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My question is this... "Can an entire army be held in reserve?"

The reason I ask is because I'm thinking of playing White Scars (most if not all of the army can outflank), it may not be a great Idea tactically, but i'd like to know if i can. Let me quote a few sections of the rules that are slightly unclear. I've always played that you couldn't, but after looking through the rule book i noticed it doesn't anywhere say you can't.

First of all. The thought is if there's nothing of yours on the board you lose. However I read this in the rule book.

BGB page 90 "Wipeout!" section wrote:Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!

This makes me think that is only "calculated" at the end of the game... not the end of every turn, as we have been playing it.

Second, in the reserves section it says this:

BGB page 94 "Preparing reserves" section wrote:When deploying their army, players my choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserver. Units in reserve will become avalable in later turns of the game

So that doesn't explicitly ban holding your entire army in reserve.

Also, I don't want to quote each one but in the deployment styles, it never mentions a MINIMUM of stuff that deploys on the board... Dawn of War however does reference a MAXIMUM.

If someone knows somewhere it says you can't please let me know!

yes, you can start 100% in reserve, I do it in most of my games.

Seconded Demogerg's post when I play a fast list vs. an enemy army with limited infiltrators.

Putting your entire army in reserve is explicitly allowed by the rules. Nowhere does anything imply that you can't.

The Wipeout! rules are quite clear too. That ensures that clearing the table of units can not result in a win until after all units in reserves have entered the game.

Demogerg wrote:yes, you can start 100% in reserve, I do it in most of my games.

As do I. All Drop Pod Wolves are awesome

100% reserves is also the textbook strategy to counter an all podding army or one with a significant amount of deepstrikers.

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:yes, you can start 100% in reserve, I do it in most of my games.

As do I. All Drop Pod Wolves are awesome

Orly? I dont use any droppods

but I still start 100% reserves.

it gets some weird looks from people who dont expect it, but it works.

I think the only army that cant start 100% in reserves would be Chaos Daemons, because of their special deployment rules.

psf3077 wrote:I think the only army that cant start 100% in reserves would be Chaos Daemons, because of their special deployment rules.

They are the only army that are FORCED to deploy in reserves ;P its just that half are forced to arrive T1

This tactic was used at a recent euro tourney.

Russian White Scars player set up his entire army in reserve.

Opponent: French Tau (gunline) player with kroot as well.

Tau player set up his army, and then deployed his infiltrating kroot along the White scars' table edge. WS could not come on. French player won without firing a shot.

Can work, sometimes, though, you can really screw the pooch.

I have been planning on trying this strategy against He'stan armies, as they continually blow away my Land Raiders. My problem would be rolling for reserves, since my Land Raiders can't be dedicated I'd end up popping Grey Knights onto the board to wait for their trasnport.

But the strategy really screws with Daemons.

Matt1785 wrote:I have been planning on trying this strategy against He'stan armies, as they continually blow away my Land Raiders. My problem would be rolling for reserves, since my Land Raiders can't be dedicated I'd end up popping Grey Knights onto the board to wait for their trasnport.

That's not how transports and reserves work in 5th edition.

Jack

Matt1785 wrote:I have been planning on trying this strategy against He'stan armies, as they continually blow away my Land Raiders. My problem would be rolling for reserves, since my Land Raiders can't be dedicated I'd end up popping Grey Knights onto the board to wait for their trasnport.

But the strategy really screws with Daemons.

When you put models in reserve you declare which ICs they are attached to and which Vehicles they are arriving in, then you roll for the whole lot at once.

chromedog wrote:This tactic was used at a recent euro tourney.

Russian White Scars player set up his entire army in reserve.

Opponent: French Tau (gunline) player with kroot as well.

Tau player set up his army, and then deployed his infiltrating kroot along the White scars' table edge. WS could not come on. French player won without firing a shot.

Can work, sometimes, though, you can really screw the pooch.

I saw this picture for this... If he had any unit outflank it would have gotten onto the board. XD It was a stupid decision not to outflank by the White Scars Player. If he outflanked the Tau player would have had to cover 3 table edges and would have been unable to do it.

All demons are actually required to start in reserve and half come in on the first turn through a demonic assault rule. The same thing happens with a full drop pod army.

ZeroOP wrote:I saw this picture for this... If he had any unit outflank it would have gotten onto the board. XD It was a stupid decision not to outflank by the White Scars Player. If he outflanked the Tau player would have had to cover 3 table edges and would have been unable to do it.

Four actually, since you have to worry about blocking off the regular reserves too. Tankshock would've broken the line, jump packs, land speeders. The guy was completely blind to his own achilles heel, and it cost him the game.

Hrm, I must be thinking Dawn of War rules when I can't put my Land Raiders on the table with Grey Knights in them first turn.. since only troops and HQ can be deployed. Alrighty.

In the case of the Tau vs. White Scars, Khan wasn't allowed in the tourney. So, while a cautionary tale, it doesn't apply to the OP who will be able to use Outflank.

It's still risky. Legal, but risky.

A 40k tourny that disallows SC? That kinda sucks given they are a requirement to play certain lists...

nosferatu1001 wrote:A 40k tourny that disallows SC? That kinda sucks given they are a requirement to play certain lists...

Hai Guise I brought along my Farsight Enclave/Deathwing/"Salamanders" List!

It was the ETC's (European Team Championship). They have fairly strict composition guidelines, which they endlessly discuss (I have been told) before the tournament. It's also invitational, so it's not like someone just showed up with their White Scars and said, "Huh? I can't play Khan!?!"

Armandloft wrote:It was the ETC's (European Team Championship). They have fairly strict composition guidelines, which they endlessly discuss (I have been told) before the tournament. It's also invitational, so it's not like someone just showed up with their White Scars and said, "Huh? I can't play Khan!?!"

True...but special lists can be quite a lot of fun to play...what a bummer!

chromedog wrote:French player won without firing a shot.

As is usually the case with Tau games. But seriously, the guy walked right into it. There were no secrets about what was coming.

Ridcully wrote:As is usually the case with Tau games. But seriously, the guy walked right into it. There were no secrets about what was coming.

Sure there were... given that the rules don't actually cover what happens when your Reserves can't move onto the board, this 'win' was solely down to a judge's ruling, rather than tactics or lack thereof by either player.

I did this last night and it failed miserably... Never do it against horde orks with Gazgull.... His waaagh has them at your table edge by the end of turn two

insaniak wrote:

Ridcully wrote:As is usually the case with Tau games. But seriously, the guy walked right into it. There were no secrets about what was coming.

Sure there were... given that the rules don't actually cover what happens when your Reserves can't move onto the board, this 'win' was solely down to a judge's ruling, rather than tactics or lack thereof by either player.

Are you saying you would rule it any differently? I think it's a pretty straight forward win. Even if you say it counts as secrecy for deciding whether or not it was a win, infiltrators can and do block generic reserves. Any infiltrating unit with around 25+ models can do so. There's no way those bikes were coming in in any of the first 4 turns.

It doesn't count as clever tactics, it counts as bike idiocy.

Ridcully wrote:Are you saying you would rule it any differently?

In a tournament? Absolutely.

In a friendly game, sure, laugh it off and then start over with a proper game.

But in a tournament, ruling that a player's entire army is destroyed due to their opponent exploiting a loophole in the rules is, I would think, the sort of ruling that sees players deciding to never again patronise an event you're running.



I would have either ruled that the bikes could move on somehow (outflank, deep strike ala immobile vehicles, move on in the assault phase straight into assault, or simply through the line of Kroot on the assumption that the Reserves 'must move on' rule should over-ride the general Movement phase's 1" rule) or ruled that the game was stalled and that they should start over.

infiltrators can and do block generic reserves.

Sure they can. But unfortunately, the rules don't tell you what happens if they do so... so you need to create a house rule to cover it if it happens. The best time to do that is obviously before the game starts. But if it comes up once the game has begun the solution should be equitable, not something that just hands the win to one player without any actual game being played.

It was the bike players choice to hold everything in reserve when the opponent had a large infiltrating force. At the very least that's screwing with his reserves. And i think your 'ruling' wouldn't be a popular one. I'm of the opinion that the majority of people play that reserves that have not come in by the end of the game count as destroyed. It's one i've read many times, but yours isn't.

Ridcully wrote:I'm of the opinion that the majority of people play that reserves that have not come in by the end of the game count as destroyed.

Of course they are. That's an actual rule.

What's not a rule is Reserves immediately counting as destroyed if they're unable to move on. Nor is there are rule saying that Reserves that can't move on are exempted from the rule requiring them to do so.

So the rule governing what happens to the Reserves at the end of the game simply doesn't come into play. You never get to the end of the game, because you're stuck at turn one with models that must move onto the board but are unable to do so.



Hence the requirement for a house rule. You either find some way to allow the game to continue past the loophole in the rules, or you rule that the game comes to a crashing halt and the army in Reserve is destroyed... which is hideously unfair on that player. You might as well be running your tournament with both players just rolling a D6 at the start of the game to determine who wins.



Don't get me wrong... if you're playing in a tournament and your own tactical ineptitude sees your army wiped out in turn one, that's entirely your own fault. But having a game end before it actually starts due to a loophole in the rules? When you've paid a registration fee for the event on the understanding that you're going to be playing a set number of games? Nope, sorry, unacceptable.

Finding some way for the game to continue is the only fair solution.


And yes, I'm well aware that my suggestions weren't actual rules. They're suggested house rules. I thought I made that clear. The whole point was that the actual rules don't cover the situation, and so house rules are required.

I just played a 1500pt Annihilation/Pitched Battle game (GK vs CD). Terrain was stacked with a lot of cover on one side of the table with open area on the other. I won deployment, chose to go second from the oen side and put all of my units in reserves (Tri-Raider list, GKT's in an LRC, PAGK's in GHLR's).

Daemons deployed. The rest of the Daemons arrived. Two tanks roll on and start killing daemons. Last tank arrives and all three kill daemons. Game ended. Win for GK.

SJ