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This may have been covered previously, I looked but I didn't see anything.

Blood Claws would be worth while but for the inability to shoot their pistol within 6" and charge. Gray hunters are so much better. The ability to shoot then charge, plus use a bolter plus the extra BS and WS for equal points just flat out make them better.

Am I missing something here? Does anyone else see a use for them that I am not? Would the ability to have a 15 man unit be at all better? I see no reason to ever use them.

By giving them a leader, you bypass this hindrance.

They swing often enough to hit something, so I think they still earn their place. You just have to put a little bit of thought into how you're fielding them.

Look at it this way. Their WS isnt a detriment to them offensively - if they were facing off against MEQ theyre hitting on 4s anyway. It just makes those MEQs hit them easier in return. I think the majority of the time you wont even notice, and when you do you can back them up with some pretty sick characters.

Higher model count = stronger units (Higher morale test threshold and more swing per charge)

Greater no. of attacks.

Can make better use of force multipliers i.e A Wolf priest with these guys, more damage all-round.

Can fully fill-out a crusader, cheaper than you could with 8 bog-standard wolfguard termies.

Ah yes, I missed that, they can ignore headstrong when with a character, that mitigates it quite a bit.

But, WS3 means most enemy units hit them on 3's, which stinks a bit.

OK, I do see some uses for them. I still think Grey Hunters are better, but blood claws do have a place. Pack them in a crusader with a character and you have a nice assault unit.

They're also nice as a backstop unit, charging into established combats where they wouldn't be able to shoot anyway.

15 Claws in a crusader with a priest could compliment a drop-pod list (with 3 pods) quite nicely.

Furious charge, thats what about 4 attacks each on the charge, with 15 of them thy have what 60 attacks

Razerous wrote:15 Claws in a crusader with a priest could compliment a drop-pod list (with 3 pods) quite nicely.

This is tempting.
But I'd prefer GH's and try to keep the enemy at arm's length,
decimate him, and then charge.
BC's will not be needed for a reactive army.

I think that BCs on foot are inferior to GHs. They need a WG or IC to babysit them (to overcome Headstrong) and they need a Land Raider to have any sort of assault threat (units on foot have a 12-inch assault range, not very good).

I'm not sure about BCs on bikes or jumppacks. I think they're inferior to the Space Marine version of either (but are the same points). And, by RAW, you need an IC to babysit the BC jumppack troops (since you can't have a WG join them). Plus, they compete with Wolves on Wolves and landspeeders in the FA slot. Of the two, I think bikers are better, but I'm not sold on them either.

To bypass their lowered WS give them a Rune Preist, which allows you to gain Prefered Enemy on one enemy unit type say Ork Boyz, every unit of that type you can reroll your hits in CC, think that can make up for it, somewhat.

The issue with a lower WS is not typically the bonus to your 'to hit', it's the bonus of the other guy hitting you back. It means that against a WS 4 opponent, BCs and GHs have the same chance to deliver a hit, but BC's take 1/6 more hits in return (since they're hit on 3+ vs 4+).

15 BC
+ 1 WP
=17 wounds, 60 Attacks, reroll all misses and 5 killed before before a moral is required, wait sorry Fearless.
all for 325+ points

This thread is very timely... and spot on. I have been very actively scouring the space wolf codex. I do that for every new book. But as my good friend who literally only plays space wolves has asked me to make some competitive lists for him to play with, I've been looking in every nook and cranny.

I am NOT impressed with blood claws, sky claws and swift claws.

I'm going to use Razerous' handy list of 'pro's...

Razerous wrote:Higher model count = stronger units (Higher morale test threshold and more swing per charge)

Which would matter if you are not riding in a land raider. Or if your opponent managed to take your LR out really early in his own shooting phase. In those cases any number of models that fit in a LR would be in trouble.

Razerous wrote:Greater no. of attacks.

Only a greater number of strength 4 attacks that don't ignore armor. There isn't that big of a margin of output between 10 grey hunters with MoW and pfist than 15 blood claws with MoW and pfist. As an interesting anecdote. The competitive black templars players that I know have been changing their crusades from big blob to 5 man las/plas, and doing all of their CC work with sword bretheren. Quality of attack has been much more vital for CC armies than volume of low strength non-special attacks.

Razerous wrote:Can make better use of force multipliers i.e A Wolf priest with these guys, more damage all-round.

While true, it is a moot point. Both wolf guard and independent characters can be attached to grey hunters. The wolf priest will allow a few more re-rolls on the charge, but these are almost entirely the strength 4 generic attacks that I'm not very thrilled about.

Razerous wrote:Can fully fill-out a crusader, cheaper than you could with 8 bog-standard wolfguard termies.

It can fully fill out a crusader with an attached character, but that is really just an extention of your first point, unupgraded bodies don't deliver the way a well equipped marine does. 8 Bog standard termies might be more, but they have power weapons, WS4, and 2+/5++


Now my list of cons...

mandatory wolf guard or IC. Not literally mandatory, but an easy to manipulate must charge and can't shoot rule can completely take the unit out of the game. See empty drop pod tech.

WS3. Doesn't help offensively? You haven't played against my 40 man infantry platoon with commissar. And as far as defensive WS is concerned. There are quite a few assault specialists with weapon skill 4. If you bought this unit, you bought it to fight. Who are you going to fight with a single attack power fist and WS3?

BS3. Ok, its a cc unit. It might have lost its ability to be a respected CC unit when it lost 66% of its power fists. It depends on your opponents army composition of course, but my ork opponents who play horde don't just leave 30 boys in charge range of blood claws, even ones in land raiders. Foot boys are behind killa kans, which you can't tank shock through, and your blood claws can't beat in CC.



having said all that. I've had the codex for 3 days. I am not swearing them off, it is possible that they are the correct troop choice to ride in a LRC. But I think if I had a LRC i'd want a CC unit in there that was an assault specialist. Not a troop choice that can beat other troop choices in assault. MoW grey hunters do that, AND have 2 special weapons.

Sky claws are just assault marines that are a fraction less bad (non-scoring assault only unit that can't beat assault specialist units) and swift claws are everything that is bad about space marine bikes with none of the good things (attack bikes, BS4 plasma and melta, combat tactics)


To answer the OP question directly... No reason until january. After January, blood claws might be the right call in a tyranid heavy field in an effort to cut through gaunt screens. But then again, with that weapon skill 3, they are losing 16% of their hits to gain 1 extra attack once per combat. To put that extra attack into perspective, if the combat goes 3 rounds (one and a half turns) then the extra attack only accounts for 6.5% more hits in total. If you don't just immediately blow them out on the charge and the combat goes 2 rounds (one full turn) then it only grants you 8% more hits. Against WS3 tarpits, grey hunters actually put out better than the 'buzzsaw' claws. Against WS4, the blood claws put out more, but also take 16% more casualties in return.

I'm not nearly the player that Shep is, but I had similar thoughts. I don't see where BCs on foot are better than GHs.

If I'm taking a LRC stuffed with combat troops, 10 GHs with 2 special weapons, MotW, and a Totem + WG leader with something killy (maybe even Arjac) + IC (maybe with a pet wolf or two) fit in the LRC as well. I'd have to run the numbers, but that seems at least as killy for the points as BCs with an IC.

Blood Claws used to be the best troop choice point for point in the Space Wolf Dex. Now they aren't. I think they did the right thing and made them a niche unit and made GHs the main choice. Much like scouts in a regular list have a niche but tacticals are the mainstay.

Shep has a good breakdown. Not much to add other then perhaps there's some value in taking them to take lukas. I don't think he is worth it but maybe someone can see some value in him. I suppose in apocalypse he could be nasty as a suicide bomber but a regular tournament list isn't going to get alot of value out of him. If he got rid of must charge/can't shoot on a blood claw unit he might have been of some value.

That pretty much summarizes the thoughts I was having as well. Grey Hunters are a solid troops choice.

My only question now, is if the fist is worth it for grey hunters. I normally say fist all day, but with only 1 attack, that is not a lot of go power. The power weapon with melta bombs may be the better option, just stay away from WL's.

Reecius wrote:That pretty much summarizes the thoughts I was having as well. Grey Hunters are a solid troops choice.

My only question now, is if the fist is worth it for grey hunters. I normally say fist all day, but with only 1 attack, that is not a lot of go power. The power weapon with melta bombs may be the better option, just stay away from WL's.

I think they do just fine with just the MoW upgrade. Like you said 25 points for one PF attack doesn't ensure that you ever get out of the trap you got yourself in, and as an offensive tool, charging moving vehicles is generally suicide. Gets your grey hunters all nuts to butts for souffles and pies.

True gear and a wulfen in the unit let them beat most other troops choices in CC. Stay away from walkers and MCs, don't charge fast moving vehicles, and you can save yourself 25 points

Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Toss in a M bomb in there for insurance and you are good to go. I was thinking a flamer, melta and a mbomb plus MoW in each squad plus a rhino and you have a solid, cheap, mobile scoring unit.

My only question now, is if the fist is worth it for grey hunters. I normally say fist all day, but with only 1 attack, that is not a lot of go power. The power weapon with melta bombs may be the better option, just stay away from WL's.

Melta Bomb is only available via a Wolf Guard, and then you could get a 2 base attack fist guy.

The Mark of the Wulfen is a value buy, multi purpose option. You get more damage results against vehicles with a fist but they are otherwise pretty even versus MCs or MEqs and the mark is better against lesser models. I think point for point and situation to situation the return of investment favors MotW. Could go with both also, good chunk of points but a nice bit of damage potential.

I agree, but to get 10 men for the free special in a rhino, you have to forgo the WG.

I think it will be MoW every time.

I was looking at the dex last night, and I realized that BC Bikers come with bp & ccw. So, they actually get a boost over their SM comparison (since otherwise, it seems thats -1 WS, BS, Headstrong are meant to 'balance' out Berserk Charge). I'm not saying it makes Bikers OMG, but it's something to think about. The problem is that you still need an IC or a WG to babysit the unit. But, I'm willing to try out something like:

7 Swiftclaws, 1 flamer
WG on bike, powerfist and combi-flamer

I took 14 Blood Claws with a Wolf Priest against Daemons on the weekend, and they did nothing for most of the game except spread out over a large open area daring an enemy unit to drop down nearby.
Finally a unit of six fiends charged them, and were cut to pieces (the fiends).

Against Infantry they're even better, but not as great for the points as Grey Hunters.

Let’s look at 15 Blood Claws [No Upgrades] & 30 Ork Boys [No Upgrades] {I am using Orks because that was the 1st one I pulled off the shelf}

15 Blood Claws [225 points]

30 Ork Boys [180 points]

The Blood Claws need a 4+ to hit the Orks
The Orks need a 3+ to hit the Blood Claws

Orks Go First

-Orc Turn
Blood Claws: 15
Ork Boys: 30

The Orks Charge
The 15 Blood Claws Counter Attack and go 1st with 45 attacks of which 22 should hit, wounding killing 11 Ork Boys
The 19 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 57 Attack that should hit with 38, wounding 19 of which 6 should fail leaving 9 Blood Claws.

The Space Wolves loose the Close Combat and fall back

-Space Wolves Turn
Blood Claws: 9
Ork Boys: 19

The Blood Claws Regroup and charge the Orks
The 9 Blood Claws go 1st and get 36 Attacks, hitting with 18, wounding and killing 9 hit killing 9 Orks
The 9 Orks get 18 attacks hitting with 12, wounding 6, and killing 2 leaving 7 Blood Claws

The Space Wolves loose the Close Combat and fall back

-Ork Turn
Blood Claws: 7
Ork Boys: 9

The Orks Charge
The 7 Blood Claws Counter Attack and go 1st with 21 attacks of which 10 should hit, wounding killing 5 Ork Boys
The 4 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 12 Attack that should hit with 8, wounding 4 of which 1 should fail leaving 8 Blood Claws.

The Orks win again and the Blood claws fall back

-Space Wolves Turn
Blood Claws: 8
Ork Boys: 5

The Blood Claws Regroup and charge the Orks
The 8 Blood Claws go 1st and get 32 Attacks, hitting with 16, wounding and killing 8 hit killing the 5 Orks and consolidate


Space Wolves Go First
Blood Claws: 15
Ork Boys: 30


Blood Claws Go 1st
-The Blood Claws Charge
The 15 Blood Claws get 60 attacks of which 30 should hit, wounding killing 15 Ork Boys
The 15 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 30 Attack that should hit with 20, wounding 10 of which 3 should fail leaving 12 Blood Claws.

Blood Claws Loose and Fall Back

-Ork Turn
Blood Claws: 12
Ork Boys: 15

The Orks charge
The 12 Blood Claws Counter Attack and go 1st with 36 attacks of which 18 should hit, wounding killing 9 Ork Boys
The 9 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 27 Attack that should hit with 18, wounding 9 of which 3 should fail leaving 9 Blood Claws.

Space Wolf Turn
Blood Claws: 9
Ork Boys: 9

The Blood Claws Charge
The 9 Blood Claws get 36 attacks of which 18 should hit, wounding killing 9 Ork Boys and consolidate


Blood Claws: 9
Ork Boys: 0

I know this is not a scientific way of looking at it and the points are not the same, but I do not recall any time two even point units engage each other.

Anpu42 wrote:Blood Claws: 15
Ork Boys: 30

The Orks Charge
The 15 Blood Claws Counter Attack and go 1st with 45 attacks of which 22 should hit, wounding killing 11 Ork Boys
The 19 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 57 Attack that should hit with 38, wounding 19 of which 6 should fail leaving 9 Blood Claws.

The Space Wolves loose the Close Combat and fall back

Why do you keep having the BC fall back? They killed 11, orks killed 6. Shouldn't it be 'Orks lose, make their mob check or whatever and stick?' Or are you intentionally falling back, because that's codex marines.

Blood claws are similar to zerkers in the same way hunters are similar to plague marines.

The one is a well rounded do anything unit, the other is a hand to hand wrecking machine. I would always advocate a unit of zerkers/blood claws just to clear out hordes and what not.

pretre wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:Blood Claws: 15
Ork Boys: 30

The Orks Charge
The 15 Blood Claws Counter Attack and go 1st with 45 attacks of which 22 should hit, wounding killing 11 Ork Boys
The 19 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 57 Attack that should hit with 38, wounding 19 of which 6 should fail leaving 9 Blood Claws.

The Space Wolves loose the Close Combat and fall back

Why do you keep having the BC fall back? They killed 11, orks killed 6. Shouldn't it be 'Orks lose, make their mob check or whatever and stick?' Or are you intentionally falling back, because that's codex marines.

They took the most woulds and without USR Stubborn they will most likely fail there Moral Check

Anpu42 wrote:The Orks Charge
The 15 Blood Claws Counter Attack and go 1st with 45 attacks of which 22 should hit, wounding killing 11 Ork Boys
The 19 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 57 Attack that should hit with 38, wounding 19 of which 6 should fail leaving 9 Blood Claws.

The Space Wolves loose the Close Combat and fall back

1. You're assuming that BCs pass their Leadership test for the bonus attack on the counterattack. They will, but only about 72% of the time.
2. You ignored the armor saves for the Orks. Which, isn't much, but out of 11 wounds, they'll save a couple. So, 9 orks drop. But, doesn't matter, the BC's should still win the melee. Which will force a couple more wounds onto the Ork mob.

Space Wolves Go First
Blood Claws: 15
Ork Boys: 30

Blood Claws Go 1st
-The Blood Claws Charge
The 15 Blood Claws get 60 attacks of which 30 should hit, wounding killing 15 Ork Boys
The 15 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 30 Attack that should hit with 20, wounding 10 of which 3 should fail leaving 12 Blood Claws.

Blood Claws Loose and Fall Back

1. A couple Orks should make their saves. Say they kill 13 orks.
2. Without the charge, Orks need 5+ to wound the BCs. Which means that 17 orks get 34 attacks (assuming they are shoota boyz and not slugga boyz), 23 hits, and 8 wounds. About 3 BCs should die.
3. BCs win the combat by about 10, forcing another 10 wounds onto the Fearless ork mob.

Anyway, BCs go great against horde armies with Initatives less than 4. They don't do nearly as good against MEQs though, because they're not going to thin out that many MEQs, and the ones that they do kill, still get to strike back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:They took the most woulds and without USR Stubborn they will most likely fail there Moral Check

You determine the number of Wounds for combat resolution after making armor saves, not before.

dietrich wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:The Orks Charge
The 15 Blood Claws Counter Attack and go 1st with 45 attacks of which 22 should hit, wounding killing 11 Ork Boys
The 19 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 57 Attack that should hit with 38, wounding 19 of which 6 should fail leaving 9 Blood Claws.

The Space Wolves loose the Close Combat and fall back

1. You're assuming that BCs pass their Leadership test for the bonus attack on the counterattack. They will, but only about 72% of the time.
2. You ignored the armor saves for the Orks. Which, isn't much, but out of 11 wounds, they'll save a couple. So, 9 orks drop. But, doesn't matter, the BC's should still win the melee. Which will force a couple more wounds onto the Ork mob.

Space Wolves Go First
Blood Claws: 15
Ork Boys: 30

Blood Claws Go 1st
-The Blood Claws Charge
The 15 Blood Claws get 60 attacks of which 30 should hit, wounding killing 15 Ork Boys
The 15 Orks attack the Blood Claws, and get 30 Attack that should hit with 20, wounding 10 of which 3 should fail leaving 12 Blood Claws.

Blood Claws Loose and Fall Back

1. A couple Orks should make their saves. Say they kill 13 orks.
2. Without the charge, Orks need 5+ to wound the BCs. Which means that 17 orks get 34 attacks (assuming they are shoota boyz and not slugga boyz), 23 hits, and 8 wounds. About 3 BCs should die.
3. BCs win the combat by about 10, forcing another 10 wounds onto the Fearless ork mob.

Anyway, BCs go great against horde armies with Initatives less than 4. They don't do nearly as good against MEQs though, because they're not going to thin out that many MEQs, and the ones that they do kill, still get to strike back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anpu42 wrote:They took the most woulds and without USR Stubborn they will most likely fail there Moral Check

You determine the number of Wounds for combat resolution after making armor saves, not before.

Sorry I keep thinking "Bolt Pistol AP-5 vs Save 6+" my mistake I do that all the time, it come from my old 1st & 2nd ed days.

But the point was was trying to make was I think Blood Claws have there place.
I will probaly go with 50/50 Grey Hunter/Blood Claw packs

The lack of MotW, headstrong, lack of boltgun's and a 15-cap needed to get that second special weapon - All this kills the blood claws for me.

The Grey Hunters are superious, in every way, really. MotW alone costs another 15pt model (so 3-4 attacks) yet it yields you 2-8 And its rending. You will get a few more attacks in, but the ability to move into 12" of the enemy (Hey hey counter-charge), rapid fire with BS4 boltguns and then swing your str4 I4 attacks with the full compliment, The job's done right there.

The force-multiplication is perhaps greater with blood claws, due to the higher model count & No. of attacks but stand-alone or even only mildly supported, Grey hunters win, paws down.

(I was play devils advocate before. I do -heart- Grey hunters)