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Get 4 flamers and a combi-flamer, then put 'em in a rhino to the front line...

Yep, that's it now...

You realize that only four Havocs in a unit can have heavy weapons right? Thus if you wasted 3 heavy support slots on them you would have a total of 12 heavy weapons and even taking the cheap option of a single unit of five Havocs and a Missile Launcher (Not what you're saying) you could have had 2 far more flexible Obliterators.

One of the best ways to use them is to give them four flamers and give their champion a combi-flamer and power fist. Then stick them in a Rhino and burn a unit before finishing it in the assault. You could even go with 3 flamers and a melta, burn a unit down and hunt a tank afterward.

I'm sorry to say, but you're just so wrong it hurts.

Agreeing with Norade.
Im gonna use them as 2 plasma guns, 2 meltaguns with 4 bodys (bolters) and IoN, then stick them into a rhino. Expensive, but god damn usefull squad.

Norade wrote:You realize that only four Havocs in a unit can have heavy weapons right? Thus if you wasted 3 heavy support slots on them you would have a total of 12 heavy weapons and even taking the cheap option of a single unit of five Havocs and a Missile Launcher (Not what you're saying) you could have had 2 far more flexible Obliterators.

One of the best ways to use them is to give them four flamers and give their champion a combi-flamer and power fist. Then stick them in a Rhino and burn a unit before finishing it in the assault. You could even go with 3 flamers and a melta, burn a unit down and hunt a tank afterward.

I'm sorry to say, but you're just so wrong it hurts.

I'm really NOT wrong, mate. I was just waiting for someone to say "lets get a bunch of flamers and get 'em to burn the enemy!". Flamers suck IMO, so i would never use them, but that's not the point. The point is that if you didn't know, that tactic you are on about is called the 'Flaming Chosen' tactic, and you do it which chosen chaos space marines not havocs...

And i know that you can only have 4 spec. weapons in a squad, it's just that i have been playing nothing but apocalpse recently so i wasn't thinking about squad numbers. So, thank you for correcting me, but i think you'll find that in games of apocalypse these tactics will work just fine...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asger wrote:Agreeing with Norade.
Im gonna use them as 2 plasma guns, 2 meltaguns with 4 bodys (bolters) and IoN, then stick them into a rhino. Expensive, but god damn usefull squad.

I think you are going the wrong way about using havocs, but it's your choice. You all seem to use havocs for roles that chosen are meant for...havocs are HEAVY support which suprisingly means HEAVY weapons...

Tag your tactics with apocalypse next time if that's what they're meant for. Also, just because it's apocalypse doesn't mean more heavy weapons per team so your point is still slowed.

As well, the flame Chosen tactic is a good one, but you can also do it with Havocs for 3 points a model less. As well, please show the math hammer proving flamers suck, if you've actually done it that is... Actually I'll do the math for you.

Assuming 5 models covered and four flamer blast versus Space Marines. You will score 2 hits, wound ten times and kill 6.667 space marines, add in the melta as suggested and that rises to 7.222 dead SM. You assault, they strike with 6 attacks inflict half a wound, you hit them and deal 1 wound with chains words and kill another 1.25 leaving one left for you to kill in that player's turn before you move on. Of course that's just math hammer and we all know you could have a lot of different things happen between rolling along and having a dead squad.

That all being said, you're still better of taking Obliterators in any game. They offer you the most options, a, semi, mobile firing platform, deepstrike, multiple target options, synergy with Lash... So no matter what your option is going to end up worse and to be effective nearly as many points.

Norade wrote:Tag your tactics with apocalypse next time if that's what they're meant for. Also, just because it's apocalypse doesn't mean more heavy weapons per team so your point is still slowed.

As well, the flame Chosen tactic is a good one, but you can also do it with Havocs for 3 points a model less. As well, please show the math hammer proving flamers suck, if you've actually done it that is... Actually I'll do the math for you.

Assuming 5 models covered and four flamer blast versus Space Marines. You will score 2 hits, wound ten times and kill 6.667 space marines, add in the melta as suggested and that rises to 7.222 dead SM. You assault, they strike with 6 attacks inflict half a wound, you hit them and deal 1 wound with chains words and kill another 1.25 leaving one left for you to kill in that player's turn before you move on. Of course that's just math hammer and we all know you could have a lot of different things happen between rolling along and having a dead squad.

That all being said, you're still better of taking Obliterators in any game. They offer you the most options, a, semi, mobile firing platform, deepstrike, multiple target options, synergy with Lash... So no matter what your option is going to end up worse and to be effective nearly as many points.

You do it with chosen not havocs because for 3pts more you can actually get 5 flamers for 5 marines (not 4 flamers + c combi-flamer), and you get +1Ld but that's not important.

Here's the math hammer for, um, 4 havocs with autocannons, and 1 with bolter...

Since you're declaring the enemy as SM then fair enough. The havocs are stood 48" away from the SM, and fire 2 shots each. So that is 8 shots which hit on a 4+ so 4 shots hit. they wound on a 2+, so 5/6 of the shots cause a wound. half of them are saved which means 1,666 wounds are taken. Now the SM move forward 6" so they are 42" away from the havocs. basically they move 6" towards me each turn, and take 1.666 wounds each turn. After 4 turns they are in range to shoot me, but have taken 6.665 casualties. So assuming it is a tactical squad of 10, then only 3.335 survived. My havocs have taken no casualties...

Your tactic involves your havocs taking casualties, whereas mine does not. your havocs cost 120 points. my havocs cost 175 points... But i can guarantee that mine will stay alive twice as long as yours, but cause roughly the same casualties. If you want to do the maths, then that makes my havocs 137% more effective than yours...

And as for the obliterators, when did i say they were bad? can i just mention i don't even own any havocs, or obliterators for that matter, this is just a post about how to use havocs in the way my friend used them in a previous battle, which earned him a crushing victory...

I have used Havocs in their traditional role for a long time. I always get a surprised look from opponents that I have a heavy weapon squad (I do also have Obliterators). The squad I run is 10 CSM with 2 AC and 2 HB, they are great vs. infantry and can down a transport in a pinch. They have saved my home objective on many occasions either by gunning down approaching squads or (unbelievably) charging or counter-charging with BP/CCW (they are still CSM after all). I always give them IoCG, the re-roll has helped a few times and it's fluffy for my Black Legion army. Depending on the type of army you play, heavy weapon Havocs still have a place, they just are not a stand alone unit like most of the others in the Codex. 20 CSM and 10 Havocs have always given me the gun-line I am looking for in a few incarnations of my list.

BladeWalker wrote:I have used Havocs in their traditional role for a long time. I always get a surprised look from opponents that I have a heavy weapon squad (I do also have Obliterators). The squad I run is 10 CSM with 2 AC and 2 HB, they are great vs. infantry and can down a transport in a pinch. They have saved my home objective on many occasions either by gunning down approaching squads or (unbelievably) charging or counter-charging with BP/CCW (they are still CSM after all). I always give them IoCG, the re-roll has helped a few times and it's fluffy for my Black Legion army. Depending on the type of army you play, heavy weapon Havocs still have a place, they just are not a stand alone unit like most of the others in the Codex. 20 CSM and 10 Havocs have always given me the gun-line I am looking for in a few incarnations of my list.

This is the kind of tactics i agree with and am on about....

@OP: Careful with the way that you talk, you don't want to come across as overly combative. Check out the forum rules.

Now, on topic...
Stating that the tactic is for apocalypse is a good idea, especially if said tactic hinges on ignoring a units actual rules. Most people don't play that you can ignore rules out of the rulebook, so it's good to mention that.
Also, most people feel more comfortable with a tactics thread if the OP has used the models in a game, and has experience with them other than seeing an opponent use them (incorrectly no less) to win a game.
It's true that Chosen have advantages over havocs when it comes to carrying special weapons, but that's no reason to discount havocs. As stated, they are cheaper, and they take up a different Force Org slot than chosen. So, by going with Havocs for your special weapon needs, you can free up elites for those juicy termicides that everyone loves so much.

So, I guess the point is that there's no need to so completely ignore other people's points of view, especially when there is some validity to them. Try to at least listen to other arguments.

Orkestra wrote:@OP: Careful with the way that you talk, you don't want to come across as overly combative. Check out the forum rules.

Now, on topic...
Stating that the tactic is for apocalypse is a good idea, especially if said tactic hinges on ignoring a units actual rules. Most people don't play that you can ignore rules out of the rulebook, so it's good to mention that.
Also, most people feel more comfortable with a tactics thread if the OP has used the models in a game, and has experience with them other than seeing an opponent use them (incorrectly no less) to win a game.
It's true that Chosen have advantages over havocs when it comes to carrying special weapons, but that's no reason to discount havocs. As stated, they are cheaper, and they take up a different Force Org slot than chosen. So, by going with Havocs for your special weapon needs, you can free up elites for those juicy termicides that everyone loves so much.

So, I guess the point is that there's no need to so completely ignore other people's points of view, especially when there is some validity to them. Try to at least listen to other arguments.

I'm not ignoring them at all, but that doesn't mean i don't agree with them. At least you raise some good points anyway sir, kudos to you for kind-of settling this argument. But nonetheless i still think people should take tactics on-hand instead of simply arguing with them straight away, just because they have a different tactic. its fine by me if all of you like to give your havocs flamers, but please create your own topic and don't use it against others. i rest my case...

@Orkestra:
Wow, and all I wanted to write was 'troll'.
__________________

@Original Post:

Why I don’t use havocs:
*they don’t score, paying the same price for the same marine and not scoring.
*they are static, mobile fire power to get to side armor is ace.
*they eat up a hvy support choice.
*they lose a round of shooting in Dawn of War.
*loss of tank hunters vet skill.

Autocannons: lost their charm with the loss of Tank hunters.
Lascannons: over priced. 5 th ed diminished the usefulness of them tank hunting.
Missiles: are versatile, not great, not crap.
Hvy bolter: agreed.



Special weapons:
I think your rationale as to why specials are bad on havocs is not a good one.
Havocs at under 10 man with 4 specials can function in a rhino well enough.
Chosen can do it, but it’s a waste of their points and special rules if they don’t outflank.

The reason why havocs with specials are lacking is that the scoring troops can get similar weapons and still score.

Icons:
Icon of chaos glory, and really that’s it. No use it dumping more points on a squad not really designed for anything but ranged support.
If they attract any attention, so be it. They’ve done well enough and no need to expect them to need any advantages after that.

Icon of the Dust Buckets: No, just no. Set them up in cover, easy as pie.

If apoc is the only thing this ‘tactica’ , maybe you should also include that note in the title, no use in misleading people into something they may not be interested in knowing…

I'm not going to lie, Sanctjud, pretty much everything you just said is correct. But i don't know how to change the title, for one, and also i don't see what is such a problem with my tactics... if someone else posted a topic with something i didn't agree with, i wouldn't go crazy about it and start making calculations as to why they're wrong in my opinion. And that is it after all, opinion is opinion is opinion, so if people can't deal with my opinion, go and make a new topic about your own opinion.

so if people can't deal with my opinion, go and make a new topic about your own opinion.

So why post it here if you are not looking to discuss this topic with other people with or without differing opinions?

As to:

if someone else posted a topic with something i didn't agree with, i wouldn't go crazy about it and start making calculations as to why they're wrong in my opinion.

I generally post opposing the post to give an even view of the subject. Also it acts as a spring board to exchange ideas and keep the topic going by differing means.

/shrug.

Sanctjud wrote:

so if people can't deal with my opinion, go and make a new topic about your own opinion.

So why post it here if you are not looking to discuss this topic with other people with or without differing opinions?

As to:

if someone else posted a topic with something i didn't agree with, i wouldn't go crazy about it and start making calculations as to why they're wrong in my opinion.

I generally post opposing the post to give an even view of the subject. Also it acts as a spring board to exchange ideas and keep the topic going by differing means.

/shrug.

I give up. If i come across as sounding like i want to argue then i have failed in life. Will you please inform me as to how to delete this topic because people obviously don't respect what effort i put into this. Yes, i made some mistakes, yes, other people's opinions are valid and often very helpful, such as yours...i mean most of the stuff you say makes sense, but that doesn't mean that other tactics don't work either. anyway, that is all i have to say on this matter.

Just one thing about your first post, OP, where you discussed the effectiveness of Lascannons compared to Autocannons. You stated something like the following:

15 LC Havocs shoot SM: ~14 dead SM.
15 AC Havocs shoot SM (30 shots): ~25 dead SM.

Just for a little correction:

15 LC Havocs shoot SM: 15 times 2/3 to hit times 5/6 to wound, no armour: 8.33 dead SM.
15 AC Havocs shoot SM (30 shots): 30 times 2/3 to hit times 5/6 to wound times 1/3 to bypass armour: 5.56 dead SM.

I don't get how you get 15 LC shots = 14 dead marines. You would need 15 BS6 (!) shots and a re-roll to wound to get such a high rate of success. I don't know, you'd need something close to phoenix lords to shoot THAT effective.
So, as a result, lascannons are actually far better against SM on open field. If the SM are in cover, the AC gets a slight advantage.

Witzkatz wrote:Just one thing about your first post, OP, where you discussed the effectiveness of Lascannons compared to Autocannons. You stated something like the following:

15 LC Havocs shoot SM: ~14 dead SM.
15 AC Havocs shoot SM (30 shots): ~25 dead SM.

Just for a little correction:

15 LC Havocs shoot SM: 15 times 2/3 to hit times 5/6 to wound, no armour: 8.33 dead SM.
15 AC Havocs shoot SM (30 shots): 30 times 2/3 to hit times 5/6 to wound times 1/3 to bypass armour: 5.56 dead SM.

I don't get how you get 15 LC shots = 14 dead marines. You would need 15 BS6 (!) shots and a re-roll to wound to get such a high rate of success. I don't know, you'd need something close to phoenix lords to shoot THAT effective.
So, as a result, lascannons are actually far better against SM on open field. If the SM are in cover, the AC gets a slight advantage.

Yeah sorry your right, i obviously wasn't thinking straight. i have a banging headache you see 'cause i've had flu for the past week. Please excuse me.

KhorneOnTheCob wrote:

Norade wrote:Tag your tactics with apocalypse next time if that's what they're meant for. Also, just because it's apocalypse doesn't mean more heavy weapons per team so your point is still slowed.

As well, the flame Chosen tactic is a good one, but you can also do it with Havocs for 3 points a model less. As well, please show the math hammer proving flamers suck, if you've actually done it that is... Actually I'll do the math for you.

Assuming 5 models covered and four flamer blast versus Space Marines. You will score 2 hits, wound ten times and kill 6.667 space marines, add in the melta as suggested and that rises to 7.222 dead SM. You assault, they strike with 6 attacks inflict half a wound, you hit them and deal 1 wound with chains words and kill another 1.25 leaving one left for you to kill in that player's turn before you move on. Of course that's just math hammer and we all know you could have a lot of different things happen between rolling along and having a dead squad.

That all being said, you're still better of taking Obliterators in any game. They offer you the most options, a, semi, mobile firing platform, deepstrike, multiple target options, synergy with Lash... So no matter what your option is going to end up worse and to be effective nearly as many points.

You do it with chosen not havocs because for 3pts more you can actually get 5 flamers for 5 marines (not 4 flamers + c combi-flamer), and you get +1Ld but that's not important.

Here's the math hammer for, um, 4 havocs with autocannons, and 1 with bolter...

Since you're declaring the enemy as SM then fair enough. The havocs are stood 48" away from the SM, and fire 2 shots each. So that is 8 shots which hit on a 4+ so 4 shots hit. they wound on a 2+, so 5/6 of the shots cause a wound. half of them are saved which means 1,666 wounds are taken. Now the SM move forward 6" so they are 42" away from the havocs. basically they move 6" towards me each turn, and take 1.666 wounds each turn. After 4 turns they are in range to shoot me, but have taken 6.665 casualties. So assuming it is a tactical squad of 10, then only 3.335 survived. My havocs have taken no casualties...

Your tactic involves your havocs taking casualties, whereas mine does not. your havocs cost 120 points. my havocs cost 175 points... But i can guarantee that mine will stay alive twice as long as yours, but cause roughly the same casualties. If you want to do the maths, then that makes my havocs 137% more effective than yours...

And as for the obliterators, when did i say they were bad? can i just mention i don't even own any havocs, or obliterators for that matter, this is just a post about how to use havocs in the way my friend used them in a previous battle, which earned him a crushing victory...

Yup, never said that Auto-cannons weren't effective, but you said Flamers were bad and I showed otherwise. Besides unlike your method they can thin KFF Orks, interlaced guard, and other low armor creatures with great efficiency besides killing Space marines effectively. They can also kill tanks, and are mobile (Including drive by melta attacks) for the same cost as your force. Also they likely wouldn't have taken a loss if I'd included the bolter on the Rhino in my math.

In the end both of our forces spend at least a turn with no shots, but mine can contest/clear objectives late game while your forces need to babysit. My force has higher leadership so at minimum cost are less likely to run after taking two losses. Lastly, Chaos shouldn't be played as a gun line or they lose effectiveness and if you leave a unit alone it's easy enough to neutralize.

The only time Havok squads should be taken is if it's a minimal unit with cheap heavy weapons options. In most other scenarios Oblits do it better or cheaper.

Quite frankly OP, you're tactically wrong on a number of fronts. The first being max squads of Havoks; their weapon options aren't effective enough to justify 150 points' worth of non-scoring Marines.

Flamers are amazing weapons, and once in range kill far more models per shot than heavy weapons. Range is much less of a factor when you add in cover and mechanized armies.

The lascannon is garbage as primary AT and even worse versus troops (cover). It's an effective transport buster, but 12 lascannons across 30 non-scoring MEQs for 750 points is definitely not a gunline that's going to win you games regularly.

If Havoks were scoring, they'd be okay.

If Havoks were relentless, they'd be okay.

If they were Tank Hunters, they'd be okay.

If their weapons were cheaper, they'd be okay.

Since they're not any of those things, they're not worth having except in one very specific configuration.

depending on your meta you could run them with 4 melta and a combi melta, pop open tanks and charge the men inside. Chaos marines are one of the few armies that can do well in hand to hand with their tank busters.

You can't assault a force if you didn't shoot it so you can't pop a tank and kill the guys that spill out.

Norade wrote:You can't assault a force if you didn't shoot it so you can't pop a tank and kill the guys that spill out.

Actually you can. It's a note on Pg. 67 of the BRB.

I wasn't aware that the thread was for Apocalypse set ups, having never played Apoc my previous comments about my Havocs probably don't apply. I do find it useful that I can put my heavy weapons in the Havoc squad and keep the assault weapons in my CSM squads so they can remain mobile. Havocs can't score but they can contest quite well and when I use them with Obliterators as a fire base the Havocs can bail out the Obliterators that get outflank assaulted or otherwise tied down in assault unexpectedly. I probably only use Havocs because I like the models, on almost every occasion more Oblits would do the job better.

I think multiple assault weapons work much better with Chosen (unless of course your Elite spots are full).

So you can, I'm sure we've played it that way but I've been so busy I haven't played much recently.

@Bladewalker:

I think the line should be more like:

I think multiple assault weapons work much better with Chosen, who are outflanking in a rhino (unless of course your Elite spots are full).

If you are not outflanking, then you are better off with Havocs with specials in Rhinos...which in tern means you are better off with more troops.

Agreed. No reason to pay 3 pts per model more for Chosen unless you intend to outflank or infiltrate.

The Mathshammer about the flamers is confusing. If you do 10 wounds agains 3+ save marines, that is 3.33 marines dead, half as many as claimed.

I quite like Havocs, I have quite a few HW CSM which I tend to run in 2x 5 man squads, usually with 4 of the same HW in each squad. I will stick them in hard cover somewhere and draw the enemy into their sights.

Then I drop in some oblits behind their lines to take out anything that is left.

Though I have to say, I was not happy in the last game that I played where I had 2 plasma cannons kill themselves on gets hot rolls in the same turn (failed with double snake eyes as well... super dead).

Who had the plasma cannons?
Oblits have PC's / Havocs Don't.
Did the oblits already had 1 wound on each already, cause failing gets hot is a single wound, not death outright.

Ah, sorry, I meant a unit with plasma guns, not cannons. I had a havoc unit with LC's and a unit with plasma guns.