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Im talking about powerful heavy hitting units (that can also be tough as a side bonus) with things like str6-8 weapons +

What are they?

Where are they?

I just dont seem em.

Shooting or CC?
Any model w/a Thunder Hammer is S8
Thunderwolf riders can get S9
Mark of the Wulfen gives Rending
Psychic Powers- Take a look at Jaws. Also a S7 in there
Grey Hunters can take PFists, meltas and Plasma
Long Fangs can take the usual dev weapons
Preds can sport Lascannons
Speeders can tote muti-meltas
So can dreads- and Plasma Cannons
etc...

Maybe you should see an eye doctor?

He's looking for Nob Bikers, I think.

Nob Bikers and Thunderwolves fit your criteria.

A Thunderwolf riding a nob biker...wait...that sounds wrong.

Yes, alot of models can take thunder hammers or powerfists but their very expensive.

Riders can be str9 but generally their str5 unpowered. Same applies to all rending, while useful, not staple.

I dont see many crazy damaging Psychic powers... but I do see that they can be very useful & utilitarian.

Anyone can field a dakka pred or a Land raider, but that doesnt have much to do with the OP does it?

Just wait til you have the Trickster go hug a Warlord titan. Smoosh. Dice-off. Bye-bye titan (possible).

Silly, I know.

I mean a statis bomb welding a Titans foot to the ground would cause serious issue;s for said titan.

He is okay but not specifically gribbly.

No powerful psychic powers?
The Jaws?
How is that not powerful?

Da Boss wrote:No powerful psychic powers?
The Jaws?
How is that not powerful?

2+ to wound is powerful. Instant death is powerful.

An Initiative test is not so always amazing. Its utilitarian in its application.

WG with Frost Blades 38 points each.

I'm thinking a small unit of these guys (say 6) being lead by a bare bones Wolf Priest.

24 on the charge or being charged, S5 power weapon attacks that hit on 3 against infantry. They can hurt most any vehicle in the game. The unit is fearless so any causalities that might take on the way in won't stop them from coming.

Eh, Ragnar + 5 GK Terminators gives you 10+10d3 S7 attacks at WS5 / I5.

That's a real whomper.

Thunder Wulf cav in small unit sizes with a power fist, frost blade, and thundershield will give you a real bully unit for relatively cheap.

But the real strength of the codex? In my opinion it's 155 point dual melta squads of assault Marines, 5 missile launcher Dev squads that can split fire for 140 points, and Fenrisian Wolves for 8 points.

You really have a LOT of options within the codex with 15 missile launcher shots at 6 targets and 30 T4 beast/cavalry models for under 700 points. That's absolutely brutal. Add a couple suicide Wolfguard squads with combi meltas for 300 and you've got a thousand point core capable of taking on anyone.

Feel free to waste the other half of your list on HeroHammer units, or just spam MOAR cav and cheap troops.

I second, or third, the point about Thunderwolf cav. They're T5, 2 wounds, can take 3+ invul, and powerfists for hitting power. You can even build them uniquely and play nob biker wound-allocation games if that is your thing.

Thunderwolf Cav with powerfists/thunderhammers are at S10, not S9.

they are base S5, doubled to 10.

Demogerg wrote:Thunderwolf Cav with powerfists/thunderhammers are at S10, not S9.

they are base S5, doubled to 10.

O rly.

Yes, okay. I am now starting to see where the hittyness is.. I've already noted a fair few cheap/awesome/combo fun but I wondered what is real hitty but yeah, cool.

Who has str7 attacks with ragnar blackmane? Str4 base +1 for the frost blade & +1 for furious charge... = str6. ?

Ragnar gives his unit Furious Charge. Grey Knight Terminators have Str 6 Power weapons.

And it's awesome because the GK's have WS5!

Demogerg wrote:Thunderwolf Cav with powerfists/thunderhammers are at S10, not S9.

they are base S5, doubled to 10.

Probably better suited to YMDC, but for HQ this is two stat modifiers. One gives +1S and one doubles. The cav are indeed base S5.

To OP: I think Eldar and Orcs would disagree with everyone getting LRs, predators, etc.

SWs are very hitty.

Wow... str 10 cavalry... reminds me of 3.5 Chaos Dex...
More reason for chaos to migrate to SW?

Units that may end up being power houses in dual role CC...

Wolf guard - the trick here is not to think like an organized codex chapter. Everything here is expensive if you spam. But wolf guard with combi-meltas cost less than plaguemarines, and although thundershield termies are a full plague marine more than codex thundershields, you can mix and match... imagine a unit with 4 combi-meltas hopping out of a land raider, popping your land raider and then charging its insides with 4 veteran space marines AND 3 thundershield terms.

Lone Wolf - terminator armor, chainfist. Oh thats obnoxious. A feel no pain eternal warrior two wound chainfist with a 2+ save just roaming around unchecked. Its not a "sledgehammer unit". But a couple of these, and a WG unit and some thunderwolf cavalry will be a frustrating prospect.

Thunderwolf cavalry - I think most people are missing that only one thunderwolf can take a special CC weapon. Two thunderwolves, one with a chainfist, make 4 unique T5 3+ save wounds that have 5 strength 10 attacks on the charge and 5 rending strength 5 attacks on the charge, at a 12" charge range with fleet. Seriously painful. If you felt the need, you could add an expensive storm shield to one or both.

A possible list from space wolves that will give my IG headaches would be...

WGBL warrior-born, thunderwolf, wolf claws

termie lone wolf chainfist and beastslayer
termie lone wolf chainfist and beastslayer
termie lone wolf chainfist and beastslayer

grey hunters 2x melta drop pod
grey hunters 2x melta drop pod
grey hunters 2x melta drop pod

2x thunderwolves 1 chainfist
2x thunderwolves 1 chainfist
2x thunderwolves 1 chainfist

long fangs 5x missile
long fangs 5x missile
long fangs 5x missile

Unlike nob bikers, everything listed here can be dealt with, but we've filled out tons of FOC but are only rocking 13 KP? Thats insane. Every turn you are facing down 13 distinct threats, all of them can handle tanks to some degree, a lot of it is in your face immediately. Almost nothing can be IDed. I don't know how powerful it would be, but I just put this example up to show that space wolves are less about one MONSTER unit, and more about these single, nasty, thorns in your side.

For example, my IG army would need some pretty seriously good rolls to eliminate these threats asap. I rely on blasts (small and large) and with single 40mm models, pairs of 60mm models, single 60mm models, and then smallish units of marines in cover being my main targets and with 4x melta and 15x missile launchers hitting me on turn 1 if i don't stop them, I'll have some seriously diminished firepower with which to combat the close combat units approaching.


If you are looking for something large, expensive, and beastly, I think it would either be a 5man thunderwolf unit with 5x storm shields and a chainfist (over 400 points) lead by a wolf priest on thunderwolf mount (i can't remember if they can ride thunderwolf, if not sub for wolf lord with saga of warrior born) or Ragnar leading a tricked out unit of wolf guard with a mix of marks of wolfen, chainfist termies and frost blades in a land raider crusader.

Shep, that is a beastly list.
It looks fun at the same time.

So tempting to chaosify stuff/count as... how much is that list, 2000 points?

I'm so getting some of those fantasy Chaos Wolves. 22 bucks for 10, and all the conversion material I need.

Why wolves when you could go with juggernaughts... or WFB chaos knights?

Maybe even chariots for the lols.

Converted large Space marine wulfen/werewolves, gotta get those juices going.

@Shep

That list is evil. I mean really evil.

Sanctjud wrote:Shep, that is a beastly list.
It looks fun at the same time.

So tempting to chaosify stuff/count as... how much is that list, 2000 points?

that list is 'ballpark' 1750. Points values approximated from memory.

The list is a little too spammy to be considered a tourney list, but would probably be a great place to start. I'm sure some units would have to go, and some would have to come in to shore up weaknesses. I mean its got literally no hope in hell against any kind of shootas and lootas list. But it certainly wrecks my all mech and semi mech IG (although the semi mech would do MUCH better with the help of platoons)

On your second note. Absolutely space wolves makes an excellent chaos counts as! I am really looking forward to many chaos players getting excited about playing again with a non-boring multi-dimensional list. I hope and pray that the concept of 'counts as' has finally managed to become acceptable to 40k players. First off, it is in the rules section of every codex printed for 5th edition. It is legal in all GW sanctioned tournaments, and can extend the lifespan of models that were purchased a while back and awaiting their codex.

I mean the juggernaut/thunderwolf swap is so painfully obvious. The chosen/wolf guard is equally obvious, and the grey hunter/chaos space marine similarity seals the deal. My good friend Somnicide has plans to paint up Lord Zufor as his counts as logan grimnar, and run a world eaters terminator force with berserkers counting as wolf guard in power armor and with berserkers models converted to ride juggers as his thunderwolf cav and khorne-dogs standing in for fenrisian wolves.

Another friend and gaming group buddy, AbsoluteBlue loves his black legionnaires but since starting chaos has realized that he has been using plague marines/oblits/princes in about 90% of his games. I've been encouraging him to bring in the chosen and his awesomely built chaos terms as WG, and use his favorite possessed models as mark of the wolfen upgrades. he already has predators and land raiders up the wazoo, and there is no need to play with speeders, LRCs and LRRs in a competitive space wolf list. That will give those models new life until chaos space marines get a codex that is as deep and complex as what loyalist marines and now space wolves have.

jmurph wrote:

Demogerg wrote:Thunderwolf Cav with powerfists/thunderhammers are at S10, not S9.

they are base S5, doubled to 10.

Probably better suited to YMDC, but for HQ this is two stat modifiers. One gives +1S and one doubles. The cav are indeed base S5.

To OP: I think Eldar and Orcs would disagree with everyone getting LRs, predators, etc.

SWs are very hitty.

I think the reasoning behind the S10 for characters is the wording of the Thunderwolf upgrade's rules. If I remember correctly, it states that it increases the profile, rather than givein +1 S. I think it would be similar to how the Destroyer Body changes the toughness of a Necron Lord, rather than giving a 4(5) type value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shep wrote:On your second note. Absolutely space wolves makes an excellent chaos counts as! I am really looking forward to many chaos players getting excited about playing again with a non-boring multi-dimensional list. I hope and pray that the concept of 'counts as' has finally managed to become acceptable to 40k players. First off, it is in the rules section of every codex printed for 5th edition. It is legal in all GW sanctioned tournaments, and can extend the lifespan of models that were purchased a while back and awaiting their codex.

I mean the juggernaut/thunderwolf swap is so painfully obvious. The chosen/wolf guard is equally obvious, and the grey hunter/chaos space marine similarity seals the deal. My good friend Somnicide has plans to paint up Lord Zufor as his counts as logan grimnar, and run a world eaters terminator force with berserkers counting as wolf guard in power armor and with berserkers models converted to ride juggers as his thunderwolf cav and khorne-dogs standing in for fenrisian wolves.

I'm working on something similar, but I'm planning on using Wolf Guard as Aspiring Champions for my regular units...maybe not as effective, but more fluffy from the perspective of my theme. I'm planning on making them Heresy era World Eaters, where the chapter is somewhere between a renegade legion and a Daemonic legion. I'm thinking of using Scouts as Bloodletters, because their Operate Behind Enemy Lines rule is as close as this Codex can come to summoning.

Saldiven wrote:I'm thinking of using Scouts as Bloodletters, because their Operate Behind Enemy Lines rule is as close as this Codex can come to summoning.

I'd scrap the bloodletters and instead use Chaos Hounds or Flesh Hounds for Fenrisian Wolves. They're both a more effective codex unit than scouts and are cheap enough to take in properly intimidating amounts.

Man that gives me an awesome idea for a "Hounds of Hell" army!

Yessssss there will be so, so, so many counts-as SW Chaos players.

I mean look at it all. old chaos Marine + counter-attack veteran skill = 18 points. Wolf guard?....

Old chaos terminator with counter-attack veteran skill = 33 points. Current Wolf guard terminators?.....

And they can take combi-weapons?

And they come with power weapons base?

Yeah. This. Is. AWESOME.

What's even better is we get ATSKNF as well even if we "Counts As" Chaos!

Or maybe its "And They Shall Know Only Fear!"

LET THE GALAXY BURN!