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Had this come up in a game last night - we resolved it to our satisfaction, but we're curious if we did it right:

Under the LoS rules, it says that members of the firing squad don't count for LoS purposes (treat 'em like they're not there.)

Under the flamer rules, it says that you can't fire if the template would touch a friendly model.

Can you not torch up the enemy if there's one of your goobers in the way, or does he duck?

Thank'ee!

I would say the second rules takes precedent over the first.

You can draw line of sight through them, but i see no reason why you can place a template over them. Any model under the template is hit, and none of them should be friendly.

You CANNOT fire if you touch one of your own models.

Complete prohibition = winning rule here.

Similarly you can only maximise models (as required by the template rules) that also means you dont break any rules, like not firing into close combat or at friends. So it could be that only 2 models of a possible 8 in range can be covered, however that IS the maximum possible models as you are required to not break the other rules.

Can I get a page number on the flame thrower rule in the BGB please?
I might need to reference this against some burna boyz or is it a codex specific rule?

Just because you have LOS, it doesn't mean anything when the Flamer rules tell you you may not place it over friendly models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scalp wrote:Can I get a page number on the flame thrower rule in the BGB please?
I might need to reference this against some burna boyz or is it a codex specific rule?

Weapon Types, Template Weapons.

Thanks, fellas. That's how we played it - nice to get some affirmation!

Thanks Gwar!
You just saved my Wolves from a particularly nasty group of burna boyz who've been shooting through their own unit.

It makes sense, really. If someone is going to be using a flamethrower, they can't be lurking in the back ranks.

Seems like the OP's question has been answered so here's a follow-up:

The rule states you must 'maximize' models covered by the template but does it also imply you must maximize models from the unit you have declared shooting at? I see several people at my FLGS shooting a template at one unit and, since another unit is close by, covering multiple models from multiple units to reach that 'maximum.'

Is this legal or should I be calling BS? (not ballistic skill...)

DoW

I don't see why not... flame throwers deny cover... so the other group wouldn't give them a save. I don't see why it wouldn't/couldn't hit both groups.

can a unit shoot at two different units? ... no.
why should a flamer be able to?

DogOfWar wrote:Seems like the OP's question has been answered so here's a follow-up:

The rule states you must 'maximize' models covered by the template but does it also imply you must maximize models from the unit you have declared shooting at? I see several people at my FLGS shooting a template at one unit and, since another unit is close by, covering multiple models from multiple units to reach that 'maximum.'

Is this legal or should I be calling BS? (not ballistic skill...)

DoW

It actually states you must maximize models in the target unit.

Other units can certainly be hit, as long as they are not friendly.

Why not?
If it targets the first group, and carries past it into another... it wouldn't be any different that a scatter dice sending a rocket from one location to another.
It may not be the "nicest" tactic.. and a little bit of cheeze to it... but it makes sense.

Scalp wrote:Why not?
If it targets the first group, and carries past it into another... it wouldn't be any different that a scatter dice sending a rocket from one location to another.
It may not be the "nicest" tactic.. and a little bit of cheeze to it... but it makes sense.

You cannot place a blast marker to hit two units any more than you can a template. Blasts can scatter and hit 2 units, templates cannot.

But clearly if you place the flamer template so as to abide by the 'not hitting your own guys' and 'maximizing models in the target unit' and you get blowback onto another unit then you're allowed to do that.

Say you have two units of orks (x and O) and a flamer (F)

___Oxxx
F OOxxx
___Oxxx

If I fire at O and catch some of the x guys who are immediately behind them in the flamer blast then I ought to be allowed to hurt them as well. Heck, if I want to fire at x, as long as my flamer template can hit them, nothing should prevent the situational hits that will be generated to the Os.

Gwar! wrote:You cannot place a blast marker to hit two units any more than you can a template. Blasts can scatter and hit 2 units, templates cannot.

Gonna have to explain your line of reasoning to me on this one. Why can't a blast marker cover (hit) more than one enemy unit?

Does it say that a template weapon can't hit more than one group... the only things I see are.


1. Place the template to hit as many models as possible.
2. Any models fully or partially under the template are hit.
3. Wounds inflicted by template weapons do not have to be allocated on the models actually covered by the template, but can be put onto any model in the unit.

So if you follow the steps... would the wounds from the second unit hit count towards the first units wounds instead?

Scalp wrote:Does it say that a template weapon can't hit more than one group... the only things I see are.

1. Place the template to hit as many models as possible.

'of the target unit'

But otherwise I agree - neither blasts nor templates seem to have anything denying them the ability to frag additional squads as long as the initial targeting is legal. Though I've missed obvious stuff before.

don_mondo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You cannot place a blast marker to hit two units any more than you can a template. Blasts can scatter and hit 2 units, templates cannot.

Gonna have to explain your line of reasoning to me on this one. Why can't a blast marker cover (hit) more than one enemy unit?

Ok, my bad. I meant the Hole of the blast marker. As templates have no hole, my example makes no sense and should thus be ignored.

"Does not say it can't" is faulty.

What it says to do is place it covering as many target models as possible (or for blast - place the hole over the base) of a target unit. Then check which models are hit.

The only restriction is that friendlies cannot be under the initial (or only) placement.

Instead, why don't you simply target the unit behind the other unit with the flamer, then your template, in reaching the "target" unit will pass through the unit in front of them, snagging both? It's a good way to hit vehicles too. For instance, if you have vehicle with a gun and a flamer template (say, a Wraithlord), and there's a unit of troops standing in front of the vehicle - fire all of the wraithlord's weapons at the vehicle, even the flamer. Although the flamer cannot hurt the vehicle, the troops in front will be doused in flames.

The main reason not to do that, is that it can make assault moves much harder and, quite often, impossible.

kirsanth wrote:The main reason not to do that, is that it can make assault moves much harder and, quite often, impossible.

True, but even so, it proves that you can, in fact, hit two units with a template weapon. I'm not sure where the debate lies.

Gwar! wrote:Ok, my bad. I meant the Hole of the blast marker. As templates have no hole, my example makes no sense and should thus be ignored.

Because people missed this?

puma713 wrote:Instead, why don't you simply target the unit behind the other unit with the flamer, then your template, in reaching the "target" unit will pass through the unit in front of them, snagging both? It's a good way to hit vehicles too. For instance, if you have vehicle with a gun and a flamer template (say, a Wraithlord), and there's a unit of troops standing in front of the vehicle - fire all of the wraithlord's weapons at the vehicle, even the flamer. Although the flamer cannot hurt the vehicle, the troops in front will be doused in flames.

In a game against an IG player, he had a disembarked unit directly behind a chimera.

My wraithlord fired both flamers at the chimera, and being directly in front of it, both flamers hit something like 7 guardsmen each, while at the same time fulfilling the rule of covering as much of the target (the chimera) as possible.

All of the Guardsmen died, but I was still able to charge the chimera, which I wanted to kill as well.

well one game 2 troops of SM's were stacked back to back about 2" apart.

In I came with Typhus, targeting the back unit. this allowed for 6 hits on the front group and 8 on the back.

So is that technically illegal? even if I targeted the front group as my primary i could have done the same

So long as you cover as many models in the target unit as possible, it is legal.

The problem occurs if you could hit 9 models in the target unit, but instead hit only 8 (or less) so that more models in a different unit are hit.

Gwar! wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:You cannot place a blast marker to hit two units any more than you can a template. Blasts can scatter and hit 2 units, templates cannot.

Gonna have to explain your line of reasoning to me on this one. Why can't a blast marker cover (hit) more than one enemy unit?

Ok, my bad. I meant the Hole of the blast marker. As templates have no hole, my example makes no sense and should thus be ignored.

Okay, ignored................................

willydstyle wrote:

puma713 wrote:Instead, why don't you simply target the unit behind the other unit with the flamer, then your template, in reaching the "target" unit will pass through the unit in front of them, snagging both? It's a good way to hit vehicles too. For instance, if you have vehicle with a gun and a flamer template (say, a Wraithlord), and there's a unit of troops standing in front of the vehicle - fire all of the wraithlord's weapons at the vehicle, even the flamer. Although the flamer cannot hurt the vehicle, the troops in front will be doused in flames.

In a game against an IG player, he had a disembarked unit directly behind a chimera.

My wraithlord fired both flamers at the chimera, and being directly in front of it, both flamers hit something like 7 guardsmen each, while at the same time fulfilling the rule of covering as much of the target (the chimera) as possible.

All of the Guardsmen died, but I was still able to charge the chimera, which I wanted to kill as well.

That seems like a good tactic. As much as I weep for his guardsmen

A related situation could be iffy though. If the Chimera is actually out of range of the flamer template I would wager you can't fire the template at the Chimera and maintain that 'maximum' coverage could be satisfied with 'zero' coverage. Even if you could argue that, I think that it would still violate the 'out of range' rule with an auto-miss for all the guardsmen.

Tau player with some suits tried this tactic on me (shooting plasma guns and flamers at a Chimera) when he was a good 12" from his target but standing 1" next to a squad of vets. I shut him down but was that a good call?

Thoughts?

DoW