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Personally I think there are only very few times when putting your entire army in reserve is a good idea. It's seems too much like overreacting to your opponents strategy. You might get the first strike, but your coming in piecemeal so your strike will not be that effective and your giving your opponent the opportunity of taking you on a little at a time. I have seen lists that focus entirely on all outflanking fail badly as well. You really can't outflank an army if you don't have anything to hold them in place.

chromedog wrote:This tactic was used at a recent euro tourney.

Russian White Scars player set up his entire army in reserve.

Opponent: French Tau (gunline) player with kroot as well.

Tau player set up his army, and then deployed his infiltrating kroot along the White scars' table edge. WS could not come on. French player won without firing a shot.

Can work, sometimes, though, you can really screw the pooch.

this is the most cheesy, nooby and hilarious tactic EVER.

rofl

chromedog wrote:This tactic was used at a recent euro tourney.

Russian White Scars player set up his entire army in reserve.

Opponent: French Tau (gunline) player with kroot as well.

Tau player set up his army, and then deployed his infiltrating kroot along the White scars' table edge. WS could not come on. French player won without firing a shot.

Can work, sometimes, though, you can really screw the pooch.




this is the most cheesy, nooby and hilarious tactic EVER.

rofl

Agree!
have a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/257451.page#987917

ive done it before

the_emperors_renegade wrote:

chromedog wrote:This tactic was used at a recent euro tourney.

Russian White Scars player set up his entire army in reserve.

Opponent: French Tau (gunline) player with kroot as well.

Tau player set up his army, and then deployed his infiltrating kroot along the White scars' table edge. WS could not come on. French player won without firing a shot.

Can work, sometimes, though, you can really screw the pooch.

this is the most cheesy, nooby and hilarious tactic EVER.

rofl

It's neither cheesy nor nooby. It's quite intellegent and the White Scars player is an idiot for not having one single tank or rhino to tank shock onto the board. Not even something outflanking. It's just stupidity.

EzeKK wrote:It's neither cheesy nor nooby. It's quite intellegent and the White Scars player is an idiot for not having one single tank or rhino to tank shock onto the board. Not even something outflanking. It's just stupidity.

Yup, that WS player is such an idiot for not anticipating his opponent utilising a loophole to create a situation not covered by the rules and then finding a judge who ruled that the fair response to this loophole was to rule the WS army completely destroyed...


Once again, this is not a valid tactic, because it is not something that the rules actually allow you to do. The only way that blocking Reserves wins you the game is if you introduce a house rule that makes it happen. And that should be done before the game begins, not sprung on your opponent after the fact.

The problem is that GW doesn't expect these things to happen. They leave to many loopholes for gamesmanship because they just assume people play to have fun as opposed to all out winning.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:The problem is that GW doesn't expect these things to happen. They leave to many loopholes for gamesmanship because they just assume people play to have fun as opposed to all out winning.

That's no excuse for sloppy rules.

I've seen that scenario come up many times and for the life of me can't see why folks bash the Tau player for being a bad sport. The fault here lies totally with the guy that ran WS. All he had to do was put one unit of bikes somewhere in the center of the table and he would have had more than enough room to bring his guys in due to the 18" pushback for infiltrators. If anything I would fault him for using a "cheesy" tactic.

I'm going to call out Insaniak on it not being a valid tactic, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a house rule to result in a win. It just means playing out the rest of the game which will take all of ten seconds. The tau player simply doesn't move the models during his movement in each subsequent turn, the WS player can't do anything since he can't complete the move onto the table, and so you hit the end of the game where models off the table count as destroyed.

The rules are very clear. A unit must enter on the turn it is permitted to do so. It cannot stay off table. There are no exceptions listed to this rule.

The tank shock is a very different problem. If you follow the tank shock rules closely, tank shock should not be permitted. First you declare how many inches you are going to move. Then you point the model at the target, then you move it till it is touching the target. Then the target throws for morale. Since the model is not on the table, you cannot do steps 2 or 3 as required. Thus, unless you are prepared to waive the tank shock procedures, it would appear you cannot tank shock from off table.

I think that any player from now onwards who falls to this ploy deserves to lose. Equally in a tournament, the rules should explicitly state how this is to be handled because when all is said and done it is a game. Players come a long way to play in these tournaments and to lose without even playing seems very harsh. Judges should at least explain the situation to the player, especially as the area is gray enough that there will always be differences of opinion. However, one must consider that the ploy of leaving all the units off the table will work against several armies, thus it is up to the player to at least be aware of what the oponent is capable of. Large numbers of infiltrators or fast moving units are a clear warning.

horsa wrote:The rules are very clear. A unit must enter on the turn it is permitted to do so. It cannot stay off table. There are no exceptions listed to this rule.

Players come a long way to play in these tournaments and to lose without even playing seems very harsh. Judges should at least explain the situation to the player, especially as the area is gray enough that there will always be differences of opinion. However, one must consider that the ploy of leaving all the units off the table will work against several armies, thus it is up to the player to at least be aware of what the oponent is capable of. Large numbers of infiltrators or fast moving units are a clear warning.

How can it be a gray area if the rules are clear that units must come on the table? Like you said, the Tau player came a long way for the tournament as well. Should he have left room on the table for the WS player to deploy and possibly beat him. Now who got the short end of the stick? As I've said, the WS player tried a sneaky tactic by keeping his entire army in reserve to deny the only strength a Tau army has in 5th ED. Their shooting.

The gray area I was referring to is tank shock. This is a rule which needs a definite ruling from a tournament organizer. Myself, I would say it is not allowed based on the procedure outlined in the main body of the rules. If you cannot follow the procedure, you cannot use the rule being the theory.

The actual tournament situation outlined did not include this as a possibility.

I do not consider the judges decision wrong, just that it would depend on the environment, the rules of the tournament and what the likely reaction of the other players in the tournament would be. Many might think the win a cheap shot, especially if it placed someone high in the tournament results. because of it.

I admit that I have used this rule to my advantage to destroy flanking units. That is the risk we all take with the outflanking maneuver.

horsa wrote:
The tank shock is a very different problem. If you follow the tank shock rules closely, tank shock should not be permitted. First you declare how many inches you are going to move. Then you point the model at the target, then you move it till it is touching the target. Then the target throws for morale. Since the model is not on the table, you cannot do steps 2 or 3 as required. Thus, unless you are prepared to waive the tank shock procedures, it would appear you cannot tank shock from off table.

Why exactly can't you do 2/3?
From Arriving from reserve, pg94 "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge. Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."
You move on normally from your table edge, which includes the ability to pivot and collide with models on the table edge during a tank shock, unless you can find a rule that says otherwise.

Bookwrack wrote:I'm going to call out Insaniak on it not being a valid tactic, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a house rule to result in a win. It just means playing out the rest of the game which will take all of ten seconds. The tau player simply doesn't move the models during his movement in each subsequent turn, the WS player can't do anything since he can't complete the move onto the table, and so you hit the end of the game where models off the table count as destroyed.

You don't get to play out the rest of the game.

You get as far as the WS player's turn. He must now move models onto the table. He can not do so, as there is nowhere for them to go. Game stalls. Neither player can take any action because there is a compulsory action still to be made, and the rules don't tell us what to do when this particular compulsory action can not be completed.

I always thought you had to have 1 HQ and 2 Troop on the field and then the rest of your army could be held in reserve?

A bad one wrote:I always thought you had to have 1 HQ and 2 Troop on the field and then the rest of your army could be held in reserve?

No, in DoW, you CAN have UP TO 1 HQ and 2 Troops. The rest move in on T1, which is not the same as being put in reserves.

A bad one wrote:I always thought you had to have 1 HQ and 2 Troop on the field and then the rest of your army could be held in reserve?

In DoW you deploy up to 1 HQ and 2 Troops. The rest is either in Reserve or moves on at the start of turn 1. You declare whether or not they're in Reserves during set-up.

In the other two standard missions, you can set up as much or as little of your army as you like. Everything can be kept in Reserve if you so desire.

Gorkamorka wrote:

horsa wrote:
The tank shock is a very different problem. If you follow the tank shock rules closely, tank shock should not be permitted. First you declare how many inches you are going to move. Then you point the model at the target, then you move it till it is touching the target. Then the target throws for morale. Since the model is not on the table, you cannot do steps 2 or 3 as required. Thus, unless you are prepared to waive the tank shock procedures, it would appear you cannot tank shock from off table.

Why exactly can't you do 2/3?
From Arriving from reserve, pg94 "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge. Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."
You move on normally from your table edge, which includes the ability to pivot and collide with models on the table edge during a tank shock, unless you can find a rule that says otherwise.

The reason this would be prevented by the "Kroot Tactic" in the mentioned European Tourny:

When a Tank Shocking vehicle stops it's move due to a Death or Glory attack, what happens if an infantry model immobilizes it? Can you have a tank that is partially/completely off the board? (note: the issue of models being off the board is similar to the arguments over the wings of the Valk.)

Che-vito - yes, you can have amodel partially on the table.

The rules for moving on the table only require you to put the model on, nothing more is required. This is totally different to models moving off the table, btw - and there is no reciprocity.

So yes, you can indeed tank shock on. There is no issue with this!

Che-Vito wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

horsa wrote:
The tank shock is a very different problem. If you follow the tank shock rules closely, tank shock should not be permitted. First you declare how many inches you are going to move. Then you point the model at the target, then you move it till it is touching the target. Then the target throws for morale. Since the model is not on the table, you cannot do steps 2 or 3 as required. Thus, unless you are prepared to waive the tank shock procedures, it would appear you cannot tank shock from off table.

Why exactly can't you do 2/3?
From Arriving from reserve, pg94 "When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge. Each model's move is measured from the edge of the battlefield, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn and moved as normal."
You move on normally from your table edge, which includes the ability to pivot and collide with models on the table edge during a tank shock, unless you can find a rule that says otherwise.

The reason this would be prevented by the "Kroot Tactic" in the mentioned European Tourny:

When a Tank Shocking vehicle stops it's move due to a Death or Glory attack, what happens if an infantry model immobilizes it? Can you have a tank that is partially/completely off the board? (note: the issue of models being off the board is similar to the arguments over the wings of the Valk.)

Even if this is true it in no way prevents the action from being initiated, it merely might cause a rules hang.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Che-vito - yes, you can have amodel partially on the table.

The rules for moving on the table only require you to put the model on, nothing more is required. This is totally different to models moving off the table, btw - and there is no reciprocity.

So yes, you can indeed tank shock on. There is no issue with this!

Quote me where it says that you can have a model hanging off. Better yet, quote me what happens if a model is COMPLETELY off the board. You can't quote a rule for this, because it doesn't exist...period.

If an enemy model immobilizes your vehicle with a DoG attack, and you have not set any part of the vehicle onto the board yet (aka, the enemy model is right on the edge), then what do you do?

Che-Vito wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Che-vito - yes, you can have amodel partially on the table.

The rules for moving on the table only require you to put the model on, nothing more is required. This is totally different to models moving off the table, btw - and there is no reciprocity.

So yes, you can indeed tank shock on. There is no issue with this!

Quote me where it says that you can have a model hanging off. Better yet, quote me what happens if a model is COMPLETELY off the board. You can't quote a rule for this, because it doesn't exist...period.

If an enemy model immobilizes your vehicle with a DoG attack, and you have not set any part of the vehicle onto the board yet (aka, the enemy model is right on the edge), then what do you do?

Quote me where it says that you can't, as the rules for how to move on granting you the ability to tank shock seem clear enough. If there isn't a contradiction here (like being unable to try to move on when you 'must') then I don't even think the game hangs in this case. The tank made a legal movement by the reserves rules and the infantry made a legal response... unless the position of the tank is expressly illegal it apparently sits there partially off the table.

Che-Vito wrote:If an enemy model immobilizes your vehicle with a DoG attack, and you have not set any part of the vehicle onto the board yet (aka, the enemy model is right on the edge), then what do you do?

The same thing you do if you have to move reserves onto the board, but can't because there are enemy models in the way: You discuss it with your opponent and create a house rule to deal with the situation.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Che-vito - yes, you can have amodel partially on the table.

The rules for moving on the table only require you to put the model on, nothing more is required. This is totally different to models moving off the table, btw - and there is no reciprocity.

So yes, you can indeed tank shock on. There is no issue with this!

Quote me where it says that you can have a model hanging off. Better yet, quote me what happens if a model is COMPLETELY off the board. You can't quote a rule for this, because it doesn't exist...period.

If an enemy model immobilizes your vehicle with a DoG attack, and you have not set any part of the vehicle onto the board yet (aka, the enemy model is right on the edge), then what do you do?

Quote me where it says that you can't, as the rules for how to move on granting you the ability to tank shock seem clear enough. If there isn't a contradiction here (like being unable to try to move on when you 'must') then I don't even think the game hangs in this case. The tank made a legal movement by the reserves rules and the infantry made a legal response... unless the position of the tank is expressly illegal it apparently sits there partially off the table.

Or wholly off the table? You haven't answered this part of my post. You can troll, but you can't run!

I agree with insaniak on the thought of "talk to your opponent" about it. For friendly games, I wouldn't attempt a tactic like this, heck, I wouldn't do so at local tournies! At the higher levels of tourny play though, suddenly it becomes quite irrelevant what "you and your opponent agree to" and more relevant with what the TO thinks.

Sadly, what the TO decides is entirely dependent on the individual TO, as RAW there is no ruling for the situation I have presented.