Smokers are now New York's most discriminated minority..

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**reds8n**

Maybe the ferocity against Barack Obama in America is generated less by the colour of his skin than by the fact that he still has the odd cigarette. He has always been splendidly honest about this. Unlike Bill Clinton, who lied about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky, the current president refuses to lie about his smoking (which many may regard as a more grievous offence than a sexual misdemeanour). Even after signing into law a new anti-smoking measure, he confessed to having "sometimes fallen off the wagon" in his struggle to quit.

To say this in the current American climate is brave; for the country seems to be moving inexorably towards prohibition. By admitting to being even an occasional smoker, Obama identifies himself with an minority that is now more likely to suffer discrimination than any ethnic minority group. The Mayor of New York, a former smoker himself, has even encouraged the harassment of smokers by saying that giving them "a not particularly nice look" when passing them in the street has shown that "social pressure really does work".

New Yorkers light up in the street because they are mostly forbidden to do so indoors; but even their right to smoke in the open air is under threat. The city's health commissioner, Thomas Farley, has said that he wants to ban smoking in New York's 1,700 parks and playgrounds, and on its 14 miles of beaches – a first step, one would guess, towards banning it everywhere. The mayor seems to have been taken by surprise by Dr Farley's plan, but he did not rule it out. He said that he wanted first "to see if smoking in parks has a negative impact on people's health", which is just about as verifiable as the existence of God. As he campaigns for re-election, however, he probably just wants to see what the popular reaction is, for he himself is as much an anti-smoking fanatic as Adolf Hitler and King James I of England before him.

In the circumstances, I was pleased to see a headline in the New York Times reading "Proposal of Smoking Ban Stirs a Sense of Tolerance", but the story below was not particularly encouraging. It reflected widespread scepticism about how such a ban could be enforced and also the view that other smells, like those of food or perfume, could be just as offensive as the smell of tobacco smoke. One libertarian even imagined a Soviet-style future in which people might be arrested for having nicotine-stained fingers. But the predominant impression was one of fatalism, with nobody willing to resist any anti-smoking measure and even smokers feeling too dispirited to protest.

It would be nice to think that London might replace New York as the most free and most tolerant of the world's great cities, but of course it won't. If it is true to form, it will just do whatever New York does a year or two later. The refusal of the council in Richmond, on the outskirts of London, to allow a photograph of Lynn Barber smoking a cigarette to be used in publicity for its literary festival was typical of local government attitudes in the capital. And these attitudes prevail throughout Europe. Even in France, a publisher has reportedly delayed publication of the autobiography of President Jacques Chirac because its cover photograph shows him with a cigarette between his fingers.

Our only hope is Boris Johnson. When he was running for the mayoralty, he was brave enough to question the national smoking ban in pubs and clubs. "What is the point of having local democracy if we don't leave decisions like this to a local level?" he asked. But the "sense of tolerance" that the New York Times thought it detected at home is as weak here as it is there, and Boris, Mayor Bloomberg's new best buddy, will doubtless find that there is no political future in it.

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I'm assuming that the laws mentioned here will, like every other one it seems, vary from state to state.

Do you think these smoking bans work ? We've got similar bans in pubs/clubs etc in the UK and it does seem to have an impact on the numbers of people smoking.

I smoke socially every now and again, and generally he lack of smoke in pubs these days I do take as an improvement, especially the family orientated ones. But it is a right pain in the ass if you're on a proper night out drinking if your mate has to keep stepping outside every X minutes. We hear occasion slow news day stories about a person/place that thinks they've found a loophole or are "making a stand" etc, but it seems the general progression is movement towards a smokeless society. Is this the case elsewhere in the dakka world ?

**Jimi Nemesis**

With the pubs/clubs it is the same here. No smoking. Unfortunately they are yet to ban smoking at Bus interchanges.

**reds8n**

That would be like a Bus Station I'm assuming yes ?

The Uni where I work has set up a few smoking shelters X distance from the buildings and I know the local NHS and councils are quite rabid about where their staff can and can't smoke especially if in uniform.

**Wrexasaur**

There is a similar push in some downtown areas in the Bay Area. In general, the law is that you cannot smoke within 20 feet of any vents and doorways... which, is you think for more than one second, is about the most direct message I can imagine sending.

You know what the funniest part is though? The cops only use it as a way to get "rid" of the homeless... because they are smelly AND they smoke

. I mean if that is not some messed craziness, I don't know what is. I understand that people do not like to see a bunch of homeless people laying around and etc... but I have to call bs on it, just because it is so utterly rank with elitism.

Same goes for this thing in New York really, the bit about the Mayor was the worst part though. The next step is to mace them... HOW DO YOU LIKE THE SMELL OF THAT YOU DAMN SMOKER!!! HUH???

The end is nigh...

**Jimi Nemesis**

I'm thinking so.

Pain in the arse when you are just sitting there with half a dozen 14 year olds are sitting theresurrounding themselves with smoke, and get offended when you tell them they reek...

**Wrexasaur**

I can understand (to some degree) how you would be worried about second hand smoke, but the smell though?

Am I mistaken in thinking that all large cities with a downtown area nearly always smell terrible? How about the smell of the sewer? Stop pooping you goddamn pooper!!!

Pull yourself together Wrex, your going to pass out laughing

.

**Necros**

I hate smoking, I hate walking by people that smoke or being near someone when their cloths reek of cigarettes. I think it's a disgusting habit. On top of that my grandfather, 2 of his brothers, a cousin, my mom's old boyfriend and my mom most recently all have died from lung cancer due to smoking. I would never, ever in a bazillion-million years smoke anything.

That being said, I think it's beyond stupid to be mean to smokers. You can mention you don't like the smoke in your face, but don't give them dirty looks or call them names or preach to them about smoking. I'm sure 999 times out of 1000 they all know what smoking does and are either hopelessly addicted or maybe they actually like smoking? some people do. It's none of my bidniss to tell someone what to do with their lives.

I like restaurants being non smoking now. But there should always be some area for smokers to go. If smoking were to be outlawed, would people quit? no, they'd still get their smokes somehow. Just like any other drug. Next thing you know we'll have people getting arrested for growing their own tobacco. It's just stupid.

Keep it legal, and EDUCATE the kids instead of sending them to their rooms for a time-out so they can play with all their toys anyway.

**JEB_Stuart**

I like to smoke, mostly socially, and it bugs me when people give me hell over all of it. Its my life dammit and I will choose what I want to do! Lord in Heaven, the smog in Southern California is just as bad, if not worse, than the occasional cigarette. Thankfully, in more enlightened areas, such as Texas, personal liberties are still observed and people can smoke in bars, pubs, etc. I remember when I was in England a couple months ago it was damn annoying to have to go freeze my gak off to have a cig while I was drinking with some friends at the pub.

**Ahtman**

The way it worked out here is that Bars/Pubs could choose to either be smoking or non-smoking, all other restaurants are non-smoking. A bar/pub can choose to go non-smoking, but if it does it has to wait a year before it can switch back. Had a bar nearby go out of business (mostly) because of it. The owners wife wanted to be able bring there infant son and leave him there and so wanted to cut out the smoking. Business absolutely died. Most of the people going there at the time were there because it was one of the few smoking areas in that immediate vicinity.

**Cane**

I agree with the notion that cigs should be banned in public areas especially ones with a lot of foot traffic like playgrounds and parks. However when it comes to private establishments it should be up to the owners choice.

One of the Hookah restaurants I used to frequent had smoking indoors and outdoors but a ban was enacted (this was in Tennessee) and turned to outdoors only. Not a big deal until winter months especially at night - too damn cold to be enjoyable. Got worse when there was adverse weather.

That said, smoking outdoors when "you're not supposed to" is usually just brushed off with a warning. Like jaywalking its not a very serious crime and you'll only get fined/whatever if you act like a douche about it.

**Ahtman**

I think smokers also did this to themselves a bit, as far as public smoking goes. How many times have you seen cigarette butts all over the place right next to an ashtray? How hard was it really to take the two steps to put it out there?

**Fateweaver**

My friends smoke and they think it's bs they can't smoke in a bar (where I live smoking is banned in all public places and you must be more than 10ft from any door/window/ac duct.

I, personally am glad I can go into a bar and drink without getting teary eyed and dry throat from inhaling someones smoke. I get told by smokers it is their right to smoke where they want, I come back with it's my right to be able to drink at a bar without having to suffer.

The attitude of a lot of smokers is what irks me. You have no more rights than I do concerning smoking. Some bar owners here *claim* the smoking ban has killed business but funnily enough they cannot produce numbers saying so and I also know people who never went to bars that often or at all who now go out 1 or 2 days a week because they can breath clean air and enjoy their drinks (well, at least as clean as beer and body odor is thought to be). I mean if the damn urge to smoke is that bad, set your drink down and walk outside the bar and smoke.

I laugh at smokers in mid winter here in Mn. The temps will dip to -40 to as low as -80F (including wind chill, not always actual air temp) and the smokers will bundle up in 4 layers of clothes, freezing the entire time, risking frostbite (at -80 frostbite will set in in about 3 minutes on exposed skin) just to get a fix.

So yeah, bitch about how smoking bans go against your rights and I'll point out it infringes on my rights to have to breath in your toxic crap (not to mention 2nd hand is worst than direct smoking as far as health issues).

**Ahtman**

There is also the point that of the many many places that a person can go that it is smoke free, choosing to go to someplace that allows it and complaining is a bit disingenuous. If you know that a place allows smoking and still choose to go in there, than you should deal with it.

**Fateweaver**

Up until the Mn ban on smoking in public places if I wanted to avoid smoke I couldn't go into bars.

Why should I sit at home because somebody wants to kill him or herself slowly and I don't want to kill myself along with them?

I mean, is it that damn hard to go without a cigarette for 3-4 hours or perhaps take it outside (now they have to thankfully)?

You chose to start smoking and now choose not to quit. Not my problem people are gullible, easily influenced, can't find other avenues for stress.

**sebster**

On the one hand, I agree with the idea that a place should be free to allow smoking or not, it's the owner's choice.

But few places here banned smoking. Now that you can only smoke outside, you don't come home at night reeking of cigarette smoke. It's nice to be able to wear a jacket out twice without having to get it drycleaned.

So yeah, I'm in favour of no smoking inside bars, clubs or restaraunts. The smartest venues will offer decent beer gardens and outside spots the smokers can use.

**Ahtman**

Fateweaver wrote:Up until the Mn ban on smoking in public places if I wanted to avoid smoke I couldn't go into bars.

Oh, we are talking about the past. I thought we were talking about now, where there are options.

Fateweaver wrote:I mean, is it that damn hard to go without a cigarette for 3-4 hours?

Well, it is an addiction, so yes.

**Khornholio**

Man, I could go for a smoke right about now.

**Wrexasaur**

ahtman wrote:Well, it is an addiction, so yes.

An addiction that you should be shot on sight for no less...

. I mean after all...

fateweaver wrote:(not to mention 2nd hand is worst than direct smoking as far as health issues).

I lol'd... I most definitely lol'd.

I am not arguing that people should be able to smoke in restaurants or even bars for that matter, I don't really care about that. But in all honesty, I would not hesitate to complain INSTANTLY about the foul, nose wrenching perfumes and colognes some people wear... I mean, that IS the reason people are complaining right? The smell?

Second hand smoke... okay, I can understand that in a restaurant, no questions asked. When it comes to parks, and public places, if you sit next to a smoker, you should pay the "price"

. Bus stops I can also understand BTW, but if I walk ten to twenty feet from the stop while waiting for some bus, and people still complain, well... at that point you can kiss my smelly smoker ass. After all... you are going to get about as much "smelly" and "killy" from the direct smog being bellowed out by the damn bus, not to mention the rest of the crap you inhale from the other traffic... funny how logic works that way.

I swear to the Dakka gods I will break this ridiculous story in two... I hope I can maintain enough composure to avoid a nuclear flame war...

I just find this hilarious, especially in the U.S. where "personal freedom" is supposed to reign high and might *bs... ahem*. You get your guns, but no one can smoke eh? I smell bleeding heart hypocrites jumping all over this one. I can understand not liking the smell, but in all honesty, grow the feth up, and move on. Life is full of terrible smells, especially when you live in a downtown area. If you get smoke blown into your face (I would guess they are French at that point) you should probably be thinking about laying a smack in their goddam nose. But if someone walking into the street to have a smoke, because you officially cannot smoke anywhere else, is what it takes... I mean damn... this is no longer the land of the free.

If people cared, they would push for higher taxes on smokes (10$ a pack in New York if I am not mistaken) so it becomes literally like high priced cigars... guess what happens then? People start smoking Black and Milds... and if you think cigarettes stink...

, you got another thing coming. Oh, and you face stinks of lingdenberries and rotten soap made from a bunch of funky as chemicals and... well, your fashion sense is just terrible... JUST TERRIBLE!!!

I am offended by the way you dress, it offends my visual senses... in fact I am offended by this entire city even being here, it is ugly, and an eyesore... so there

.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

As a regular smoker (daily, and quite a bit) I really do take issue with the possibility of being described as a Minority facing discrimination.

Smoking might be an addiction, but it is my choice to smoke. However, to those non-smokers around me, I'm making the choice for them. If I light up, they are breathing in my second hand smoke.

This is not on. A discriminated minority to my mind, has to be something they have no control over (creed, colour, gender, sexual orientation). Smoking is categorically not one of them!

**Kilkrazy**

Agreed.

Smoking is a choice, not a genetic situation.

There's a brilliant depiction of outdoor smokers in Iain Sinclair's "Lights Out For The Territory".

**FITZZ**

I smoke,and attempt to be as considerate as humanly possiable to non-smokers, I absolutlely understand no smoking in restuarants (besides,I wouldn't want to eat with a cigarette hanging out of my mouth anyway),and I don't frequent trendy suburbanized dance clubs (all the clubs I go to are filthy dirty rock n roll type spots) so smoking at clubs isn't an issue to me.
However,this "one can only smoke at home under their bed in the dark" trend is anoying,honestly I had a gentleman recently tell me to " put that nasty thing out!" as I exited my car in a shoping center parking lot,I found this to be just a tad silly and replied to him he could "take it out my mouth and put it out himself",he chose to drop the situation.
I had to shake my head,this guy is out in public,breathing in car exhuast and god alone knows what other polutients are floating around,yet I"M the problem?
Seems to me as yet another example of people picking the most visable and easiest windmills to tilt against.

**Lordhat**

Fateweaver wrote:
So yeah, bitch about how smoking bans go against your rights and I'll point out it infringes on my rights to have to breath in your toxic crap (not to mention 2nd hand is worst than direct smoking as far as health issues).

It is? Where'd you hear that?

**Lukus83**

Well I live in China...and in this thread it appears this is the land of the free. Smoking is accepted pretty much everywhere.

For the record I'm a smoker. I know it's a foul habit. I know it causes health problems. I know other people who don't smoke don't like the smell. So I'm considerate. I smoke outside, at home or at designated areas at indoor venues (restaurants mostly...I don't go to bars). I personally don't see the problem in this. Of course some smokers have different attitudes, but why discriminate all smokers just because you had a couple of bad experiences?

When I went back to the UK I was impressed the most by Shangai's international airport. Instead of forcing everyone to go outside there were 2 designated smoking rooms. Out of sight, and the smell probably only wafted a few feet from the door...Why can't most places do this (especially in areas where people are really against it without the smokers having to freeze ther arse off by going outside)?

While I was in the UK I was 1 of the minority going outside every hour for a fix and I can tell you that was a royal pain...while protecting other people you can still make the smokers more comfortable.

**JD21290**

Do you think these smoking bans work ? We've got similar bans in pubs/clubs etc in the UK and it does seem to have an impact on the numbers of people smoking.

We also cant smoke in a public area if we are under a roof with atleast 2 walls

But yea, it may have cut down the amount of smoking, but its also taken a chunk out of the club/pub buisness now.
I know alot of people who refuse to go to certain pubs/clubs now and simply go to private ones instead as they can smoke there.

Also, alot of pubs have now made an outdoors heated shelter for smokers in an effort to try and regain some of thier lost custom.

**jamessearle0**

the last time a passer by told me smoking was bad for me i politely requested that they blow me

**reds8n**

jamessearle0 wrote:the last time a passer by told me smoking was bad for me i politely requested that they blow me

....did it work ?

**Ahtman**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:A discriminated minority to my mind, has to be something they have no control over (creed, colour, gender, sexual orientation).

That is an interesting delusion but has no bearing what so ever on what words mean. There are many things that are choices that people get crap over that are choices. Look at how gamers have been viewed for a long time for one example. People who play D&D are introverted losers who should be ashamed of themselves, or devil worshipers. Choosing a minority religious (or nonreligious) outlook has gotten many people discriminated against.

Of course that is ignoring the genetic implications. If alcoholism can have a genetic predisposition, the tendency toward addictive behavior may also be as genetic as well.

**Wrexasaur**

GMO people... wait... wait... bionic people would be cooler.

Ahtman is totally right on this BTW, the word 'minority' can be applied to many situations, and in many different ways.

Kind of like, potatoes... but not actually that versatile... but in a way, yes the word is that versatile.

In the same way that saying "We are all Charlie Manson deep down", is totally wrong, the same applies to this. With the amount of progress being done on gene research (they discovered what is believed to be the bipolar gene recently if I am not mistaken), there will be massive amounts of progress in finding what makes us tick. In a nutshell, many problems will be solved, and many generalized "wisdoms" will no longer be so easily applied to people.

**MadEdric**

I'm a smoker, try to be as polite as possible. If I'm upwind of a person, I usually move down wind so the smoke doesn't drift. I never take a drag as someone approaches so I'm not exhaling smoke as they get near. I also wash my hands and rinse my mouth after a ciggie and most people that have not seen me smoke have no idea I do.
Yet I seem to have to deal with idiots that are now emboldened by draconic anti-smoking laws that now feel they can lecture me about my "foul habit".
Banning smoking in bars is dumb. A bar owner should have the right to decide if smoking is allowed or not. You don't like, you have a choice to go elsewhere, something all who voted anti-smoking laws have denied me.
What's worse is that the tabacco shop I buy my cigs at can't have people smoking in it. A shop that caters to smokers can't let it's customers sample their product anymore (if you're a pipe or cigar smoker you know what I'm talking about).
My current response to "smoking is bad for your health" is "so is giving unsolicited advice to strangers".

**BrookM**

I'm asthmatic, people blame me for their inability to smoke in cafes, restaurants, bars and pubs now. Just when I think I can go out and have a drink I've got to avoid lynch mobs.