Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am trying to make a list with a SM special HQ, and I don't want to use vulkan. I was thinking about using Sicarious, but I just can't decide if he is worth the points.
Any Thoughts?

'Worth' is subjective.
Generally you'll want an army list that can maximize what he brings.

You'll want:
-At least one tactical squad.
-More infantry units to maximize Rites of Battle.
-A posse for him to ride around with.
-An army that would rather go first (making the most of his Sieze rr.

As to the worthiness in points.

He has captain stats, PP, AA, FNP, Vet skills for a tactical, power weapon is roughly worth 185...
So you pay 15 points for the Seize rr, Rites of battle, and Coup strike.

I find him a 'meh' HQ.

Do a search for Sicarious. A good while back, we kept a thread going for a little while about the various uses and worth of Sicarious, and came up with some pretty good ideas over all.

I think he's a great addition to an army if you build your tactical squads to take advantage of his powers, and a waste if not.

Check out the threads, and get some playtime with him. He's not bad by anyone's standards, but the ZOMGVULKAN crowd kinda shouted down the rest of us when the codex came out.

I'm with GeneralRetreat. My army typically runs at least 4 tactical squads at 1500+ points and the few times I've used him, I've had great results. The ability to give a 10 man squad tank hunters and then combat squad them down so the melta gun and powerfist get close while the lascannon sits back and shots is nice. Rites of Battle is good and if you put a couple of units in good positions to take advantage of a lucky seize roll, that ability helps too. I typically run a cheap librarian because I don't like spending many points on HQ choices but Sicarius is worth it if your army is built around the good old tac marine.

I've been playing around with Shrike lists and having a good time. Assault marines, assault termies, scouts getting a turn 1 charge (great for using krak grenades on vehicles that haven't moved yet).

But yeah, Sicarious is probably the most underused.

I prefer to stay away from Shrike til GW FAQ's the idiocy that is RAW with him.

The only special characters I've tried are:
Kantor, Vulkan, and Khan.

Well, I'd stay away from special characters.
They have a bad taste for my liking.
I usually field a Librarian w/ terminator armour, storm shield.
He's a great support character.

Yea, I usually go with a Captain on a Bike....

Heh, Wuestenfux, and like a broken record...the IC I use is for them bikers.

Though I do use Khan for like fun games for flavor at the 1250 level.

I hear a lot of anti-SC sentiment, especially from the players who have been around since 2nd ed, when they called the game HeroHammer. Apparently back then Special Characters just dominated any game they were in, and it left a bad taste in people's mouths, which I can understand.

Today though, the Special Characters are more balanced, I think, and represent very unique and distinct army builds, some of which they unlock directly, and others that they encourage due to special rules.

I've never found SC's to be overpowered, actually, I find them to be very well costed. They are a huge investment, but can define an army while not actually being the lynchpin of the army.

I've used Sicarious and Calgar with my forces, and have seen Vulkan, Pedro, Khan, and Shrike all used to great effect.

Sicarious is the perfect compliment to a bread-and-butter Tactical Marines list, while Calgar is like the new black -- goes great with anything. You just have to determine when the cost of the SC is in line with the points you're playing at.

Sicarious, IMO, is a 1500+ only character, and Calgar a 2000+ only. Even at these levels, they're almost too expensive, but are just on the inside rim of feasable.

In 4th ed, they used to put points-level restrictions on the SCs, but they were much less powerful. Now, I feel like they did a great job at re-balancing, and they unrestricted them, which means you COULD use Marneus in a 750 point game. But you run into the same problem as a Land Raider in that low points environment. On a good day, you dominate, and on a bad day, you realize that no one model is enough to lay the smack down on the entire board, no matter how bad-ass.

Ive run all of the non ultra marine HQ special characters.

personal favourite is Pedro, good allround character, 4 shot ap4 storm bolter for great ranged damage, pwer fist and +1 attack for models around him for awesome CC damage, makes your units stubborn, scoring sternguard is always a plus.

#2 would be shrike, great in melee, ability to infiltrate with a squad for potential first turn assaults, gives your whole army the fleet rule, can deep strike, rending lightning claws.

#3 lysander, pain in the ass to kill with a 2+ save and 3+ invulnerable, str 10 thunder hammer, bolter drill is ok if you stick him with a squad of regular termies he becomes less benificial with sternguard or tac/HB devie squads, again makes your units stubborn, has a soul patch.

Sanctjud wrote:Yea, I usually go with a Captain on a Bike....

Heh, Wuestenfux, and like a broken record...the IC I use is for them bikers.

Though I do use Khan for like fun games for flavor at the 1250 level.

Well, I know that you would use a Biker Captain.

Khan is indeed fun at smaller point games.

It seems like Khan and Vulkan are the ones to go with. Vulkan for obvious reasons. Khan, you really need to build a list around him.

A friend of mine plays a Khan list. He outflanks Khan and a bunch of assault terminators with lightning claws (to take advantage of Master of the Hunt) and maybe a thunder hammer or two in a Land Raider, and uses 2 thunderfire cannons (I'd use Vindicators but to each his own) to keep the enemy from deploying too far from the table edges.

Everyone expects something small to outflank. Maybe some scouts or Striking Scorpions or whatever. Nobody expects a Land Raider with assault terminators to pop out on their flanks.



Again though, you really need to gear your list toward that style of play. For what it's worth, I'd love to run a Khan list with an LRC, 7 assault termies (5 LC 2 TH/SS), Khan in the Raider, 2 vindicators, and fill up the points in tac squads and MM/HF land speeders (also outflanking?).

IMO, this is the only case where the Land Raider Redeemer is worth anything. You might actually get one of those flamer templates to do something!



Lastly, if you're running a Chaplain foot slogger for HQ, Cassius seems to be the one to go with. For 25 points you get toughness 6 and FNP. Cheapest special HQ, one of the hardest to kill.

Cassius:
Meh. For all his defensive qualities, he only has 2 wounds...I wouldn't say he's the hardest to kill.

Sanctjud wrote:Cassius:
Meh. For all his defensive qualities, he only has 2 wounds...I wouldn't say he's the hardest to kill.

yep but he is cheap.

Yeah, Cassius is awful cheap for WS5, (base) T6, A2, FNP, and chaplain buffs (fearless, re-roll To Hit on charge).

He's a little tricky to use, though, if you ask me. I want to put him with Vanguard Vets, but he can't take a jump pack.

Sanctjud wrote:Cassius:
Meh. For all his defensive qualities, he only has 2 wounds...I wouldn't say he's the hardest to kill.

I specifically said one of the hardest to kill. The only one harder to kill, in that codex, would be Calgar. Usually you'll find that your independent characters are singled out in combat and instakilled with power fists rather than beaten with sheer number of attacks. Due to the higher toughness you really can't instakill Cassius, and Calgar is only tougher due to Eternal Warrior.

So, half the price of Calgar, nearly as tough to kill. Possibly tougher to kill with low st volume fire.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Cassius:
Meh. For all his defensive qualities, he only has 2 wounds...I wouldn't say he's the hardest to kill.

I specifically said one of the hardest to kill. The only one harder to kill, in that codex, would be Calgar.

Actually, Lysander is harder to kill than Calgar. The only difference between Lysander and Calgar in Terminator Armour is that Lysander has a 3+ invulnerable, where Calgar's is 4+.

I would advocate the use of Lysander and/or Pedro Kantor. Both make Sternguard squads even more powerful, providing one squad with twin-linked bolters and a serious CC-threat, or by giving them all scoring and an extra attack when within 12".

GeneralRetreat wrote:Yeah, Cassius is awful cheap for WS5, (base) T6, A2, FNP, and chaplain buffs (fearless, re-roll To Hit on charge).

He's a little tricky to use, though, if you ask me. I want to put him with Vanguard Vets, but he can't take a jump pack.

True. You're stuck foot-slogging him. IMO he's good for bolstering a unit in conjunction with another special character.

I really want to do Khan, Cassius, and 7 assault terminators (2 TH/SS, 5 LC) in an LRC. That's 20 LC attacks, I5 S5, rerolling misses / failed rolls to wound, plus Cassius' attacks, plus Khan's attacks, then the TH attacks @ str. 10. UGLY! And it outflanks.

It's 815 points, but it's 815 points that's monstrous in CC, strikes first against MEQs, and outflanks, so it's probably gonna survive long enough to get into combat. I don't know too many things that can hold a candle to that. *maybe* a huge harlequin troupe or boyz, but you're getting those rapid-firing bolters to thin the herd a little bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MinMax wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Cassius:
Meh. For all his defensive qualities, he only has 2 wounds...I wouldn't say he's the hardest to kill.

I specifically said one of the hardest to kill. The only one harder to kill, in that codex, would be Calgar.

Actually, Lysander is harder to kill than Calgar. The only difference between Lysander and Calgar in Terminator Armour is that Lysander has a 3+ invulnerable, where Calgar's is 4+.

I would advocate the use of Lysander and/or Pedro Kantor. Both make Sternguard squads even more powerful, providing one squad with twin-linked bolters and a serious CC-threat, or by giving them all scoring and an extra attack when within 12".

Good call, didn't realize he's got Eternal Warrior.

Actually, those TH's would only be S9, furious charge is added after doubling S

And at 825pts.. well, you will contest that one objective, and you will kill that one unit REAL good, but when that LR blows, have fun running your superheroes after the enemy

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

MinMax wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Cassius:
Meh. For all his defensive qualities, he only has 2 wounds...I wouldn't say he's the hardest to kill.

I specifically said one of the hardest to kill. The only one harder to kill, in that codex, would be Calgar.

Actually, Lysander is harder to kill than Calgar. The only difference between Lysander and Calgar in Terminator Armour is that Lysander has a 3+ invulnerable, where Calgar's is 4+.

I would advocate the use of Lysander and/or Pedro Kantor. Both make Sternguard squads even more powerful, providing one squad with twin-linked bolters and a serious CC-threat, or by giving them all scoring and an extra attack when within 12".

Good call, didn't realize he's got Eternal Warrior.

Lysander just doesn't die does he?

I've found he doesn't like implant attacks... or NFWs.

Gornall wrote:I've found he doesn't like implant attacks... or NFWs.

NFW dont really make a difference vs the 3+ invul save, I find vindicre assassins particularily effective fro removing at least one wound from him before combat ensues, or an asassin team for taking them all in an apoc game.

@ManwithIronHands:
It's not really the power weapon aspect of the NFW, it's the 'slay outright' part after it gets through the 3++.

Gotta be more specific as yoyu probly know a NFW does different things, grand master is the +2 str Fw, brother captains, termies, and juticares are +2 str power weapon, and PAGK are jsut +2 strenth.

On that note Id bet that 10 PAGK have a much better chance of killing someone with a 2+/3++ than one GKGM.

The GKGM has 4 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2s. probly avraging 3 hits and probly 3 wounds. Probly all 3 are going to be saved might get lucky and get one or 2 through the 3++. 10 PAGK 20 attacks hitting on 4s for 10 hits, wounding on 2s for probly 9 wounds, probly around 7 saved on a 2+.

Well....if he causes 3 wounds on average, the IC will fail a 3++ once in three on average.

Then a simple ld test and pop.

I'm not saying it's ideal, just saying the GKGM can.

A single model vs. 10 models is a huge difference, in points and board space, etc.

The GKGM han kill just about any single model that doesn't have a massive I value, which would mean any space marine capitan,(=/) archon, and artuch are exempt (not that the Artuch can beat 'im anyway, on average). Bloodthirsters, DEAD, Lysander DEAD, Calgar NOT DEAD. Darned lightning claw power weapon! Hive Tyrant, Warboss, anything with a power fist, Cannoness, other GKGM, ect. DEAD

However massivly fails againts hordes, esp. hidden PF/PK's

EDIT: wait, GKGM's arn't "special" are they?

Well...he could take Holocaust for the lulz vs. hordes...but yea.

Stick him in a retinue and he won't be picked out by the fist....the only issue is that it costs points.

Sanctjud wrote:Well...he could take Holocaust for the lulz vs. hordes...but yea.

Stick him in a retinue and he won't be picked out by the fist....the only issue is that it costs points.

Technicly he can take 2, one for the squad and one himself. quite an effective tactic for removing hordes.

And yes you can cast both, one is the squad as a whole casting it and the other is cast by the GKGM himself tho they are both centered on him.

P.S. Pedro and a GKGM is a really FUN combo. Ive made more than one oponent cry with that combo. toss a chaplain and 2 GK termies in for flavour in planetstrike and you'll have a very damn good charging unit for the first turn deep strike.

ManwithIronHands wrote:

P.S. Pedro and a GKGM is a really FUN combo. Ive made more than one oponent cry with that combo. toss a chaplain and 2 GK termies in for flavour in planetstrike and you'll have a very damn good charging unit for the first turn deep strike.

Oh, that is meaner than a Warboss with a hangnail. I've got to try it.