. Yeah, us too.

Wait... what? Could you be a bit more specific about that last part... that was entirely unnecessary... on my nachoes... with the jalapenos that I DID NOT ASK FOR.

I am telling you man, if we just dug a hole and threw all of them in there, we would all be much better off... In fact, I think that they should be thrown in jail for even asking for help... weaklings...

LINE OF LOGIC!!! Be bold about what you are saying mate... come on, at least have a sincere opinion about something as serious as welfare.

I think everyone should get what they work for.

Don't work, don't get.

..I am both atonished and dismayed that MDG has not Viz'ed this thread already.

People can have difficulty finding paying work though, yes?
I know I did, and I have a good degree and plenty of experience at various things.

I think education should be free for anyone who wants it, however, I do think that this can lead to a situation where a degree or a masters becomes "required" for even piss easy jobs. That is stupid. HR departments need to wake up and realise that a degree doesn't qualify you any more than the next person for most nonspecialist jobs.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I think everyone should get what they work for.

Don't work, don't get.

I am sure you would not include a small portion of the population in there for obvious reasons... like being wheelchair-bound, or perhaps being a vegetable.

There is nothing I would like to see more than a real system of welfare in the U.S. providing opportunities for those that are less fortunate. Room and board for part time work, along with a serious scrutiny to who can gain access to the cut and dry handouts. These situations do not exist because (IMHO) people on both sides do not care, and this shows quite profusely when you talk to some people on the left who so voraciously defend their precious system of "change".

One side is extreme, as is the other, but the main difference is that the right has a realistic view (sort of...), while the left has a ignorantly moralistic view on the whole. If you think that people should die for their mistakes, more importantly for their "god-given" life circumstances, by all means, that is a rational take on a real problem. It is truly not your problem, but the left has a sincere point of being human, and caring for your fellow people.

Looking at the system now, it is obviously an uphill battle either way, but taking a stance of my way or the highway... has obvious consequences. People do not just up and die... they get mad and try to survive, which they very well should, and I sincerely respect that outlook, especially when it comes to people with children. For an immigrant who has absolutely no options but to get welfare, I am quite sure that they would be incredibly happy to hear how much disdain the westernized world has for "failure", and how obtusely anything can defined as such.

Everything human is failure, the fact that we cannot figure out how to take care of our own species is epic failure in a nutshell. Gods we are not... idiots we may very well be as a group.

Da Boss wrote:People can have difficulty finding paying work though, yes?
I know I did, and I have a good degree and plenty of experience at various things.

I think education should be free for anyone who wants it, however, I do think that this can lead to a situation where a degree or a masters becomes "required" for even piss easy jobs. That is stupid. HR departments need to wake up and realise that a degree doesn't qualify you any more than the next person for most nonspecialist jobs.

More epic fail on humanities part... and I thought we could make it to the stars . People can't even get jobs with degrees, let alone live fulfilling lives. You could call that natural, but it is clearly human, and not representative of most similar species by any stretch of our twisted little imaginations. Keep in mind that humans are not evil, just "bad", and clearly stupid on more than one count.

Deers run when they see danger... we throw poop... clearly a winning strategy for any situation, wouldn't you say? Light it on fire Bartholomew, that should make this party really kick off!!!

One thing about welfare, especially in the case of unemployed people, I think there needs to be more scrutiny of each case. They need to make sure the people claiming welfare are making honest and sincere efforts to find work, and reduce payment if they are not.

As far as welfare payments to disadvantaged people (disability allowance, lone parent allowance, all these sorts of things) I'm generally in favour of them, but would back harsh penalties for abuse of the system.
(heh, better though would be harsh penalties for politicians and high up civil servants who abuse their systems. I can dream. We all know, gak rolls downhill.)

Da Boss wrote:(heh, better though would be harsh penalties for politicians and high up civil servants who abuse their systems. I can dream. We all know, gak rolls downhill.)

This is self defeating logic, and the Politicians are (for the most part) doing what they can to address the issues that people present... and present them poorly they do. Nothing can be agreed upon, we all want our ice cream, and we also want cars... but the only way to get there is to climb that mountain surrounded by vicious packs of wild animals... that are supposedly our fellow man...

The responsibility is on all of us... we make this stuff happen if you were not clear enough about that point. More bluntly... we let it happen, and just sit there moaning as a big group when things go sour, after we just sat there and yelled about it all day.

Crap does not roll downhill... we throw it at each other like hot potatoes...

Well, I agree that the onus is on every individual to make responsible choices, but in Ireland at least, the high up civil servants are taking the piss big time. Do some reading into it, it'd make you sick the way they waste taxpayer's money. Americans would never stand for it!

I think... that... yeah... 24 billion disappeared? Yeeaaaahhhh... okay then. 24 billion is like the largest sundae I have ever had the honor of daydreaming about... like a sea of boobs you are Sundae... like a sea I tell you.

This is on the federal level of course, but that kind of oversight is epic fail, and we seem to have these problems in nearly every country at least in some way.

I would also like to point out that I have been referring to Humanity on the whole... so you can take this anyway you want, just don't call it a contrived personal attack. Talking to the reader BTW, no one in specifics.

One problem in the USA and UK now is the unpaid internship system.

It largely limits apprentice level jobs to the children of the top few percent of wealthy people. Doing an internship opens all kinds of opportunities for further career development.

Ahh begging! Thank you for the explanation.

I have heard of begging being very lucrative in certain circumstances, some otherwise capable people dressing up and taking to the streets, I saw one report in the news where they followed a beggar back to his car, where he got changed and drove back to his house in the suburbs. I seem to remember figures of £25-30k a year being recouped by certain individuals in Central London, not bad seeing as it is tax-free. I think the Met came down on this some time ago though and can't remember seeing a begger in town? No need with the Big Issue I suppose?

Usually I would say more credit to anyone who is willing to do anything to give their children a better chance in life but begging is beyond the pail.

As for immigrants claiming welfare in the UK (these will be asylum holders and probably well deserving IMO) that really is a non-issue, for every one that can claim some benefit (very little I might add) there are many more working (not always legally) and those that are working will be paying tax. Even those working under false paperwork will be paying tax.

The real problem wit the welfare state is that it has created systemic British non-workers whom are so used to not working even confronted with an opportunity to better themselves will sit on their backsides and take the free money. True certain industries have collapsed in the last thirty years but we have made it too easy to not work. Why can some one travel from Africa to work as a labourer on a Construction site in Central London, live in one of the most expensive cities in the world and not only support himself but also a family and yet a long term unemployed Brit not?

I have foreign nationals working for me on my Construction sites, they are keen as mustard and honest (all having substantiated their right to be in the UK and right to work here). We would gladly have British nationals working for us in these positions, and indeed prefer them to limit language problems with Health and Safety, but Brits willing to labour do not exist. Large populations of institutionalised unemployed do exist in many areas but are not relocated for work.

I like the welfare system in the UK and indeed have had cause to use it but it does have some glaring flaws.

As for youth unemployment, no wonder its so high (well only 10%) if they hadn't all chosen those media studies degrees they might know how to do something useful!

notprop wrote:Ahh begging! Thank you for the explanation.

I have heard of begging being very lucrative in certain circumstances, some otherwise capable people dressing up and taking to the streets, I saw one report in the news where they followed a beggar back to his car, where he got changed and drove back to his house in the suburbs. I seem to remember figures of £25-30k a year being recouped by certain individuals in Central London, not bad seeing as it is tax-free. I think the Met came down on this some time ago though and can't remember seeing a begger in town? No need with the Big Issue I suppose?

You have to know how silly that anecdotal evidence is... I hope.

Usually I would say more credit to anyone who is willing to do anything to give their children a better chance in life but begging is beyond the pail.

Why? Explain to me why... I would point out that this lady's son had a scholarship for 45,000 DOLLARS!!! Needing that last few thousand had to have been seriously nerve-racking. Humility is a very important lesson in life, I wonder how you might handle this same situation... as in you... in their shoes... with the same amount of... umm... no options.

The real problem wit the welfare state is that it has created systemic British non-workers whom are so used to not working even confronted with an opportunity to better themselves will sit on their backsides and take the free money. True certain industries have collapsed in the last thirty years but we have made it too easy to not work. Why can some one travel from Africa to work as a labourer on a Construction site in Central London, live in one of the most expensive cities in the world and not only support himself but also a family and yet a long term unemployed Brit not?

So... umm... the English are just lazy? Not wanting to do back breaking and sometimes life threatening labor is not a sign of weakness mind you. In all honesty you answered your own question mate... these guys come from bad-ass land, and walk high on bad-ass boots, with the willingness to go far beyond that which the "common man" would. Your situation may be slightly different, but down here in the bayou, our wetbacks work damn hard, tell you what. Just a mite harder than any man I seen, and I seen many a man working, being one of them myself when the opportunity does arise.

I have foreign nationals working for me on my Construction sites, they are keen as mustard and honest (all having substantiated their right to be in the UK and right to work here). We would gladly have British nationals working for us in these positions, and indeed prefer them to limit language problems with Health and Safety, but Brits willing to labour do not exist. Large populations of institutionalised unemployed do exist in many areas but are not relocated for work.

Yet again I think you answered your own question. The positives outweigh the negatives, so my question is why would you want to have English workers if they are so lazy, or possibly nonexistent? I got family out there on dem islands mate, and the situation seems to be a lot more grim than you are putting on.

I like the welfare system in the UK and indeed have had cause to use it but it does have some glaring flaws.

In a nutshell most of our welfare programs barely work out here, and the reasons for that are extreme to be sure. Medicare is about the only program that seems to be serving it's purpose with proper intent and application. Saying here is a few hundred bucks... goodbye... is basically how the rest of the system is set up. On top of this there is a "rockstar quality" associated with ripping off the government out here... which oddly enough is basically ripping yourself off... funny how that one works.

As for youth unemployment, no wonder its so high (well only 10%) if they hadn't all chosen those media studies degrees they might know how to do something useful!

This, I agree with wholeheartedly, and I cannot even begin to describe how hard it is to find work where serious qualifications come into play. Thank god I can work with my hands and mind by nature, because I would be one lost individual without my art and design. This is not to say that I have calibrated my laser beam of truth just yet... it seems to show only stuff that makes me want to live in the woods .

There was an item on Radio 4 this morning about a proposed reform of social security which would encourage people to go back to work who at the moment find it monetarily ineffective.

Of course there are two sides to this; one is the fact that social security can pay a substantial amount if you are in the right (or wrong?) circumstances -- the other is that many jobs are so badly paid that a family can't get a living wage out of them. They're also jobs for people with very limited skills and education, which are easily captured by migrant workers who often have a much better level of capability than the UK natives.

I'm not condoning welfare layabouts. I just think there are more troubles in the system than the way that unemployment benefit is phased out as your earnings increase.

It's not just people with media studies degrees and the like that have trouble finding jobs. My degree was in biology and physics, and I can program to an extent too. But it was still impossible to get work. Everywhere looks for 2 years experience, which is a wonderful catch 22 when you are starting out. I tried applying places like cinemas and shops, but never heard back. (Well, actually the cinema wrote back a stock letter saying I wasn't qualified enough for the job, which I found hilarious)
I ended up lying about my qualifications to get a job working as a security gaurd. That job evaporated when the company left the country, but luckily I was able to get work in my aunt's creche for a few months. Now I'm back in education (training as a secondary school teacher) but chances are when I go looking for a teaching post there won't be one. So it'll be back to desperately scrabbling for any bit of work, and having employers assume that because I'm educated I think I'm "too good" to do menial tasks. Woot.
Still, rather my situation than that of someone with no qualifications.
But the will to work isn't enough, is my point. There will still be people who can't get work.

What does it mean to be overqualified? I seriously get perplexed by that perception...

If the only analogy involves an elephant and some sort of small doorway... yeah... that fails , but I still fail to see the point of that... would a donkey make more sense? Now I am stepping into political territory, with the animals or symbolism and the who cares because I cannot find work situations...

Da Boss wrote:It's not just people with media studies degrees and the like that have trouble finding jobs. My degree was in biology and physics, and I can program to an extent too. But it was still impossible to get work. Everywhere looks for 2 years experience, which is a wonderful catch 22 when you are starting out. I tried applying places like cinemas and shops, but never heard back.

As a generalization, I think that speaks quite truthfully of the situation that many students put themselves in. By no means is a degree in biology and physics an "unnecessary" one, but in some ways it would only provide relatively niche-bound jobs... not that any work would be "bad" or something. The fact remains that there is a huge amount of competition in nearly every field now, and that can be attributed to the massive amount of education being toted throughout the worlds populace. The fact that people in Africa can read and write, can be directly connected (in a rather obtuse way mind you) to the fact that there is a lack of work the world throughout... which is an obvious fallacy in reality, but the systems we have set up do not allow for the type of progress needed to achieve such relatively lofty goals.

There is work to be done EVERYWHERE, you can create industries with the help of the government and with a society-based effort. "Eco-friendly" careers are about my only hope in a field of that general nature. I would obviously prefer to do design and art, but the market for this limits itself to a lack of progress yet again. I would like to see a huge archive (well organized like wiki) of media (images, video clips etc...), generic stuff mind you, archives of pictures of noses and toes, then an archive of horses and cats or something. I know there are a few poorly stocked sites, but a universally available "free-ware" version would be a fantastic advancement in the use of the internet.

Nah Wrex; anecdotal evidence is fine, everyone says so. Buh-dum-tish!

Why? Explain to me why... I would point out that this lady's son had a scholarship for 45,000 DOLLARS!!! Needing that last few thousand had to have been seriously nerve-racking. Humility is a very important lesson in life, I wonder how you might handle this same situation... as in you... in their shoes... with the same amount of... umm... no options.

Had my humble pie this year when I got made redundant two months after my first child arrived, sucked it up went down the dole office and saw exactly what the people I talk about are like. Fething useless the lot of them and you're right you wouldn't want these people working for you. But if that approached work in the same way as the foriegn chap then they would have plenty of work.

Haha, didn't see the clip before now (was at work, no tube!), sort of inferred what it was about . Sorry wrong end of the stick completely! DJ Strong should be smacked up side of his head for letting his mother demean herself like that! Was that dancing? I have better Jazz hands than that! If she really needs a few thousand she should sell some of that whale blubber in her back pocket to the Japanese, she'd make a mint!

So... umm... the English are just lazy? Not wanting to do back breaking and sometimes life threatening labor is not a sign of weakness mind you. In all honesty you answered your own question mate

British you mean dude! Can't have the Scots and Welsh thinking we do all the laziness, it is a union after all. Doing nothing, taking money off of the state, moaning that there are not opportunities and letting someone travel half way across the world when you won't travel an hour down the road is weak/lazy by any definition. they could have more money if they worked but will not apply themselves or expect to get decent money from the get-go without proving themselves.

Yet again I think you answered your own question. The positives outweigh the negatives, so my question is why would you want to have English workers if they are so lazy, or possibly nonexistent? I got family out there on dem islands mate, and the situation seems to be a lot more grim than you are putting on.

I didn't realise that I had posed one? You would have British labour over foreign because in simple terms they would understand the lingo, and maybe wouldn't fall down lift shafts/under trucks because they could understand simple instruction/signs. Not such an issue with US Health and Safety legislation but quite a bad position to be in in the UK.

Its all Grimdark in Warham land, unless you have a secure job which pays well, which thankfully I now do! If you have the security/finance in a recession then there are many opportunities to advance. It is the perfect time to up-size on you home for example - I.e. more house for you money + low interest rates.

In a nutshell most of our welfare programs barely work out here, and the reasons for that are extreme to be sure. Medicare is about the only program that seems to be serving it's purpose with proper intent and application. Saying here is a few hundred bucks... goodbye... is basically how the rest of the system is set up. On top of this there is a "rockstar quality" associated with ripping off the government out here... which oddly enough is basically ripping yourself off... funny how that one works.

That almost sound like socialism to me, BURN THE WITCH!! Ahem sorry came over all American then, mst have been the Orio cookies I had for lunch.

Well you are perfectly entitled to let you poor and helpless die in whatever circumstances you wish. I understand that you are now a racist if you disagree with Mr Obama, good luck with that, and there was me thinking he was as black as he was white?

This is not to say that I have calibrated my laser beam of truth just yet... it seems to show only stuff that makes me want to live in the woods .

Have you tried attaching you lazer beam to a shark, I understand that they compliment each other famously?

Join the military and reap the benefits of the GI Bill. Of course you're going to have to pass physical, mental, and background standards to get in but I'd think most people in the US of A could get accepted. You'll get some of the best healthcare available and four years of work experience that looks good on just about any resume unless you screw yourself over and get dishonorably discharged in which case its worse than having felonies on your record.

There's very little risk of actually seeing combat especially in the Air Force and Navy and the Air Force especially is more like a civilian corporation than a military setting. You'll also come out a more focused person with a lot of skills and training that'll help your entire life.

YO JOE!

Wrexasaur wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I think everyone should get what they work for.

Don't work, don't get.

I am sure you would not include a small portion of the population in there for obvious reasons... like being wheelchair-bound, or perhaps being a vegetable.

There is nothing I would like to see more than a real system of welfare in the U.S. providing opportunities for those that are less fortunate.

All I know is that in 3rd world countries people don't have debilitating back pain preventing them from working. Because there is no welfare system if they don't work they don't get money/food and they die.

I don't wan't my tax dollar paying for the lazy to bludge, or the hopeless government to waste of lame, do nothing projects.

Wrexasaur wrote:

notprop wrote:Ahh begging! Thank you for the explanation.

I have heard of begging being very lucrative in certain circumstances, some otherwise capable people dressing up and taking to the streets, I saw one report in the news where they followed a beggar back to his car, where he got changed and drove back to his house in the suburbs. I seem to remember figures of £25-30k a year being recouped by certain individuals in Central London, not bad seeing as it is tax-free. I think the Met came down on this some time ago though and can't remember seeing a begger in town? No need with the Big Issue I suppose?

You have to know how silly that anecdotal evidence is... I hope.

When I was working construction down in Las Vegas we had a guy come by the job site looking for a hand out. We told him our company was hiring because there was a lot of work. He turned us down, though, and said he could make more money begging. We were making a pretty good wage back then so he must have been making bank.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:All I know is that in 3rd world countries people don't have debilitating back pain preventing them from working. Because there is no welfare system if they don't work they don't get money/food and they die.

Ummm.... okay?

Don't have debilitating back pain because in lollipop land only candy is real... . I have absolutely no freaking clue what you could possibly mean by that mate, it is an obvious fallacy. Sure they die due to the lack of any welfare, but what in the feth does that have to do with magical lollipop land, with the lack of any pain, and the ability to just push push push???

Your obviously ignoring the full scope of these countries demographics, and their socioeconomic conditions. In more situations than not, there is no work, so at that point they do what? In a nutshell, they die, and I am quite sure that is what you are pointing at. I say if that is how you feel, you might as well be digging pits, and getting rid of the "waste".

Relapse wrote:When I was working construction down in Las Vegas we had a guy come by the job site looking for a hand out. We told him our company was hiring because there was a lot of work. He turned us down, though, and said he could make more money begging. We were making a pretty good wage back then so he must have been making bank.

Who are all of these magical people who have the ability to soak a living out of change? I do not doubt that some are lucky enough to actually do this, but for real though? COME THE FRAK ON!!! There is no way in hell that the average spanger can make it beyond the poverty line, just not going to happen. On occasion I am sure that people are particularly generous, but back in reality, they are most definitely no on average, and your more likely to... this is going to be a very rough conversation I tell you what.

grizgrin wrote:a form of begging. asking for/expecting handouts from people in general for no real return from you.

Basically, it's what I hear a lot of immigrants are doing with the welfare system in your country, notprop. Yeah, us too.

Yeah - you're about right.

I'm glad i'm not begging for my years at University/College.

4 years at over £10,000 a year is just freekin nutz.

I've still got my MA to go through yet.

£50,000 in debt by the time I graduate - It aint good.