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This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy.

I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility.

After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

And then I log on to the internet — which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration — and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.

Cool story, bro.

I liked it, although I always go for the devil's advocate. The only thing you have incorrect is the part about spending your federal reserve notes. The Fed is not a government institution, it's a private company.

You're a lackey of the military industrial complex. Secret handshake and everything. Boooooooooooo!!!!

Lint wrote:I liked it, although I always go for the devil's advocate. The only thing you have incorrect is the part about spending your federal reserve notes. The Fed is not a government institution, it's a private company.

Like a lot of things, the idea that the Federal Reserve is a private company is both true, and very misleading.

The Reserve is 'owned' by the banks, but the scare quotes are important because it is nothing like regular ownership. A bank is required to own stocks in the Reserve if it wants to operate in the US. The return paid on this investment is minor, with most Reserve profits going to the Federal Government. Ownership doesn't give the right to select management, either, the board is appointed by the President. The goals and operations of the Reserve were set by the Senate when the Reserve was founded, and can be amended by the same body. Day to day operations are not controlled by any government body, though.

It's an odd system, but it's there for a reason as monetary policy is highly vulnerable to political interference. If government could control the purse strings of the Reserve they could possibly force concessions from the Reserve. By funding the Federal Reserve with mandatory bank money, it is hoped that the Reserve would be more independant.

But given that private investment doesn't pay much and doesn't give the right to select the board, it isn't a private company in the true sense of the term.



Cool story by the way, Typeline.

You know Sebster, if you knew as much about your own country as the US you could probably run for office and do some good. Well, not really but you could skim some money.

You had me until about right.....

Typeline wrote:and post on Freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.

there.

Ahtman wrote:You know Sebster, if you knew as much about your own country as the US you could probably run for office and do some good. Well, not really but you could skim some money.

Australian politics is dull... deathly dull. Australia has a similarly independant Reserve Bank but we just wrote a charter and said 'you're independant' without building this weird ass quango thing. The end result is about the same but way less interesting.

Was this a repost? This has the smell of a chain e-mail, or clever article-head blog entry.


Either way it's clever.

We have gone through the painful process of privatising most of our utilities and services, even "state" schools are getting run by private companies who hire "student managers" rather than head teachers.

The bosses of these private companies all seem to draw huge salaries (no problem if they are running a succesful business) whilst pleading poverty to the governtment who bail them out with subsidies paid for by the electorates taxes.

I am no communist, it is an unsustainable system and conflicts with the overwhelming human instinct to look after ones self.

However I do not believe you can effectively run a public service for profit, as any money made is handed out to share holders rather than being reinvested back into the service. It has also meant that the goverment has significantly less income and therefor is unable to sustain it's own spending, leading to a cut in genuine state services.

Recently a private bank, Northern Rock got into a lot of trouble buy giving people up to 120% mortgages, when the property crash came along and wipes thousands of the value of there stocks the company tumbled into administration, no one was able to buy them and write off the debt so the company was nationalised, it is now a stable, reliable and well run company.

If only we could nationalise our railway network again, we might have trains that run on time, rather than 6 different companies bitching over who is going to pay to clear leaves of the line

I believe the normal human impulse is to form groups and co-operate.

Of course, groups compete against each other.

This is supported by psychological theory developed from observation and experiment.

I am with you on re-nationalising a lot of our "public" services. And we need to follow the Paris firefighters route with our postal system; draw all the staff from the armed forces so they can't keep on striking.

And we certainly need to nationalise the buses. My montly ticket has increased in cost by almost 1/5th in the last year alone. And the buses never run on time and are always packed during term time rush hours (I usually have to stand crushed in a bus for 45 minutes on my way home from work during the whole of term time).

SilverMK2 wrote:I am with you on re-nationalising a lot of our "public" services.

QFT.

Especially the trains.

I never thought it would be possible to genuinely miss British Rail but, alas....

Kilkrazy wrote:I believe the normal human impulse is to form groups and co-operate.

Of course, groups compete against each other.

This is supported by psychological theory developed from observation and experiment.

Only where members of that group have a shared interest or common goal. When people have to give up something significant to themselves to join or remain within that group they will normaly leave it as they will see the cons outwieghing the pro's

squilverine wrote:Only where members of that group have a shared interest or common goal. When people have to give up something significant to themselves to join or remain within that group they will normaly leave it as they will see the cons outwieghing the pro's

Except we're not that rational. Or we are rational, but exactly what we want is significant to ourselves is unclear. Or it is clear, but one of the big goals is simply to belong. So when the group wants something we will often realign our own goals to meet the group.



And I agree on privatisation. Yes, the private sector has considerable strengths, but these are strengths that can't be leveraged to any and all ventures. Privatisation is often chased out of a blind assumption that making it private will make it better. As a result it's no surprise that a lot of privatised industries end up delivering a poorer product at a higher price, only to have the whole thing go bankrupt after a couple of years.

reds8n wrote:I never thought it would be possible to genuinely miss British Rail but, alas....

Is it just me who finds it stupid that they stick 2 cars on for a half hourly service at rush hours linking several large cities (Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds/Nottingham) - on which I used to travel about 2 times a week and virtually never got to sit down - often being crammed in like some kind of livestock, yet will put on a huge 2 train service (with about 9,000 empty 1st class sections) for a really common service during the middle of the day when no one is about?

It's the hideously byzantine pricing schemes that annoy me the most.

On the plus side the extortionate prices for even the simplest ticket prices me off the damned things anyway generally so it's rare I have to deal with them.

..and don't get started on the "buffet" prices.

Kilkrazy wrote:I believe the normal human impulse is to form groups and co-operate.

Of course, groups compete against each other.

This is supported by psychological theory developed from observation and experiment.

We form groups of people who are just like us, then immediately declare war on the heretics over the next hill.

squilverine wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I believe the normal human impulse is to form groups and co-operate.

Of course, groups compete against each other.

This is supported by psychological theory developed from observation and experiment.

Only where members of that group have a shared interest or common goal. When people have to give up something significant to themselves to join or remain within that group they will normaly leave it as they will see the cons outwieghing the pro's

The interesting thing is that experiment shows that group formation occurs when individuals are formed into groups with no common goal or interest, without any ideological or rational basis.

Some classic experiments were done by randomly forming volunteers into groups named after Austrian painters. The members of the groups soon began to exhibit in-group and out-group behaviours, although the only thing they had in common was that they were members of the Klimt group or whatever.

This does not mean that groups do not form around common interests, because of course they do. However it does show that group formation and the consequent in-group/out-group behaviour takes place naturally, as a result of basic psychological factors.

The thing is, society has many different groups within it, and people generally belong to more than one of them.

Thus, it's usually not a matter of abandoning every social group as much as it is a matter of realigning themselves with different groups if they come into conflict with one.

The Republican Party is completely self-destructing. In the United States we have a two party system. The two parties like to imagine themselves as ideological opposites (though technically not true). They both maintain a balance of power by acting like they are on the opposite end of issues. Republicans are mostly for capital punishment and against abortion. Democrats are mostly the opposite. Democrats mostly believe in moving towards a European style government that provides healthcare. Republicans mostly believe the opposite.
The problem is that Republicans assumed the wrong role on one particular issue. Democrats became "for government" and Republicans became "against government".
You cannot have a political party that is anti-government. You can't have working elected politicians that are anti-government. It's counter productive. Ronald Reagan ran an entire political campaign and presidency on the idea that he wasn't going to do his job and government was a bad thing. While he may have been elected twice, the voter base has become more and more apathetic with this rhetoric. Crumbling infrastructure, lack of healthcare, and expensive wars don't need people that want to take a back seat on actually being real leaders. It's like teachers saying "education is always useless" and a doctor saying "medicine is pointless, because we all die anyway".
This nihilistic and self defeating behavior is a mistake and undermining the balance of power. It's also insincere since the Republican Party is government and exists for government.

Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)21:54:49 No.166109863
File1255053289.gif-(356 KB, 259x240, 1254633204756.gif)

pic related.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)21:56:42 No.166110236
File1255053402.jpg-(50 KB, 640x520, 1253850765645.jpg)

Wez voted.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)21:57:47 No.166110449
I agree with OP to some extent, but in all fairness the democrats are fethed too because they fight with each other too much.

Issues like health care reform are a no-brainer, and frankly shouldn't even be up for debate at this point. But that doesn't stop the dems from attacking each other.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)21:57:58 No.166110498
File1255053478.jpg-(81 KB, 544x396, obamapotato.jpg)

>>166109560
Like he's going to do any better. Go feth yourself hippie.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:01:16 No.166111141
OP, you're a dumb fuckstick.
The GOP is not anti-government. The GOP is not based on the theory that government is a BAD thing. Our founding fathers believed in LIMITED government, not anarchy. Government was created to be used as a tool of the people. The party system was designed to prevent tyranny of the majority.
/signed, political science major.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:02:45 No.166111433
Republicans tend to support government enforcement of moral values. You mentioned abortion and capital punishment but they are also for outlawing drugs and gay marriage and often support censorship. Libertarians, at least, are more consistent.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:03:19 No.166111552
>>166110449
But there is a serious power vaccume opening. I highly fething doubt the stupid-fething effort to rebrand the GOP called "Libertarianism" will go anywhere.
Depending if the American landscape can generate a new political movement or not, may or may not displace power for both the GOP and the Dems. We'll have to see.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:04:53 No.166111870
>>166111141
You cann't have a political party that is opposed to government. It is like a religion that believes in ritual suicide before puberty (in other words, they get wiped out).
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:06:33 No.166112209
>>166111433
Haha and they've been talking about commies. What bitches.

Vodkafag
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:07:44 No.166112463
>>166111141

All political science majors are Socialists. Fact.

/signed (Actual) Political science major.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:12:13 No.166113377
File1255054333.jpg-(54 KB, 1047x512, LtzTNh.jpg)

>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:14:03 No.166113717
File1255054443.jpg-(13 KB, 200x351, 1253503888086.jpg)

>>166111141
You're a freshman/moron if you believe the party system was made to "prevent tyranny of the majority". George Washington and John Adams both opposed the party system. They thought it would create a power conglomerate that IS the "tyranny of the majority". Individual votes don't matter to the voter or the politician even. The political party, especially the one with the most power is king.
feth, drop out nao!
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:15:30 No.166114011
'don't get in the way of free market capitalism' is not the same as being anti-government.
conservatives believe the market is god and will self-regulate, despite having the opposite happen time after time after time.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:19:55 No.166114887
>>166109560
GOP=/=Libertarian Party
The Libertarian Party are basically anarchists with a different name. The GOP, however, only want the govt. to be used wisely. And usualy, used wisely=used sparingly
Lrn2Political Sciences, OP. Getting C's in college doesn't mean you know everything in the political world.

>>166111433
I don't find the censorship part so true. It's more of random people on both sides. For example, Tipper Gore is basically the same politically as her husband yet she was the leader in the PMRC movement. However Ted Nugent, Right-Wing America personified, is against censorship. It's one of the few things that are somewhat bipartisan. Also, the argument of "Morality by Law" is also visible in Democrats.

TL;DR Both parties are gak.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:21:24 No.166115170
>>166114011
The republican party is "anti-government". They want to abolish every federal program, and privatize everything else except their own jobs, title and paycheck. They don't care about anything else.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:21:34 No.166115211
File1255054894.jpg-(44 KB, 661x651, FqdwYR.jpg)

>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:21:58 No.166115301
File1255054918.jpg-(105 KB, 1264x594, IOCFXO.jpg)

>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:22:38 No.166115443
>>166114887
>The GOP, however, only want the govt. to be used wisely.
i hope you meant the libertarian party. everyone knows that republicans are social conservatives, projecting their morals/religious values on everyone.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:23:05 No.166115525
>>166114887
If "GOP=/=Libertarian Party" then why are all leading "Libertarians" registered Republicans? Why does all their funding and coverage come from Republican supported sources? There is no "Libertarian Party" it is a rebranding of the same old gak.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:23:06 No.166115529
>>166115170

Although untrue, even if they did why do they need to worry about your poor ass
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:23:59 No.166115698
>>166115170
>The republican party is "anti-government".
was* "anti-government"
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:25:30 No.166116001
>>166115525
Because if you want to be anywhere close to actual politics on the national level, you have to be on one side of the aisle or the other.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:26:05 No.166116116
>>166115698
so they are hypocrites about being hypocrites. Sorry I can't keep up, cupcake.
>> Anonymous Coward 10/08/09(Thu)22:26:19 No.166116167
The reason so many people are against the Republican party is not because they claim to be anti-government, but because they haven't followed through. Bush spent money like a drunken sailor. Being in favor of big government makes it easy for you to write regulation that helps your friends and create government that employ them. (at the expense of the general population. Basic economics shows how governmnet 'created' jobs destroy more jobs than they create, unless they provide a lot of benefit to the community per dollar as roads or police do.)

Most Americans want smaller government. They elected FDR, who criticized his opponent's desire to centralize power. Even Obama railed against government at times to try and get the conservative vote.

The thing is, it's so easy to be a hypocrite if your base is people who want small government.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:26:38 No.166116233
>>166111141

The founding fathers weren't one person. They disagreed on just about every issue, including the governments role. I fething hate it when people go, well, he founding fathers beleived what I say-- no, if you knew anything about American history, you'd know that the foundign fathers didn't agree on anything.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:26:45 No.166116271
File1255055205.jpg-(41 KB, 1037x541, AQhZZu.jpg)

>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:26:50 No.166116287
>>166116001
Then Libertarianism is a farce. Like I said.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:27:26 No.166116410
>>166115443

See, here is where you're right and wrong.
What if it's not the GOP pushing their religious values, but the Dems pushing their lack of morals ? I mean, it's the same argument the other way. Where do morals start and laws stop? Is Murder a moral or a law? In Japan it's illegal to have an affair. That's where the STATES rights come in, like CALI, they can allow gay marriage, vs say Georgia, will likely NOT. But with such an overbloated federal gov, they will try to impose their will upon all.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:28:30 No.166116629
Statism is the ltimate insanity. Statists believe that giving coercive power to a group of fallible humans will do what's in the best interest of a large population of fallible humans. States give the religious zealots and any zealots at all the opportunity to enforce they're beliefs on the everyone. Statists believe that their government bends economic axioms. They ignore that with the monopolistic State there is no economic calculation so regardless it will always fail. Putting this false sense of power into the people through voting is just a scam. Voting is not profit and loss, there is no economic calculation. It's amazing how American's praise government and scorn socialism/communism when these terms are more or less synonymous.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:30:16 No.166117001
File1255055416.jpg-(60 KB, 555x558, interests.jpg)

true dat

the parties are the same polotics are just a puppet show
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:30:21 No.166117019
>>166116167
but "Restricting government" is a party slogan for the GOP. Then they go through with that in practice and feth over established government systems (like the department of education and Medicare) and end up fething their own voters in the process. It is why they are losing power and will continue to lose power.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:31:20 No.166117215
>>166116629
Let the samefags (the democrats and republicans) have their fun.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:31:25 No.166117232
>>166116410
>CALI
> allow gay marriage

oh wow
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:32:23 No.166117452
>>166116410
well i don't believe religion should play any roll in marriage at all, so i can't comment on your example. but when i say they're trying to force their morals on other people, i'm saying they would restrict other people's rights because of their morals, which aren't generally agreed upon. it's generally agreed upon that murder is a bad thing, or theft, or rape. so taking people's freedom away regarding those is given. but when it's things like gay marriage, or abortion, or wiretapping people, or the patriot act, it's their programmed morals that get in the way. it isn't natural to discriminate against gay people, or to want to limit people's privacy. thats why republicans are social conservatives.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:33:09 No.166117613
>>166116629

> impose their will upon all.

Sorry we won't let you force us to pray to jesus at gun point. We're violating your rights by doing so
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:33:31 No.166117701
>>166117232

You're right, I forgot it got re-overturned or wtf ever, this past election.. california is so fethed up it's not funny.. anwyay, change that to a state that has gay marriage as acceptable on the books.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:34:47 No.166117960
>>166117613
Dumbfag, learn to read.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:35:17 No.166118061
File1255055717.jpg-(127 KB, 1277x646, pYpBnX.jpg)

>> The Undisputed Voice of Reason !ErY2TknG0w 10/08/09(Thu)22:35:44 No.166118166
>>166113717

You sir, are an idiot...
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:35:49 No.166118173
>>166117613
Holy gak. You completely missed the point of his post.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:36:23 No.166118299
>>166117613
wow. gtfo.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:36:31 No.166118325
the two party system is a ruse. it's there to distract you and it works like a charm. the two sides bicker fervently on every issue to give the appearance of being ideological opposites, but they have the same aims. they serve the same masters.

the power elite doesn't give a feth which party is 'in control' of government. it's all the same to them.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:36:50 No.166118389
U all mad

/thread
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:37:55 No.166118642
>>166117613
Umm, you do realize his post was addressing the fact that the State allows the Jesus freaks to impose their will, right?
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:38:57 No.166118845
>>166118299
>>166118173
>>166117960

Calm down ladies, I meant

>>166116410
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:39:10 No.166118898
File1255055950.jpg-(51 KB, 1082x463, aeHQoH.jpg)

>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:40:05 No.166119088
the right wing is not anti-government. they are against government controlling every aspect of our lifes. for example, health care and gun control.
>> Anonymous 10/08/09(Thu)22:40:10 No.166119109
>>166118166

shutup namefag. do you realize that was spam before?

Spluh?

I'm just trying to help people stay up to speed.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm just trying to help people stay up to speed.

Then post something that can be read in a sensible fashion, or perhaps a goofy picture. That jumble that was posted isn't worth the time to read.

The federal reserve is currently soliciting loans. To me that is scary. Basically your money in a bank is not a sure thing by any means. Are the liberals doing anything to help? Our automotive industry is crippled by labor unions while the Japanese have built car factories here and their business is booming. Is this the fault of the conservatives?I don't think so, not by a long shot.

If you don't like the system then go totally green. You can grow your own food, produce your own power and whatever else tickles your fancy. It's not going to be easy though and my bet is that you will take the easy route and stick with the system. Sure it's easy to whine but it takes something to do something about it.

G

:baffled: How has frazzled not posted in this thread yet?

Sorry I was doing some needed research on Halloween



Er, what?