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The only time that I can BCs significantly outplaying GHs is:

15, with 2 flamers and a powerweapon, lead by a WP, jumping out of a LRC and getting being within 6 inches of Ragnar for the once a game Furious Charge. Then, they'd be pretty hideous.

But, that's a huge investment.

As a side note, in the fluff, Ragnar is often leading around BC packs. Yet, in the rules, that is probably the worst unit to put him with. Insane Bravado does so much more for GH or WG.

dietrich wrote:The only time that I can BCs significantly outplaying GHs is:

15, with 2 flamers and a powerweapon, lead by a WP, jumping out of a LRC and getting being within 6 inches of Ragnar for the once a game Furious Charge. Then, they'd be pretty hideous.

But, that's a huge investment.

As a side note, in the fluff, Ragnar is often leading around BC packs. Yet, in the rules, that is probably the worst unit to put him with. Insane Bravado does so much more for GH or WG.

Yes Ragnar gives you a 1 in three of destroying the Berserk charge, but a 1 in 3 of an extra attack, just think of that with MotW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was thinking this combo as a Horde Hunter

-Wolf Guard Battle Leader [Plasma Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Wolf Tail Talisman, Woolf Tooth Necklace, 2 Wolves, Mark of the Wolfen, Saga of the Warrior Born]
-Wolf Guard [Plasma Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Mark of the Wolfen]
-Blood Claws
1x Blood Claw Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Power Sword]
2x Blood Claws [Flamer, CCW]
1x Blood Claws [Plasma Pistol, CCW]
1x Blood Claw [Bolt Pistol, CCW Mark of the Wolfen]
10x Blood Claws [Bolt Pistol, CCW]

This thread reminds me of everyone explaining why noise marines were a trillion times better than Berserkers. Surreal.

I don't know, this seems more clear cut than the Zerker vs. NM issue.

Though I still like the max size of the BC, just for the mob squad look.

Blood Claws are a disappointment in the new codex.

Wolf Guard actually make better Blood Claws (with Logan in the army) -- 3 points per model more, but +1A (same number of attacks on the charge, one extra attack any other time), +1WS +1BS +1Ld and no Headstrong. And not only can they take as many special weapons as you want, but they're cheaper -- a Wolf Guard with a Power Fist is actually cheaper than a Blood Claw with a Power Fist.

Existing SW players, repeat after me: "No, my Wolf Guard uses a red paw print as their squad logo."

Really, though, to me the biggest disappointment in the codex was Skyclaws -- sure they're vastly better than they used to be, but at the same cost as vanilla assault marines, they're inferior.

40Kenthusiast, do you see a use for BC's that puts them on par to or superior than GH's?

I don't, but I could be missing something.

And as Sactjud said, I think this is a little more clear cut as well. Noise Marines and Zerkers are both really good, but they perform different functions. GH's do what blood claws do and they shoot much better for less points.

40kenthusiast wrote:This thread reminds me of everyone explaining why noise marines were a trillion times better than Berserkers. Surreal.

BIG difference...

WS5 furious charging 2 attack base models with access to a 2 attack (or is it 3 attack?) BASE power fist.

Berserkers are one of the only troops choices that can beat certain assault specialists on a good day. Better than grey knights and genestealers in assault makes them the premier dedicated CC troop in warhammer. All this and competitive chaos armies are still just as likely to take a unit of noise marines as a unit of berserkers. Thats more of a fault of the one dimensionality of the codex than anything else though.

You know what blood claws seem like to me? Worse than a black templar crusade. Average more points per model than the crusade. Majority weapon skill is lower, they need to be joined by a wolf priest to get preferred enemy, and they have to pick a unit type for their preferred enemy. They don't have a LRC as a troop choice. They don't run forward when they pass leadership tests. They are headstrong... All this for a few more suits of power armor, counter attack and one more attack on the charge.

I haven't had the codex long enough to make any proclamations about their ultimate usefulness... but as many of us have pointed out, I think Phil forgot to write a 13 or 12 next to their points cost.

This thread reminds me of everyone explaining why noise marines were a trillion times better than Berserkers. Surreal.

Yeah I would love to hear your analysis on the subject also, because I don't think that GH vs BC is analogous at all with NM vs Bezerkers.

Bezerkers have several stats that make them better then NM in assault (charge or no) and tie NM in initiative on the charge. Blood Claws have a single stat that is better then Grey Hunters and that is only if they charge (and really due to headstrong only if they have a leader to allow them to shoot are they better then GH on the charge). And that WS3 is a big issue in an ongoing combat, whether it is WS4 getting more hits on them or not hitting the cheap WS3 as often.

40kenthusiast wrote:This thread reminds me of everyone explaining why noise marines were a trillion times better than Berserkers. Surreal.

Yea really, looks like several other people already beat me too it, but GH vs BC is nothing like Noise Marines vs Berzerkers. As Shep mentioned, the narrow focus of the Chaos dex means that the choice can ultimately be a wash depending on what army you're playing, where as Blood Claws are clearly worse then Grey Hunters in just about every area. The decreased WS/BS makes them too much a liability.

I would also like to point out that the OP left out the fact that the ork boys will be accompanied by a PK nob, which will significantly change the number of BCs killed each turn, while none of the upgrades the BCs can take actually allow them to kill significantly more orks.

Although I supposed the counter point is that adding a WG or other leader to the BCs lets them shoot then charge, and if they have flamers they can put a nice dent in the boyz before they even start swinging.

Still I think the math hammer in this thread fails to represent a likely real-world scenario.

I'm thinking that BC bikers have a place in a list (and I already have a unit), but I don't see BC on foot making it into the list.

The other problem with BCs on foot - you can't assault out of a rhino. GHs can roll up in their rhino, rapid fire, and then hope they pass their leadership test if assaulted. BCs have to get their rhino within 6 inches of the target on one turn, hope the target stands still, and then get out and assault on the following turn. Unless you drop another 250+ points on a LR or variant.

@dietrich:

I havn't seen Chaos and Eldar complain about assaulting out of a transport.
It's really not hard, the roles just change.

Assaulting out of a transport is more for a counter-charge role...(funny name/role right?).

Assaulting out of a rhino gets you essentially a 15" charge range, as opposed to the normal 12" charge on foot.

It's sad that they can't charge out of it, but everyone has to deal with this, so I wouldn't use it as a 'reason' BC are not good.
More likely the balanced answer would be: they are different.

BCs aren't bad, but I don't think they're as good as GHs, especially at the same point cost. If BCs were 12 points, I'd fit a unit in. If BCs were WS 4, didn't have Headstrong, and/or had Furiuos Charge instead of Berserk Charge, I'd fit a unit or two into my army. But, since they're both troops, and the same point cost, it just seems to me that GH>BC.

@dietrich:
I'm not disagreeing with you on GH > BC.
Just saying the Rhino issue is not a strong reason for or against the GH > BC matter.

In the old codex it was the 14 pt cost and the ease of getting 2-3 PF in the unit that made BCs good. Now they are more expensive and have fewer pw.

While the bikers and skyclaws have their uses, the packs really only work when an enemy is already stuck on a GH anvil and ripe for the BCs to attack on your turn. I would at most take one unit for every two GH packs, but GH packs really are better all rounders with the new rules, especially now that they get +1 A on the assault.

I'm afraid I may rework the weapon combos on my current BC packs. Bolters for everyone!

There are a lot of reasons being given for the GH that are pure calvinball. Let's run down the list.

-Headstrong: Ok, this rule is on par with the Ksons moving only 1d6 after their sarge dies. It's irrelevant. You'll never see a unit of Blood Claws deployed without a Wolf Guard, because he's got the second powerfist and combi melta. He's also ld 9. He's like their vet sarge. Both Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will always have one of these guys, if the SW player can read a codex.

(Going to take a sec to handle the inevitable "he'll die" comments. He'll die only after he's had a wound allocated to him. That means either you are facing Telion/An Assassin and he's giving free passes to your characters, or your unit is taking so many hits you have to give him one. if its taking that many hits its likely being assaulted, so its dead, and it doesn't matter that they are headstrong.)

-Two Special weapons: The Grey Hunters don't get this either. If they have 2 special weapons they are an 11 man squad, so they don't fit in a Rhino/Drop pod, or they don't have their Wolf Guard w/Pfist & combi melta. This is 5th edition, nobody does static squads anymore.

-bs 3: This is a legit grief, but not really a big deal. The only times you shoot tac marines you want to fight with are: A, out the rhino's window with the meltas, in which case you have one less bs on one of the 2 melta gun shots, or pre-charging, in which case the Blood Claws just do more of the work in the combat, where their combat res can count.

People are talking about driving up, hopping out and rapid firing. Who does that? You get assaulted and wrecked. Are there large footslogging harlequin units I'm not aware of somewhere out there? Marines stay in the rhino till it's time to fight. Whoever gets out first gets lashed/gets charged/gets hit by Tzeentch flamers/gets pie plated by Russes. Stay in your rhinos till you charge or get knocked out is part of the 5th edition bible.

-ws 3: This one really has me confused. Are there a lot of ws 7 units that are getting charged by marine units? The Space Wolves have a host of characters perfectly ready to wreck DP's. We don't need to send in the objective holders! When the Blood Claws charge the fact that the enemy's get one or two more hits isn't that big of a deal, they have 9 more attacks coming in. In general, you don't charge things that might beat you.

In 5th edition, the charge is all important. You get it and you crush the enemy. Very few charges get rebuffed. I don't know what kind of unit we are imagining charging our rhino squad that ws 4 saves them from. Where I play, here are some of the things that charge you, looking around our tables in no particular order:

-Bloodcrushers
-Genestealers/TMC's
-Blood Angels w/Dante & Corbulo nearby
-Berserkers after you've been lashed into the only 3 guys fight back formation
- Killa Kans (and/or huge Ork mobs)

What I'm getting at is that folks only bring assault units that can crush marine squads. In 5th edition the defender doesn't really fight back, they get run over. MEQ's in Rhinos aren't novel, we've all learned how to handle them. If a list can't crush ten SM's on it's turn it isn't a competitive list anyway.

-Logan Grimnar makes Wolf Guard better than Blood Claws as troops: I concur. He also makes them better than Grey Hunters. I'd say a Logan list shouldn't have any non Wolf guard troops. You bought Logan so that, presumably, you could field Wolf Guard troops. You payed well for the right, embrace it!

So now I've explained why I'm unconvinced by the arguments presented thus far, this is how I see the argument:

9 Grey Hunters w/Rhino + 1 Melta gun + 1 Power fist + 1 Wolf Guard w/Combi Melta & Power Fist + 1 Wolf standard + 1 Mark of the Wulfren

Vs.

9 Blood Claws w/Rhino + 1 Melta gun + 1 Power fist + 1 Wolf Guard w/Combi Melta & Power Fist

Grey Hunters are slightly more expensive.

Mark of the Wulfen + Wolf Standard versus the extra 9 attacks. I tend to come down on the Blood Claws side, but can see the wisdom of the alternative, particularly as it relates to wound allocation.

That's the debate to be having, and my gut is that it isn't a distinction that will matter in 90% of games. The result will be what it will be because someone made his smoke save or didn't, someone's assault failed its terrain test or didn't, not that I used Blood Claws and you used Grey Hunters.

As far as the BCs go, I'm surprised how down on them every one is. I think it's absolutely true that GHs are an overall better choice, but the BCs have two key factors in their favor:

OMG LERN 2 PALY: There's a tendency in these forums to favor units that are trickier to use, but have an upside. This seems to describe BCs. They need shepherding, they need to get the assault, but if they do, they're getting 1 more Attack than GHs, and thus are more effective.

Simple MathHammer vs MEq, comparing the two models shooting once with pistol, then assaulting:

BC: 1 BS3 shot, .5 hit, .25 wound, .083 dead; 4 WS3 Attacks, 2 hit, 1 wound, .33 dead = .416
GH: 1 BS3 shot, .667 hit, .333 wound, .111 dead; 3 WS4 Attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 wound, .25 dead = .361

So, in this respect the BCs are about 15% better.

Also, if you take a Fist or Power Weapon (which I'm not sure on yet), this will be even more pronounced in favor of the BCs.

But, noting that they're 15% better, note also that they're 33% easier for WS4 to hit, so it's not the best tradeoff.

Crusaders: Being able to take 15 man squads is both a curse (GHs get their free weapon at 10), and a blessing. Nothing else is going to fill up a Crusader quite as nicely, and this delivery mechanism also really plays to the strengths of the BCs.

All of this has been said, more or less, but it bears summarizing.

The only issue outstanding is to look over all the other models, and confirm that there's nothing that synergizes particularly well with them. The Wolf Priest's Preferred Enemy rule is an obvious one.

I think point for point and situation to situation the return of investment favors MotW.

When I first looked at MotW I thought it was a no brainer for all GH squads.

If you look at the actual numbers, though, it's really a wash, and IMO not worth taking.

At 15 points, it's either MotW or another GH, so basically you're comparing one GH with MotW vs. 2 GH.

MotW: 4.5A on average, 5.5A on the charge. Plus Rending.
2 GH: 4A on average, 6A on the charge.

Considering that you're always getting that charge bonus with Counter-Attack, you're basically losing half an attack and getting Rending for the cost of one body. In subsequent rounds, the MotW model will attack more, but I don't imagine this squad will be in CC for too many rounds.

My tendency is to always err on the side of more bodies, and predictability, so no MotW.

Still, MotW lets you put more punch into one ten man squad, basically making it an 11 man squad that fits in a Rhino. I don't think you go wrong taking it, especially since you don't have to pass anything up to do it, but it's really not a value add in Attacks, but instead in Rending.


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Both Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will always have one of these guys, if the SW player can read a codex.

I reached a similar conclusion. An interesting point with Wolf Guard, is that you can buy the full ten Wolf Guards, use 5 of them to join squads, and then you can take a 5 man squad in Terminator armor with 2x heavy weapons. If you want to harken back to the good old days, at least.

Phryxis wrote:OMG LERN 2 PALY: There's a tendency in these forums to favor units that are trickier to use, but have an upside. This seems to describe BCs. They need shepherding, they need to get the assault, but if they do, they're getting 1 more Attack than GHs, and thus are more effective.

One of the core problems with BCs, is that they're only more effective on the charge than GHs if they're fighting something WS 2 or 4-6. And if that target is WS 4 (which, let's face it, it most likely will be), the BCs are less resilient than GHs when they get that extra effectiveness.

Even when they get the shot before charging (and I agree that Headstrong amounts to "can't shoot before charging if their sergeant dies to a torrent of fire" in real-world gameplay), at BS3, it's still less effective. You also forgot to add in the melta shot -- the extra BS point on it alone negates the extra charge damage of two BCs, and if you don't take a melta on the BC squad, charging MEQs is a wash.

Assuming similar layouts for a Rhino-capable unit, keeping costs similar, I'm figuring:

9x GH, meltagun, WG w PF
9x BC, meltagun, WG w PF

(For the moment ignoring the 10x GH 2x meltagun configuration, as whether to take it instead of the above is another question entirely; the above has exactly the same cost)

Charging them both against MEQs, and converting to x/36 as it's the lowest common denominator...

BC:

8x BS3 Bolt Pistol shot: 8 shots * 1/2 hit * 1/2 wound * 1/3 kill = 24/36
1x BS4 Bolt Pistol shot: 1 shots * 2/3 hit * 1/2 wound * 1/3 kill = 4/36
1x BS3 Meltagun shot: 1 shot * 1/2 hit * 5/6 wound * 1 kill = 15/36
35x* WS3 close combat attacks: 35 swings * 1/2 hit * 1/2 wound * 1/3 kill = 105/36
3x WS4 Power fist attacks: 3 swings * 1/2 hit * 5/6 wound * 1 kill = 45/36

Total: 193/36 MEQ kills ~ 5.36
GH:

9x BS4 Bolt Pistol shot: 9 shots * 2/3 hit * 1/2 wound * 1/3 kill = 36/36
1x BS4 Meltagun shot: 1 shot * 2/3 hit * 5/6 wound * 1 kill = 20/36
26x* WS4 close combat attacks: 26 swings * 1/2 hit * 1/2 wound * 1/3 kill = 78/36
3x WS4 Power fist attacks: 3 swings * 1/2 hit * 5/6 wound * 1 kill = 45/36

Total: 179/36 MEQ kills ~ 4.97

* Note that the fellow with the meltagun in both squads loses his bolt pistol, so only gets 3 attacks for the BC or 2 for the GH squad.


All said and done, an 8% advantage to the BCs. In the situation that they "shine" -- getting the charge, and only against something not WS3 or WS7-8. And then they're going to be a lot more than 8% less resilient in that same assault due to WS3 against WS4.

Now, that said, I'll reiterate that they're a "disappointment". I wouldn't say they "suck", but I would say that their actual advantage over GH in their primary role, and in a situation tailored for them is so minuscule that there's no real reason to take them in a competitive list. It is, however, more because Grey Hunters are very good than Blood Claws are very bad. They're not a bad troop choice by any stretch, they just don't do their "job" well enough compared to GHs doing the same job to warrant inclusion in a competitive list.

(And, as I said before, if you want close combat marines in power armor on foot, take Logan, and use your existing Blood Claws as Counts-As Wolf Guard squads)

40kenthusiast wrote:-Headstrong: Ok, this rule is on par with the Ksons moving only 1d6 after their sarge dies. It's irrelevant. You'll never see a unit of Blood Claws deployed without a Wolf Guard, because he's got the second powerfist and combi melta. He's also ld 9. He's like their vet sarge. Both Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will always have one of these guys, if the SW player can read a codex.

False. The grey Hunters that everyone has been running in my neck of the woods are 10x GH, 2x meltaguns and mark of the wulfen. I can read a codex... and that is the most efficient build in my mind.

40kenthusiast wrote:-Two Special weapons: The Grey Hunters don't get this either. If they have 2 special weapons they are an 11 man squad, so they don't fit in a Rhino/Drop pod, or they don't have their Wolf Guard w/Pfist & combi melta. This is 5th edition, nobody does static squads anymore.

Your basing this on your false premise. I DO have 2 BS4 special weapons in my grey hunter unit.

40kenthusiast wrote:-bs 3: This is a legit grief, but not really a big deal. The only times you shoot tac marines you want to fight with are: A, out the rhino's window with the meltas, in which case you have one less bs on one of the 2 melta gun shots, or pre-charging, in which case the Blood Claws just do more of the work in the combat, where their combat res can count.

Really? What do you do on the turn you get out of a drop pod? Run? Funny how you mentioned combat resolution. Winning combat is not just about putting wounds on to people, its about not taking wounds in return. That creates a margin of victory that makes non fearless troops more likely to fall back and puts MORE wounds on fearless troops. As has been discussed, WS3 decreases your margin.

40kenthusiast wrote:People are talking about driving up, hopping out and rapid firing. Who does that? You get assaulted and wrecked. Are there large footslogging harlequin units I'm not aware of somewhere out there? Marines stay in the rhino till it's time to fight. Whoever gets out first gets lashed/gets charged/gets hit by Tzeentch flamers/gets pie plated by Russes. Stay in your rhinos till you charge or get knocked out is part of the 5th edition bible.

What is with this rhino? Most space wolf army lists in this forum and that I have written are either drop pod based or they are foot/cavalry based.

40kenthusiast wrote:-ws 3: This one really has me confused. Are there a lot of ws 7 units that are getting charged by marine units? The Space Wolves have a host of characters perfectly ready to wreck DP's. We don't need to send in the objective holders! When the Blood Claws charge the fact that the enemy's get one or two more hits isn't that big of a deal, they have 9 more attacks coming in. In general, you don't charge things that might beat you.

Posters have already pointed out why WS3 is a detriment. To have a dedicated close combat unit that sucks at doing anything else, and then placing restrictions on what units you will allow it to charge seems ridiculous. How many games are the blood claws going to be a dead unit?

40kenthusiast wrote: In 5th edition, the charge is all important. You get it and you crush the enemy. Very few charges get rebuffed. I don't know what kind of unit we are imagining charging our rhino squad that ws 4 saves them from. Where I play, here are some of the things that charge you, looking around our tables in no particular order:

-Bloodcrushers
-Genestealers/TMC's
-Blood Angels w/Dante & Corbulo nearby
-Berserkers after you've been lashed into the only 3 guys fight back formation
- Killa Kans (and/or huge Ork mobs)

What I'm getting at is that folks only bring assault units that can crush marine squads. In 5th edition the defender doesn't really fight back, they get run over. MEQ's in Rhinos aren't novel, we've all learned how to handle them. If a list can't crush ten SM's on it's turn it isn't a competitive list anyway.

Thanks, this is going to make my point easier to illustrate. Are the blood claws going to beat these units? If they didn't, wouldn't they have had the same luck as the grey hunters? If they didn't, why didn't we spend the same points to get two BS4 special weapons?

40kenthusiast wrote:9 Grey Hunters w/Rhino + 1 Melta gun + 1 Power fist + 1 Wolf Guard w/Combi Melta & Power Fist + 1 Wolf standard + 1 Mark of the Wulfren

Vs.

9 Blood Claws w/Rhino + 1 Melta gun + 1 Power fist + 1 Wolf Guard w/Combi Melta & Power Fist

Grey Hunters are slightly more expensive.

Mark of the Wulfen + Wolf Standard versus the extra 9 attacks. I tend to come down on the Blood Claws side, but can see the wisdom of the alternative, particularly as it relates to wound allocation.

That's the debate to be having, and my gut is that it isn't a distinction that will matter in 90% of games. The result will be what it will be because someone made his smoke save or didn't, someone's assault failed its terrain test or didn't, not that I used Blood Claws and you used Grey Hunters.

The GH unit you built is not competitive. Why are you trying to make either troop unit in the space wolf codex a CC beater? If you want a troop CC beater, buy logan and take wolf guard. If you don't take logan, get your CC done through elite choices or with thunderwolf cavalry.

Shep wrote:The GH unit you built is not competitive. Why are you trying to make either troop unit in the space wolf codex a CC beater? If you want a troop CC beater, buy logan and take wolf guard. If you don't take logan, get your CC done through elite choices or with thunderwolf cavalry.

While I tend to agree overall, I would have to say that the best basis of a comparison between GH and BC is in similarly equipped units, especially as once you set the two units up similarly and to the exact same point cost, the actual difference in combat ability is minuscule and very situational.

And then GH have even better options in addition to a naive semi-assaulty build.

@Shep

You made every point I was about to make myself, I agree with your logic completely.

Grey Hunters shoot much better, and they assault just as well.

There really is not much of a comparison between the two units.

BC's aren't bad, just not as good with no compelling reason to take them.

Shep, I'm sorry that I offended you.

To begin again, it seems like we are debating 2 seperate points.

I'm claiming the superiority of Blood Claws in a list where the troops are Rhino Borne and used for CC and melta shots. You are claiming Grey Hunters are superior in a list where they are footslogging or drop pod based.

I'll concede your point. I don't have any experience running drop pod lists.

Y'know, I've been on these boards long enough to make one observation:

If Blood Claws had been made better in some way:

WS 4
Furious Charge
Availability of extra Power Weapons
Fleet
etc.

Then everyone who right now is complaining that BCs aren't as good as they want would now, instead, be complaining that GH's aren't worth taking....

Haha, that may be true.

But, with gamers like us who break things down to minutia, the two would have to be completely equal, or have very clearly delineated differences to warrant their inclusion in the dex.

As it stands now, they are about equal in assault, the GH's being a little better in most cases.

However, GH's are better at shooting by a large margin.

If the GH's were clearly better at shooting and the BC's were clearly better in assault, this argument would not exist.

That is not the case, which is why we scratch our heads and wonder why the BC's are in the dex they way they are.

Reecius wrote:If the GH's were clearly better at shooting and the BC's were clearly better in assault, this argument would not exist.

I have to agree with your analysis.

40kenthusiast wrote:Shep, I'm sorry that I offended you.

You know... I really went after your post, I did a ton of 'cross-posting' which i usually try to avoid. I'm not 'fired about' about the topic, but the way I went after your post could be perceived as such. I apologize for the aggressivenes.

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts in a rational manner.

Saldiven wrote:Y'know, I've been on these boards long enough to make one observation:

If Blood Claws had been made better in some way:

WS 4
Furious Charge
Availability of extra Power Weapons
Fleet
etc.

Then everyone who right now is complaining that BCs aren't as good as they want would now, instead, be complaining that GH's aren't worth taking....

Haha, could be true. And quite a funny observation,

But as was just said, there could have been an even ground. If blood claws were a few points cheaper, and possibly had access to a second powerfist (pre-WG obviously) I think they would make more of a mark.

They have no bolter, and BS3 for their special weapons (and a rule that won't let them shoot unless you spend more points which equals a hidden cost) I think they should have kept all that. But what they need is a large margin of superiority over grey hunters. they could have done that with WS3. They just needed to be 13 points, and a second fist. Or have discounted special CC weapons like grey hunters have discounted specials.

They aren't awful, but the point for point comparison to their brother troop choice just brings to light their shortcomings.

I'm claiming the superiority of Blood Claws in a list where the troops are Rhino Borne and used for CC and melta shots. You are claiming Grey Hunters are superior in a list where they are footslogging or drop pod based.

I still think Grey Hunters are superior choices for CC and melta shots from a rhino. Your arguments aren't convincing at all in this case.

WS3: More hits from ws4 means more wounds going on your damage dealers. I don't think that is a minor point when looking at adding a 25 point fist and a wolf guard. Not to mention the higher casaulties over the course of several combats -- you might win that particular combat but at what price (and would a GH really be that less likely to win on the charge when facing the scrubs?)

BS3: It may just be one melta that is BS3 in your loadout but that is still a notable negative in my opinion. Sure, it works just as well in a tank shock situation but that isn't the only time you will use it.

Overall: For rhino borne squads, taking BCs over GHs gives up way too much for such a paltry gain in close combat effectiveness. Your mileage may vary.

I can see one or two specialized Blood Claw builds which are superior to GH. Albeit you better be ready to fight in close combat because you are dealing with the 3 BS no matter what.

Land Raider Crusader: 14-15 BC, 0-1 WG, 0-1 Wolf Priest.

Skyclaws + Wolf Priest.

Bikesclaws + Wolf Priest.

All these are able to pick their point to charge rather than be charged. The wolf priest take the vow against infantry (usually) so that whole blob unloads and charges whatever you really want dead. They are hitting on a 3+ just like their opponents but each BC is pulling 4 attacks on the charge. There just aren't many armies that like taking an average of 60 attacks that hit 40 times and wound 20 times without even counting the WG or Wolf Priest.

Of course this is a dedicated CC attack unit so you field it with a purpose in mind and any opponent should figure that out also so it is very much an IN-YOUR-FACE choice compared to grey hunters.

dietrich wrote:
1. A couple Orks should make their saves. Say they kill 13 orks.
2. Without the charge, Orks need 5+ to wound the BCs. Which means that 17 orks get 34 attacks (assuming they are shoota boyz and not slugga boyz), 23 hits, and 8 wounds. About 3 BCs should die.
3. BCs win the combat by about 10, forcing another 10 wounds onto the Fearless ork mob.

Why would this force saves??? they either fall back, or if they are fearless, stay put. Itis not like they have the no retreat rule, and they can be sweeping advanced

@PotionsN'Balms:
If the orks still have enough models to be fearless, then they take no retreat wounds...

There is no 'no retreat' special rule...it's just a general rule when the conditions below are met:

1. Fearless unit.
2. Fearless unit loses combat.
3. Fearless unit takes armor saves = to how much they lost combat by.

What are you trying to say PotionsN'Balms?