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Found some inconsistencies in 3 places so far.

Njal some how doesn't lose his bolt pistol when switching to term armor. So +1 attack in charge for 2 hth weapons, in term armor,
Njals jaws of the world wolf. How wide is that straight line? No provision set down in codex.
Arjac Rockfist is really 188pts. You must first buy the wolf guard 18pts, then upgrade +170.

RB

-Sigh-

1: Yes, he keeps his Bolt Pistol, he is just that awesome. How is this an "Irregularity" when the rules are clear?

2: Look up "Line" on Google. By Definition, a line has no width, however, as we live in a 3d world, everything must have 3 dimensions minimum, so the easiest solution is to use a bit of string.

3: Well done, just like Lukas, and Creed, and other upgrade characters. Your point?

Trust me, those are not issues. I have poured over the codex for a month now, and they do not come close to some of the stuff that's FUBARed in the codex, like Wolf Scouts not having the "Scouts" USR, or Fenrisian Wolves not benefiting from ATSKNF, or half of Njal's Lord of Tempest effects not working if the SW player is going 2nd.

Gwar! wrote:
2: Look up "Line" on Google. By Definition, a line has no width, however, as we live in a 3d world, everything must have 3 dimensions minimum, so the easiest solution is to use a bit of string.

? you can make a 2D line.Take tape measure look along one edge. If it cuts through a base then that models been hit.

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
2: Look up "Line" on Google. By Definition, a line has no width, however, as we live in a 3d world, everything must have 3 dimensions minimum, so the easiest solution is to use a bit of string.

? you can make a 2D line.Take tape measure look along one edge. If it cuts through a base then that models been hit.

Yes, but that is technically a Rectangle, as it has a length and (albeit negligible, atomic scale) width, while a 1 dimensional line by mathematical definition has only length, no other dimensions.

Just being nit picky

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
2: Look up "Line" on Google. By Definition, a line has no width, however, as we live in a 3d world, everything must have 3 dimensions minimum, so the easiest solution is to use a bit of string.

? you can make a 2D line.Take tape measure look along one edge. If it cuts through a base then that models been hit.

The mathematical definition of a line states it has no thickness. That is technically impossible to do, since anything you use to represent it will have some degree of thickness. Of course, who cares? That's a forum argument, not a real one. You use whatever the thinnest piece of material handy is when it comes time to actually make the line, which will probably be a side ways tape measure.

What's left is for someone to argue the line is not used in a mathematical context, so it can have thickness! To that I say, a tool used to determine numbers (of models hit) is indeed a tool used in a mathematical context. It has no thickness.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
2: Look up "Line" on Google. By Definition, a line has no width, however, as we live in a 3d world, everything must have 3 dimensions minimum, so the easiest solution is to use a bit of string.

? you can make a 2D line.Take tape measure look along one edge. If it cuts through a base then that models been hit.

Yes, but that is technically a Rectangle, as it has a length and (albeit negligible, atomic scale) width, while a 1 dimensional line by mathematical definition has only length, no other dimensions.

Just being nit picky

No no not the tape measure. The edge. If a base pass under the EDGE its been hit.

The edge still has a thickness, otherwise how do you know it's an edge? It might be atoms/molecules thick, but it still has more than 1 dimension

See above image its ether to the one side or the other of the edge (miss) if its both then you're going through it. Only tough calls will be when it could be skimming a base.

For JOTWW I personally like a bit of rubber band. You have the Space Wolf player hold one end on his Rune Priest and you pull it taut to where he directs and mark all the models it touches.

Then you let it go and snap his hand for using such a cheezy power.

Tri wrote:See above image its ether to the one side or the other of the edge (miss) if its both then you're going through it. Only tough calls will be when it could be skimming a base.

IT STILL HAS A THICKNESS! Of about 1 atom, so it's not a line, it's a rectangle! Now I am getting petty, but yes, I do it how you do it too.

The Green Git wrote:For JOTWW I personally like a bit of rubber band. You have the Space Wolf player hold one end on his Rune Priest and you pull it taut to where he directs and mark all the models it touches.

Then you let it go and snap his hand for using such a cheezy power.

Cheese = Whatever my Opponent is playing tbfh. Adapt or Die as they say.

I never thought I would see the thickness of a line come up in a debate.

I think the string idea is the best solution for convenience and for not actually holding any hard objects over our precious minis.

An edge does not have a thickness. The area between one edge and another has a thickness, but the edge is the actual cut off point. Determining what is under a straight edge is the same as determining what falls under a line. It doesnt matter if you use the edge of a phone book laying flat or a ruler laying flat, what is going to fall under that actual flat edge is going to be the same. I think the OP is concerned with people measuring between the edges of a ruler, or in my example, a phone book. The width should not even be a consideration.

Sorry in advance if I did a bad job of constructing my point.

Majesticgoat wrote:I never thought I would see the thickness of a line come up in a debate.

I think the string idea is the best solution for convenience and for not actually holding any hard objects over our precious minis.

An edge does not have a thickness. The area between one edge and another has a thickness, but the edge is the actual cut off point. Determining what is under a straight edge is the same as determining what falls under a line. It doesnt matter if you use the edge of a phone book laying flat or a ruler laying flat, what is going to fall under that actual flat edge is going to be the same. I think the OP is concerned with people measuring between the edges of a ruler, or in my example, a phone book. The width should not even be a consideration.

Sorry in advance if I did a bad job of constructing my point.

Sadly, apparently the thickness of a line is so questionable that we even need two separate threads talking about it

I remember similar debates with Fury of the Ancients from 4th Ed SM codex.

Do Wolf Scouts have the Infiltrate USR? It has been my experience that most of the units that have scout are speedy types. Oh, and why, oh why would Fenrisian Wolves have ATSKNF?

warpcrafter wrote:Do Wolf Scouts have the Infiltrate USR? It has been my experience that most of the units that have scout are speedy types. Oh, and why, oh why would Fenrisian Wolves have ATSKNF?

Yes, Scouts have Infiltrate.

Fenrisisan Wolves don't have ATSKNF, they are just subject to it. They specified that a unit of them joined by a Space Wolf will convey it to them, they don't have it by themselves.

Do Wolf Scouts need Scout? Isn't the whole purpose of a Wolf Scout to come up in the enemy's deployment zone from reserves? My copy shows that they do have it BTW, pg. 88 (nevermind... missing an "s").

Homer


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:*** SNIP ***
Fenrisian Wolves not benefiting from ATSKNF
*** SNIP***

Last I checked, Wolves are not Space Marines. So how can they be endowed by the Emperor with ATSKNF? I think this one is probably correct.

Homer

Homer S wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:*** SNIP ***
Fenrisian Wolves not benefiting from ATSKNF
*** SNIP***

Last I checked, Wolves are not Space Marines. So how can they be endowed by the Emperor with ATSKNF? I think this one is probably correct.

Homer

No, what Gwar! is referring to stems from his interpretation of RAW. He said in another thread the break is because the wording in the codex says the unit of wolves must contain at least one Space Marine rather than saying Space Wolf.

This is an interpretation of RAW that I believe to be incorrect. Space Wolves are Space Marines. It works just fine as written.

Kaaihn wrote:

Homer S wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:*** SNIP ***
Fenrisian Wolves not benefiting from ATSKNF
*** SNIP***

Last I checked, Wolves are not Space Marines. So how can they be endowed by the Emperor with ATSKNF? I think this one is probably correct.

Homer

No, what Gwar! is referring to stems from his interpretation of RAW. He said in another thread the break is because the wording in the codex says the unit of wolves must contain at least one Space Marine rather than saying Space Wolf.

This is an interpretation of RAW that I believe to be incorrect. Space Wolves are Space Marines. It works just fine as written.

Sorry, I was unclear. In my post "Wolves" means "Fenrisian Wolves" not "Space Wolves"

Homer

Homer S wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:

Homer S wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:*** SNIP ***
Fenrisian Wolves not benefiting from ATSKNF
*** SNIP***

Last I checked, Wolves are not Space Marines. So how can they be endowed by the Emperor with ATSKNF? I think this one is probably correct.

Homer

No, what Gwar! is referring to stems from his interpretation of RAW. He said in another thread the break is because the wording in the codex says the unit of wolves must contain at least one Space Marine rather than saying Space Wolf.

This is an interpretation of RAW that I believe to be incorrect. Space Wolves are Space Marines. It works just fine as written.

Sorry, I was unclear. In my post "Wolves" means "Fenrisian Wolves" not "Space Wolves"

Homer

No, you were clear. Gwar commented that Fenrisian Wolves not benefiting from ATSKNF is broken. You commented that is probably correct, how can wolves be endowed by the Emperor with ATSKNF?

I'm pointing out Gwar isn't saying that Fenrisian Wolves don't benefit because they are wolves, he is saying they don't benefit because of a typo. If the wording said "contains at least one Space Wolf" rather than "contains at least one Space Marine", there would be no perception of a problem.

I say perception, because I don't believe his interpretation of RAW here is correct. Space Wolves are Space Marines, the rule works just fine as written. As written, Fenrisian Wolves benefit from ATSKNF if there is at least one Space Wolf Space Marine in the unit.

Space Marine in that sentence is not referring exclusively to units in Codex: Space Marines. That's where the confusion comes from.

If they had said "one Space Wolf" that'd be a different headache. What is a Space Wolf? Is it a unit from the Space Wolf codex? Fenrisian wolves are in the Space Wolf codex, therefore if 'Fenrisian wolves need one Space Wolf model to gain ATSKNF', they would... have ATSKNF, right?

It's like how Markerlights benefit Tau models - what's a Tau model? Is it anyone from the Codex: Tau? Is it everyone that's not a Kroot or Vespid?

And this is what happens when GW writes rules. You get a bunch of nutters arguing over what is a Space Marine. It'd be nice if GW would clear this up, but I doubt it happens. I doubt that you have an issue with it in a tourney.

Kaaihn wrote:Sadly, apparently the thickness of a line is so questionable that we even need two separate threads talking about it

Of course. It's all part of the plan. GW is following the time-honored strategy of creating a problem and then selling the solution. Stay tuned for the new Citadel Laser Level for $59. It's the perfect tool for lining up your shot.

dietrich wrote:If they had said "one Space Wolf" that'd be a different headache. What is a Space Wolf? Is it a unit from the Space Wolf codex? Fenrisian wolves are in the Space Wolf codex, therefore if 'Fenrisian wolves need one Space Wolf model to gain ATSKNF', they would... have ATSKNF, right?

Considering it uses Space Wolf 2 or 3 times before it in the ATSKNF rule, I think it's safe to say it is meant to say Space Wolf in the last instance as well.

Does the model that dies by lucas get an INV save? Or does he just freeze?

For example say he is fighting abbadabdon and abby kills lucas what happens next, and also say some of abbies retinue are in base to base with lucas?

beef wrote:Does the model that dies by lucas get an INV save? Or does he just freeze?

For example say he is fighting abbadabdon and abby kills lucas what happens next, and also say some of abbies retinue are in base to base with lucas?

When Lukas dies, you and your opponent roll a die. If Lukas rolls higher, all models in base contact with him are removed from play as casualties. No saving throw, just hope you roll higher than Lukas when he dies.

No saving throws, no Judge, no Jury, just removed as a casualty.

Still doesn't justify his insane cost.

Gwar! wrote:No saving throws, no Judge, no Jury, just removed as a casualty.

Still doesn't justify his insane cost.

Well it does if he takes out an special character and his retinue or a titan.

beef wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No saving throws, no Judge, no Jury, just removed as a casualty.

Still doesn't justify his insane cost.

Well it does if he takes out an special character and his retinue or a titan.

9 Times out of 10 they won't ever reach it. And considering he costs MORE than a whole extra 12 man BC unit, I'd rather take the extra 44 or so attacks and 9 wounds TYVM

Also he is not an IC so can he still direct his attacks at models in BTB and can an IC allocate his attacks against Lucas (as he is essentially a squad upgrade)>

Whats the point of his cloak unless he is the last guy left in his squad?

beef wrote:Also he is not an IC so can he still direct his attacks at models in BTB and can an IC allocate his attacks against Lucas (as he is essentially a squad upgrade)>

Whats the point of his cloak unless he is the last guy left in his squad?

He is considered part of the squad, so you use the normal rules.

What his cloak does is prevent Snipers from getting him (Vindicare, Mind War etc etc). See my FAQ for a more detailed Description

I found one today.

Njal stat line shows he has a 3+ save. He wears Runic Armor which gives a 2+ save.

Nice to see what falls through the cracks :(