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Half of the threads in swap Shop are nothing to do with sdales and swaps here, just adverts for feebay.

Those who wisgh to trade on Dakka are swallowed out by reports on what someone has just put on auction. Whole a heads up is nice we can just go to ebay ourselves and check the listings as and when we want to.

Its time there was a seperation with a subforum for threads offering goods and one for auctions. If everything is brought into two subforums, then the root forum can be left for other concerns such as ongoing painting services, warning, info and feedback threads. This also helps as those offering a painting service will not need to bump their threads so much as they will not be competing anymore with the plethora of 'on eBay' threads. after all the three basic types of thread direct sales, auction pointers and painting service advertising move at different speeds, with the latter needing more time on front page.

Best for everyone I think.

I'm inclined to agree with Orlanth.

Seems like a lot of the ebay shillers (that is to say, those who merely post links to ebay rather than offer as trades before moving to ebay) tend to be newer posters as well. The ebayers also tend to bump their threads most often which is a detriment to people who're trying to trade within Dakka.


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Orlanth wrote:
Its time there was a seperation with a subforum for threads offering goods and one for auctions. If everything is brought into two subforums, then the root forum can be left for other concerns such as ongoing painting services, warning, info and feedback threads. This also helps as those offering a painting service will not need to bump their threads so much as they will not be competing anymore with the plethora of 'on eBay' threads. after all the three basic types of thread direct sales, auction pointers and painting service advertising move at different speeds, with the latter needing more time on front page.

On this point, Painting Services are listed in a Sticky Thread on the Front Page. We had hoped that it'd help with Painting Services not having to continuously bump their threads, though I have no data in either direction indicating the efficacy of that Sticky. I do agree that the ebay threads are getting a bit out of hand lately, though.

As I recall, the issue of separating the Ebay threads altogether was discussed, but the general consensus at the time was that simply forcing Ebay threads to be marked as such would be sufficent, as then most people could safely disregard them.

Going out on a limb here, I believe that Ebay threads are very rarely of any use to anyone, and very few people actually select them, despite the hopes of the initial posters. Feel free to contradict me on this point however.

As was mentioned before, sub-forums are in the realm of the Godmods(Yakface and Legoburner). However we can request such a thing if there was a demand for it.
As Jin said, there is an area set aside for the painting commission services, so that's not really an issue.

As far as I see it, there are the following options.

-Banning feebay threads altogether.

-Placing a minimum post count on those who wish to place feebay ads, thus reducing the number of one time posters.

-As mentioned, creating a subforum where they can grow old and die in blissful isolation.

-Leaving things as are.

I can almost guarantee however, that doing any of the first three will raise outraged cries from the members who use this place for feebay listings. And as Dakka members, they have as much right to be heard as you or me. Not only that, but what of more regular members who every now and again want to post an Ebay thread? I've even done it myself once, in the hope of garnering more attention for my goods.

Not to mention the fact that adopting any of those policies would require us three Swapmods to adopt a Stalinistic approach to weeding out the many, many people who will inevitably break the rules. But if that's what the members want, we are of course, more than happy to comply.

Thoughts from other members?

The biggest problem with ebay is that a lot of the users who post it are just interested in spamming their auction where it will be seen by as many people as possible. If we made an ebay only forum, people would not read it as the subjects are often vague and it is simply easier to search ebay itself. Banning ebay users/spammers is not an option because (based on a few experiments we have done), it will just flood into the rest of dakka in places like news and rumours and consume lots of valuable moderator and user time.

At the moment, having a merged ebay/swap shop area is the lesser of two/three evils though it is certainly not ideal. We used to get commission on ebay referrals but do not anymore which has killed a lot of my enthusiasm for developing ebay integration features in depth and so I am at a loss here beyond the status quo or perhaps different labeling for ebay threads in the swap shop to make them more visually distinct?

I'd be all for a separated Ebay subforum.

Personally, I list stuff for trade/sale to Dakka FIRST and then once the locals have convinced me they don't want whatever the hell it is I'm trying to unload I'll then move it to Feebay. A minimum post count to weed out those not interested in actively participating would be welcomed too.

Without repeating my compatriots I'll keep it short and sweet. Also having read Legoburners reply, I must include that.

I say ban eBay listers outright from the Swap Shop. Create a thread just for them to wither and die.

It may be the lesser of two/three evils as is but really what are we talking about? With the advent of us Swap Shop mods we now have three extra eyes to police random eBay postings. As is, the Swap Shop is not the Swap Shop. It is an eBay advert dump. People that like to use the Swap Shop as intended are the ones paying the price. We post a notice of the new eBay thread and then delete the eBay threads outright from the normal Swap Shop thread.

For something like this I think it is best to do it all the way and enforce it from the get go. So what if people complain because, quite simply, the ones that will complain are the ones getting free advertisements out of it and Legoburner already stated DakkaDakka gets nothing for any eBay affiliation.

Anyway, these are my feelings. Let's do it.

We'll talk it over, but to clarify my earlier post, if ebay pushers dont get the views they want, they post in other forums which starts to pollute the whole site instead of the one heavily moderated forum and the moderator resources required to deal with that is the main issue.

as someone who has posted both regular trade and ebay links, i'd be fine with creating a separate forum. the ebay posts are usually the least helpful (just a quick blurb and a working link if you're lucky) in determining if you're interested in what they're offering. i go to the swap shop to look for trades, not purchases through ebay (which i already search separately). as stated above, the ebay threads are the most bumped and even repeated when the 7 day auction expires.

Perhaps this should be put to poll in the Discussions forum?

is it possible to add a poll to the existing thread? i'm tempted to start on in the discussions forum since more people go there but i think i'd be likely that a mod would close it since it doubles up with one here.

We generally dont use polls to determine forum actions as users dont have access to the same information and long term plans that we do. While you are welcome to add one, it wont have any more impact than being decoration for our decision.

consider your decision decorated then!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/258051.page

Jin wrote:
On this point, Painting Services are listed in a Sticky Thread on the Front Page. We had hoped that it'd help with Painting Services not having to continuously bump their threads, though I have no data in either direction indicating the efficacy of that Sticky. I do agree that the ebay threads are getting a bit out of hand lately, though.

The trouble with that is that painters have to compete with each other on the same thread, or link to another thread. Its messy and the thread can be derailed if we ever have a case of a painting dispute. A slow moving root forum absent of Feebay and trade threads will make painting service members lives easier. I think they deserve the little extra support.

Ketara wrote:As I recall, the issue of separating the Ebay threads altogether was discussed, but the general consensus at the time was that simply forcing Ebay threads to be marked as such would be sufficent, as then most people could safely disregard them.

These threads here do not really touch the main concensus for or against, it provokes opinions from those who stumble upon the thread that is all.

However the result here was not adequate. Yes auction threads might be labelled but that still involves a lot of shifting and a plethora of competetive bumping that swallows out many threads.

Ketara wrote:
Going out on a limb here, I believe that Ebay threads are very rarely of any use to anyone, and very few people actually select them, despite the hopes of the initial posters. Feel free to contradict me on this point however.

I concur, but they are of use to some.

legoburner wrote:The biggest problem with ebay is that a lot of the users who post it are just interested in spamming their auction where it will be seen by as many people as possible. If we made an ebay only forum, people would not read it as the subjects are often vague and it is simply easier to search ebay itself. Banning ebay users/spammers is not an option because (based on a few experiments we have done), it will just flood into the rest of dakka in places like news and rumours and consume lots of valuable moderator and user time.

I fiond that auction threads are not really community, if you are Dakka community you at least consider offering what you have to sell here, at least at first. If people are brash to go outside their box to spam auction links elsewhere on Dakka this only reinforces the point.

legoburner wrote:
At the moment, having a merged ebay/swap shop area is the lesser of two/three evils though it is certainly not ideal. We used to get commission on ebay referrals but do not anymore which has killed a lot of my enthusiasm for developing ebay integration features in depth and so I am at a loss here beyond the status quo or perhaps different labeling for ebay threads in the swap shop to make them more visually distinct?

I fail to see how it is the least 'evil' path to merge auctionand swap threads, if fact it has no real advantages other than it saves on mainting a slightly smaller forum tree, which from what I understand is not a bother or cost really.

Splitting the forums has the following advantages.

1. Unlike laballeing everything is self labelled by the forum is input. It is less likely someone will forget to use the right forum than forget to label their thread properly. Though both will occur.

2. 'Ebay' labels need sifting through to find the threads you want, they also tempt you. Many people stay away from auctions simple because they close the link poorer than when they opened it. While this is to a sellers benefit, and is the entire principle of advertising it helps to know that you will not necessarily be placed in temptations way. Also while ebay has the lions share of the auction industry other autction houses exist seperate labels might lead to confusion or slower information sifting.
A seperate subforum eliminated both problems.

3. By their nature these threads expire rapidly, the Ebay subforum could have an autoprune set at 14 days without inconveniencing anyone and saving Dakka bandwidth. Swap shop threads need to be left open for reference for a number of reasons.

4. Bad auction trades must remain firmly in auction territory. If you get a non-paying bidder or a bad seller issue it will be an issue for the auction site, not Dakka. Autoprune helps here.

5. Auctions and swap shop threads move at different speeds and swaps threads need more attention in the short and long term as the entire trade occurs here, auction threads are merely a pointer - click and forget (from dakka perspective).

6. We need to encourage those who take the effort to trade here, or at least distinguish between them and those who simply spam out auction links. Dakka traders often give a better price than they know they will likely get on an auction site not only to avoid fees but also because of the community.

legoburner wrote:We'll talk it over, but to clarify my earlier post, if ebay pushers dont get the views they want, they post in other forums which starts to pollute the whole site instead of the one heavily moderated forum and the moderator resources required to deal with that is the main issue.

There is money in it for them, so or custom and common decency take a back seat. Give them an autopruning forum let them advertise to their hearts content and let everyone know where it is. Everyone happy.

The trouble with that is that painters have to compete with each other on the same thread, or link to another thread. Its messy and the thread can be derailed if we ever have a case of a painting dispute. A slow moving root forum absent of Feebay and trade threads will make painting service members lives easier. I think they deserve the little extra support.

As they are in direct competition anyway, lining them up in one thread allows a potential customer (I include myself in this) to easily compare prices, locations and quality without the need to shift between several different threads. I believe a sub-forum would be counteractive to fast browsing, and allowing quick comparisons. To my knowledge, we have as yet received no complaints as to the painting thread, and many people have expressed approval for it's convenience. Whilst auction sites may well be a topic for a separate sub-forum, I do not believe that painting is, as there are simply not enough painters or traffic in that area to warrant it, not to mention the counterproductivity I mentioned earlier.

These threads here do not really touch the main concensus for or against, it provokes opinions from those who stumble upon the thread that is all.

However the result here was not adequate. Yes auction threads might be labelled but that still involves a lot of shifting and a plethora of competetive bumping that swallows out many threads.

I'm not too sure what you're saying here in the first two sentences. Could you please clarify? As to the bumping of other genuine trader threads down to the bottom, I am inclined to agree with you there, but ultimately, the responsibility for the creation of a sub-forum would lie with the GodMods, Yakface and Legoburner.