Doing the Impossible - Dark Eldar 1500 Point List.

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**radiohazard**

Seeing as though I'm still having trouble selecting an army, I asked a friend for his opinion and he (and everyone at my FLGS) challenged me to do a Dark Eldar army.

Now I've seen a lot of people saying that the Dark Eldar army doesn't have a lot going for it:

No recent codex, No new miniatures for nearly 10 years and one that didn't sit well with me - DARK ELDAR CAN'T WIN GAMES!!!

My theory is that Dark Eldar can be a real dark horse when it comes to gaming. No one ever expects to play against them. In the three FLGS in my area and the local GW store nobody plays them and everyone says they are the worst army in 40K.

My rebelious side wants to prove all the nay-sayers wrong.

This is the first list I've come up with - which is similar to my old DE list from when the codex was updated. Any comments???

HQ

Archon = 137
Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, Plasma Grenades.

Retinue = 198
Two Warriors with Splinter Cannons, 2 Incubi with Blasters, 4 Incubi.

Raider = 70
Night Shield.

Troops

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.

Raider = 70
Night Shield.

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.

Raider = 70
Night Shield.

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.

Raider = 70
Night Shield.

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

Heavy Support

Ravager = 140
3 Disintegrators, Night Shield.

Ravager = 140
3 Disintegrators, Night Shield.

Ravager = 125
3 Dark Lances, Night Shield.

**Mekboy490**

Dark eldar arent that bad if you give ALL warriors 3 Dark Lances

**radiohazard**

Warrior squads can only have up to two DL and Raider Squads one.

IMO Splinter Cannons are needed to take on horde armies like Orks and Nids.

**Thor665**

Greetings,

As far as "Dark Eldar can't win games." Your friends are fools and I fully expect you to stomp their heads in to teach them a proper lesson.

Your list is Wyche free which gets a knee jerk negative reaction from me - but clearly you're planning to load up your super gunboats and stay very shooty (hence that amazingly shooty Incubus squad).

Overall I really like it - you almost managed to make me think "man, maybe he has too many Lances" in a 1500 point list, which is no small feat. I'm a little concerned with the points dropped in the Retinue to make it so shooty when it will also be your only real assault tool. STill you're meched up enough that you ought to be able to gak your gunline to avoid any solid engagements.

I like the list, i play assaulty DE, but this looks like a solid shooty list that should be able to perform fairly well in objective missions and with the usual difficulties in KP missions.

If you're new to 5th edition (which it sounds like you may be) I will warn you this edition might as well be called Warhammer 4+ cover saves. Everything can get cover saves practically all the time. Just be mindful and use your Raiders to channel and flank the enemy to prevent cover saves and the Splinter weaponry and blasters will still be able to do their work. Also make sure to read up on Kill Points which have replaced the much more sensible Victory Points. DE suffer on that front pretty heavily and your force has 15 KPs at 1500, which is a pretty hefty number. I'm not sure I'd advocate changing anything, you ust need to be aware of the potential danger a KP mission holds for DE in 5th.

Regards,
Thor.

**PopeAwesomeXXI**

Splinter cannons suck but a group of wyches can take 2 shredders which means 2 s6 blasts. Give their raider a torture amp so it can tank shock and then blast stuff. And the raider still has a dark lance. Also punishers on an archons are bad there are very few incidences where it is better than an agoniser and many when it is worse including against high toughness stuff and especially against vehicles since you didn't grab haywire grenades for some reason.

Incubi aren't very efficient, 25 pts for a t3 3+ model is bad even with 2 s4 pw attacks and i 5. The best thing to do with your Archon/Archite is to kit him out and stick him in a wych squad

**wuestenfux**

Well, DE is a tough army to beat in the hands of the right Archon.

Retinue = 198
Two Warriors with Splinter Cannons, 2 Incubi with Blasters, 4 Incubi.

I'd take a unit of Incubi with power weapons.
Warriors and Incubi with blasters such in this unit.
A smart enemy will target the Warriors, take them down,
and then your precious HQ will face an LD test.

I'd drop all those night shields on the Raiders.
They are too expensive and hardly a life saver.

**radiohazard**

Thor665 wrote:Greetings,

As far as "Dark Eldar can't win games." Your friends are fools and I fully expect you to stomp their heads in to teach them a proper lesson.

Your list is Wyche free which gets a knee jerk negative reaction from me - but clearly you're planning to load up your super gunboats and stay very shooty (hence that amazingly shooty Incubus squad).

Overall I really like it - you almost managed to make me think "man, maybe he has too many Lances" in a 1500 point list, which is no small feat. I'm a little concerned with the points dropped in the Retinue to make it so shooty when it will also be your only real assault tool. STill you're meched up enough that you ought to be able to gak your gunline to avoid any solid engagements.

I like the list, i play assaulty DE, but this looks like a solid shooty list that should be able to perform fairly well in objective missions and with the usual difficulties in KP missions.

If you're new to 5th edition (which it sounds like you may be) I will warn you this edition might as well be called Warhammer 4+ cover saves. Everything can get cover saves practically all the time. Just be mindful and use your Raiders to channel and flank the enemy to prevent cover saves and the Splinter weaponry and blasters will still be able to do their work. Also make sure to read up on Kill Points which have replaced the much more sensible Victory Points. DE suffer on that front pretty heavily and your force has 15 KPs at 1500, which is a pretty hefty number. I'm not sure I'd advocate changing anything, you ust need to be aware of the potential danger a KP mission holds for DE in 5th.

Regards,
Thor.

Thor has hit my army and it's tactics on the nail. It's true, I'm new to 5th and WH4+

. The idea was to be able to hit my opponent on his flank with the Raiders/Ravagers and leave the poor Sniper Squads to take the hit.

PopeAwesomeXXI wrote:Splinter cannons suck but a group of wyches can take 2 shredders which means 2 s6 blasts. Give their raider a torture amp so it can tank shock and then blast stuff. And the raider still has a dark lance. Also punishers on an archons are bad there are very few incidences where it is better than an agoniser and many when it is worse including against high toughness stuff and especially against vehicles since you didn't grab haywire grenades for some reason.

Incubi aren't very efficient, 25 pts for a t3 3+ model is bad even with 2 s4 pw attacks and i 5. The best thing to do with your Archon/Archite is to kit him out and stick him in a wych squad

I can see where your logic lies when you say that Splinter Cannons suck, but I can say IMO Shredders are just not worth it. I'm taking your advice on Wyches as I can possibly include two squads in for the cost of that retinue.

In regards to the lord, a Punisher is on par with the Agoniser unless you are facing MC or stuff with a general high toughness - Plague Marines come to mind here. Well look at this...

Agoniser - Wounds on 4+, no armour save, we know it and love it. Now Combat Drugs cannot improve this at all, you will be wounding on a 4+ no matter what.

Punisher - Is a Str 4 Power Weapon, that can gain +1 Str from combat drugs. Look, I still wound Plague Marines on a 4+ (Ok MC on a 5+, but I have a ton of DL for those) and against MEQ I wound on a 3+ and GEQ on a 2+.

To summarise - Take the Agoniser if you want to bash MC. Take the Punisher if you want to put the hurt on Troops.

BTW Tank Shock with a Raider is a very bad idea. It's always a case of hello Mr Ork Nob, thats a shiny Klaw you have there.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, DE is a tough army to beat in the hands of the right Archon.

Retinue = 198
Two Warriors with Splinter Cannons, 2 Incubi with Blasters, 4 Incubi.

I'd take a unit of Incubi with power weapons.
Warriors and Incubi with blasters such in this unit.
A smart enemy will target the Warriors, take them down,
and then your precious HQ will face an LD test.

I'd drop all those night shields on the Raiders.
They are too expensive and hardly a life saver.

I'm quite partial to taking a squad like this, in 3rd and 4th it served me well. I think i'll stay with the old adage tried and tested here.

I am taking towards your trail of thought on Night Shields. The weapons that are made to take out transports - Ork Lootas, Autocannon and Lascannon all have a 48" range, which on a tourney battlefield is how wide the short end is. Which in turn means other than on turn 1 i'm going to be in range of all that stuff anyway. Small arms fire from non FW units on my Raiders is just not that big a threat when I plan to Flank my opponent. So with the 120 points saved and the retinue dropped...

HQ

Archon = 137
Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, Plasma Grenades.

Elites

9 Wyches = 127
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters.
Raider = 55

9 Wyches including Succubus = 135
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters.
Raider = 55

Troops

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

Heavy Support

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 105
3 Dark Lances.

1499 Points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've got some good ideas for converting some new DE Warriors, so I don't have to suffer with those really old and terrible 3rd Ed ones.

I'll have the WIP pics up when I've sourced out the bits I need.

**wuestenfux**

I'll have the WIP pics up when I've sourced out the bits I need.

I'm curious about these pics.

**Thor665**

Some good ideas all around.

I love and approve of the addition of Wyches to the list. I am a little intrigued by the lack of an Agoniser on those Wych squads however. I see you're trying to utilize them as pseudo-gunboats (I feel like you're more excited to get the Blasters and the additional DL from another Raider) but I question the wisdom of putting in such an amazing counter-charge and tarpit unit without one of its vital basic tools - the Agoniser. I would suggest you entertain the thought of dropping the overall number of Wyches in a squad down and adding an Agoniser since versus MEQ an Agoniser is worth far more then an additional couple of Str 3 swings from an extra pair of Wyches. Dropping the squad to 6-7 might aid you in this cause and not weaken their ability to inflict damage much at all.

I'll second your defense of the Punisher Lord build - he is an excellent troop killer. In 5th it is common to build a Punisher Lord onto a Reaver JetBike for an additional Str boost (and then take a Str drug as well if you need it...) as the DE FAQ which most tournies follow allows for the use of a Punisher on a RJB, and you don't even give up your built in splinter rifle.

radiohazard wrote:I'm quite partial to taking a squad like this, in 3rd and 4th it served me well. I think i'll stay with the old adage tried and tested here.

I'm not sure if your retinue was optimal (I certainly approve of dropping them in favor of Wyches) but I'll note that thanks to the initiative advantage the DE have versus most armies and your use of a Punisher showing that you were building a troop hunter, the Warriors are not too huge of a liability since your Lord and Incubi will severely gut the enemy before he can swing back at you.

Also, as part of a Retinue, the opponent cannot "target your Warriors" it is up to you to decide how to allocate wounds to the squad (though, yeah, Warriors should be absorbing nasty wounds long before you start risking Incubi). But some Warriors in a Retinue is still a functional and worthwhile strategy option.

I am taking towards your trail of thought on Night Shields. The weapons that are made to take out transports - Ork Lootas, Autocannon and Lascannon all have a 48" range, which on a tourney battlefield is how wide the short end is.

I, personally, don't use Night Shields much because cost wise not using them generally gives me an extra Raider - which I consider more useful (though as I've said, I run Assault DE and who needs Night Shields on a Raider I'm taking up close and personal in any case? I add Horrorfexes).

However, lots of very good players swear by their usefulness and they are very functional on Ravagers, which tend to serve more of an artillery role then Raiders do. I'll also note, to a certain extent, considering the 10AV on Raiders Nightshields can be lifesavers for avoiding rapid fire or other mundane squad weapons fire. The big guns will always be able to target you, yes, but a squad of rapid fire bolters is a near guaranteed Raider wreck. Night Shields can help avoid that and also make it harder for things like Necron Warriors or Wraithguard to get you in range, which can greatly extend the life of your Raider.

**Shadowbrand**

Dark Eldar are great!

But you gotta know that well:A you can't take a hit :B DARK LANCES!!
But try 3 decked Warrior sqauds in raiders 3 ravagers 1 or 2 talos and a HQ and your good to go!

**radiohazard**

@Thor...

Agreed.

I honestly think the Wych squads are the way forward to at least give me some sort of counter charge.

This is the final list as it stands...

Dark Eldar

HQ

Lord Puscifer (Archon) = 137
Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, Plasma Grenades.

Elites

7 Wyches including Succubus = 129
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters, Agoniser.
Raider = 55

7 Wyches including Succubus = 129
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters, Agoniser.
Raider = 55

Troops

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

Heavy Support

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 105
3 Dark Lances.

1495 Points.

I just need to fill in the last 5 points. Any suggestions?

**wuestenfux**

Your Wyches would benefit from trophy racks.

**radiohazard**

Trophy racks?

The ones on the raiders aren't particularly worth it and neither are the wargear ones...

Oh wait...

I see what you're saying

**Sarigar**

Interesting. I've not heard anything about DE not being able to win.

Having an out of date codex and horrible models....definitely.

**Drk_Oblitr8r**

Your thread has awoken me to something.

I don't have an army list yet, and I'm starting Dark Eldar, soon (before the end of the year hopefully). And for a moment, I was almost panicing, "must make a list must make a list", but now I remember, I did it on purpose, because my army isn't going to go from start to finish that quickly, so I can assess what I need to get as I go along.

For your 5 points, give your archon a hell mask?

**Farmer**

radiohazard wrote:

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

Lolwut?.
What are you playing at taking this unit ?,if you are EVER going to take DE on foot always give them 2 DL's.
Imo the unit i quoted needs a Raider to be effective.
As for the list i like it although personally i would drop all the splintercannons,give all the ravagers disses (no DL's) and give every raider and ravager for 5 pt a horrafex which in the long run will help you beat and pin orks if you can manage to weaken them down.

**radiohazard**

Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Your thread has awoken me to something.

I don't have an army list yet, and I'm starting Dark Eldar, soon (before the end of the year hopefully). And for a moment, I was almost panicing, "must make a list must make a list", but now I remember, I did it on purpose, because my army isn't going to go from start to finish that quickly, so I can assess what I need to get as I go along.

For your 5 points, give your archon a hell mask?

If you're starting out bit by bit, your method is sound.

Thanks for the hell mask idea.

@Wustenfex...

The idea I have for my warriors is to combine the Dark Avenger and Dark Eldar sprues to modernise the look of the warriors. The archon will be a slight conversion of the autarch of iyanden. I'll be getting some of these warriors finished by this time next week.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Farmer wrote:
radiohazard wrote:

10 Man Warrior Squad = 110
2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters.

Lolwut?.
What are you playing at taking this unit ?,if you are EVER going to take DE on foot always give them 2 DL's.
Imo the unit i quoted needs a Raider to be effective.
As for the list i like it although personally i would drop all the splintercannons,give all the ravagers disses (no DL's) and give every raider and ravager for 5 pt a horrafex which in the long run will help you beat and pin orks if you can manage to weaken them down.

You seem to miss the point of this entry.

I've said this before, but I'll reiterate the tactic:

Take a minimum sized Raider squad with dark lance and a basic Raider.
Take a minimum sized Warrior squad with 2 splinter cannons and 2 blasters.
In the deployment phase put the raider squad near the raider but not in it.
Deploy the warrior squad near the raider and turn 1 embark them onto the raider.
This makes a Raider into a pretty good uber gunboat and the raider squad into a tank sniper squad.

Try it... It works really well.

**Ketara**

Here's some tips from a veteran Dark Eldar player.

Super-Gunboats are handy, but using them in large multiple is a waste. Drop one of the squads with 2 splinter cannons, and replace it with a Raider Squad with 5 warriors and a dark lance, and a night shield. That way you'll have two super gunboats, the equivalent of a single dark lance sniper squad, and two of what have come to be known as 'Sniper Boats'.

Sniper Boats hang around at the back of the field and barely move, but allow you to fire off two dark lance shots a turn( at different targets if you like). Their Night Shields protect them from most return fire, and they're capable of zooming across the field on the last few turns to dump a squad on an objective.

My next tip is less essential, but is a matter of taste. Drop a wych squad, as Wyches are primarily in existence to take out things like the Avatar, Greater Demons, and combat units, and don't fare too well against regular combat units. In 1500 points, if you're running a shooty list, one squad is enough. With the points that are freed up, upgrade your Lord to having a Jetbike, and an Animus Vitae.
Then use the remaining points to buy a 'Reaver Blade' formation (that's 3 jetbikes with two blasters).When the game starts you attach the Lord to this unit, and place it on the flanks. Then, when the unit has reached the other side of the battlefield, you disengage the Lord from the unit, and have him tear into the enemy troops. With his large number of attacks, high strength, and invulnerable save, he should be able to slaughter his way through a unit or two with ease. The Reaver Blade formation can then initiate tank hunting duties, and pick off the remnants that may rally after the lord chops through them.

Thirdly, always give Ravagers Night Shields. For Lord's Raiders, wych raiders, and even gunboat raiders, the Night Shield is either unnecessary, or in the case of the latter, a luxury. Sniper Boats and Ravagers should always take them however, as their primary role is to serve as the firepower, and this helps them stay alive to do so. Even if you lose the rest of your force, if you have your Ravagers and a few Sniper Boats on the edge of the map, you can still win the game, as you have scoring units, and heavy guns.

Also, if you run Sniper Boats and Reaver Blades, you have plenty of anti-tank firepower, and so can allow your Ravagers to focus on anti-infantry. Therefore swap the ravager with 3 dark lances to 3 disentegrators.

Many of the people that give advice clearly do not play Dark Eldar, and so can be safely disregarded( e.g. Farmer). Thor however, knows whaty he's talking about, even if he does have a penchant for including too many wyches.

(just kidding Thor)

**Thor665**

Ketara wrote:Many of the people that give advice clearly do not play Dark Eldar, and so can be safely disregarded( e.g. Farmer). Thor however, knows whaty he's talking about, even if he does have a penchant for including too many wyches.
(just kidding Thor)

I like my Wyche racks

I will however agree that (other then his grossly incorrect views about Wyches

) Ketara is offering some solid tactical options. As I mentioned earlier a RJB Lord is a potentially potent tool to consider, and Ketara certainly describes an optimal escort unit for one. I admit, even though I like a Lord + Wyches unit that pretty much since 5th got underway my Lord is almost always either with Incubi or on a RJB if he's carrying a Punisher. They seem the most strategically optimal builds for troop killing at the moment. I think your Wyche plan is quite functional too and won't dismiss it out of hand, but this is information to consider.

I'll also note there are some mixed opinion about Sniper Squads on Raiders. Yes, they are about the same as a three Lance Ravager. However - you're paying the same amount of points for a vehicle with less armor, that only has two Lances instead of three, and that cannot move at all to use two Lances, while the Ravager can still move combat speed. I'll also add that if exploded the Sniper Boat = 2 Kill Points while a Ravager only equlas one (though Ketara is more then slick enough to point out the possibility of the SNiper Squad surviving the blast in which case you might still have some Lance options on the board whereas the Ravager would be dead and gone). I would suggest a Sniper Boat's functionality needs to be assessed versus the local meta-game. In my local play environment I find them to be less useful then an additional gunboat or Wyche squad. I do play a lot of Horde and Daemon lists though. You might be well served by just contemplating what types of armies your friends field when figuring out what could be more useful to you.

**Ketara**

You raise some excellent points regarding the Sniper Boat, which is why I only suggested running two of them, The way I've always seen it is this:-

Pros

-Counts as a scoring unit, which is always handy
-20 points less(never scorn a saving-penny a day, and all that)
-Frees up a Hvy Support choice for another Ravager Configuration, which is always a major consideration with Dark Eldar
-As said before, even the destruction of the Raider does not mean the annihilation of the unit.

Cons
-One less Dark Lance
-Decreased Mobility for the unit.
-Less Armor on the vehicle
-More Kill point eggs in one basket

The way I see it, is as an extension of the Dark Eldar philosophy. You sacrifice a little extra armor for additional tactical flexibility. I won't say there's a loss of firepower, as you take three ravagers regardless.

Something I'm currently experimenting with is the use of Sniper Gunboats, and the Vect build for Ravagers(two disentegrators, one dark lance). I'll explain my reasoning and results thus far.

In 5th Edition, transports are the new currency. Pretty much any competitive army you will face will run transports of some kind or another. Not only that, but a large number of them completely mech armies, which means they pack heavy tanks on top of the transports. This is difficult for Dark Eldar to match up against, as if you focus on the transports to limit their mobility, their tanks rip you a new one, and if you focus on the tanks, you sacrifice the advantage of greater maneovreability on the field.

When you face a mech army, if you use both sniper boats, and the Vect build, you have the optimal configuration to defeat mech lists. The Sniper Boats can deal with the tanks, as they are purely dedicated to killing them, whilst the Ravagers now have greater efficency at busting transports. They could do it before, with their strength 7 disentegrator, but throwing one away for a dark lance gives them the ability to multi-task, and allows you to comfortably face an all mech army. Not only that, even if the opponent isn't running an all mech army, you lose nothing in the way of tactical flexibility despite being configured to beat a mech list.

Hence, so far, I've foudn this is the best way to play competitively for Dark Eldar. Don't sacrifice all your gunboats for sniperboats, but the addition of a few+some ravager reconfiguration gives you a mass anti-mech capability that the Dark Eldar was lacking slightly. You lose nothing in the way of flexibility, and gain a lot of advantage in certain matchups.

But as Thor said, if your local metagame is a footslogging horde, it may not be the best option for you.
I configure all my lists for optimum tournament effectiveness, but on a local level, that may not be best for you.

**Thor665**

Ketara wrote:
Pros

-Counts as a scoring unit, which is always handy

A reasonable point though I would note that so does the Gunboat you'd otherwise run...but then again I invited the Ravager to Sniper Boat comparison so mea culpa.

-20 points less(never scorn a saving-penny a day, and all that)

Am I off? I've got a 3 Lance Ravager plus NS as 125 (Vect 135) vs. a mini Sniper Gunboat w. NS as 120.

Cons
-Decreased Mobility for the unit.

This is the one that very much scares me. Then again, I suppose if I am comfortable occasionally running Sniper Squads I have no business griping about this. I just begrudge a Raider that you don't always want to move.

A very interesting mini tactica and pro-Vect discussion for 5th

This is very cool. I have continued to be a fan of the Vect for similar reasons as you've described (I just use Lances on Raiders and sniper squads instead of Sniper Gunboats). I will agree from an ultimate efficiency standpoint the Vect does suffer versus the other two Ravager builds, but in tourney play the increased adaptability and options presented are quite valuable. I certainly agree the Vect is built for light vehicle/troop hunting and Raiders are built to pop tanks/assasinate MCs.

As a question, are there any armies you find it more functional to play against by deploying the two units separately as a mini-Sniper and Raider (which is how I usually use the unit). If you don't like the separation could you offer any insight as to why?

**Ketara**

With regards to the points cost vs the Ravager, I usually have 3 disentegartors and a night shield, so I'm used to calculating a ravager as 140 points. My mistake.

As you've said with regards to mobility, the basic sniper squad does no move either. Consider it this way.

On one hand, you have the sniper squad. Two dark lances, 10 wounds out in the open, can only move so far per turn.

All I'm doing is substituting it with a slightly different sniper squad. This one has two dark lances, and replaces 5 of those wounds to protect the squad with armour 10. However, this new sniper squad is capable of zooming across the battlefield at the last second to claim objectives.

From my point of view, sacrificing the 5 wounds for armour, and the ability to make a madcap dash across the battlefield is well worth the trade off. In 4th edition, I would have gone witht he sniper squad, but with the new importance of holding objectives in 5th means that the Sniper Boat is now the more viable of the pair.

As to the compairosn you've just offered, on one hand, we have two sniper boats, and on the other, a super-gunboat, and a mini-sniper squad.

The two sniper boats have a combined firepower of 4 dark lances, and 8 splinter rifles, compared to the other combinations 2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters, 2 Dark Lances, and 10 splinter rifles.

Now if one were to take ravagers with dark lances, the sniper boat build is not really required. The Ravagers are far more efficent than them. However, I find that the anti-infantry fire offered by a triple disentegrator(or vect) build, is unequaled by anything else the Dark Eldar list can offer. It really boils down to t his simple equation.

Ravagers can be amazing at anti-tank, or anti-infantry.
Your troops can be amazing at anti-tank, or alright at anti-infantry.

Logically, the most efficent thing to do would be to dedicate your troops to killing tanks, and your heavy support to massacring infantry. Therefore, it follows that the more mech you expect to face, the more of your troops that you must dedicate to killing tanks.

So in answer to your question, against a Tyranid horde, or a footslogger Ork/Guard Army, I would divide it into a super-gunboat and sniper squad. However, if I was expecting to face any large number of tanks, I would take two sniper gunboats. This is because tanks tend to carry the heavier weapons capable of downing large numebrs of my troops, and as such, are my top priority for elimination. Not only that, the more tanks my foe has, the less infantry I am to expect, and hence, the splinter cannon becomes worth less.

The way I see it, the Dark Eldar have the largest amount of concentrated kill power in any army. Therefore, if you calculate your odds of facing each type of enemy, you can build the optimal list for the situation.

In the case of the above army list, I suggest 3 Ravagers in the Vect build so to be capable of popping light tanks and butchering infantry, two sniper gunboats for dedicated anti-tank, two mini sniper squads grouped together to make another anti-tank unit, and two super-gunboats to concentrate on anti-infantry(with the raiders focusing on anti-tank).

This gives 6 disintegrators, 3 Dark Lances. 4 Splinter Cannons, and 4 Blasters dedicated to popping transport and killing infantry, and 8 Dark Lances for dedicated anti-vehicle. This is of course, ignoring the additional tank popping power of the wyches raider, and reaver blade, and the additional anti-infantry power of the Lord and Wyches.

If you synchronise it just rightyou have enough power to level any unit, enough maneovrability to reform in a single turn, AND the ability to grab and contest objectives at the last second! As objectives account for 2 in every 3 missions in 5th, it would be foolhardy not to make extra provision for them!

That is my view on the army in 5th edition these days anyway. Wych armies don't work so well any more, due to the fact you have to leave lightly armoured units to hold objectives, and fully shooty armies aren't capable of clearing objectives quickly enough all the time. The most efficent way to play is to combine both aspects.

**radiohazard**

Ketara is correct Wych armies do not work. Not in 5th anyway.

IMHO I don't rate Sniper Boats as high as Super Gunboats. In the army list I run, I theorise that infantry are going to be a pain to kill. The humble Splinter Rifle is not much better than the lasgun. Lack of numbers coupled with a lack of strength is not as good as 50+ infantry with lasguns. But Dark Eldar have never been all that good of getting rid of infantry. The afore mentioned Splinter Rifle and Splinter Cannon are really the only good anti infantry options open to Warrior and Raider squads. This is why I've taken 3 super gunboats as these guys will be needed to stop opposing hordes and small elite units from taking objectives.

You can have as many Dark Lance as you want in 1500 points, you'll still need the basic weapons to bring down griblies.

**Ketara**

The downside with the splinter cannon, is that it is relatively useless against MEQ's, who comprise 60% of all armies. You can pour 8 Splinter cannon shots into them, but odds are, only 6 of those will hit, only 3 of those will wound, and only 1 shot will kill. Even if you incorporate the rifles, the odds hardly increase. The blasters are not worth considering in anti-infantry, as generally, if you're within 12" of enemy infantry with armour 10, it's a dead unit anyway. A poor exchange for a 110 point investment per turn.

As I said though, it's a case of the right tool for the right job, as opposed to rating one higher than the other. In 5th Edition, mech is the problem, and a small dose ofsniper boats solve that issue. If though, you are dealing with hordes, forgo it in favour of the super gunboat.

Remember however, I'm not advocating you only take one or the other. I think the most efficent thing to do is have a mix of the pair in order to give the greatest tactical flexibility. Simply taking many multiples of one unit tends to limit one's choices on the battlefield I've found.

**Thor665**

radiohazard wrote:Ketara is correct Wych armies do not work. Not in 5th anyway.

Definitely agreed, as I've said in my tactica I never liked Wyche Cult armies in 5th.

Wyche squads I shall continue to worship.

Ketara wrote:Remember however, I'm not advocating you only take one or the other. I think the most efficent thing to do is have a mix of the pair in order to give the greatest tactical flexibility. Simply taking many multiples of one unit tends to limit one's choices on the battlefield I've found.

I shall quote the above text in order to re-authenticate its veracity.

Insightful views otherwise. For me, I feel you're downplaying the possibilities of cover and up-playing 10 AV - but you have at least sold me on the "they're a sniper squad that can move fast if they need to" argument. I might need to at least float in one or two next time I play and see how they affect me.

**Quintinus**

You get an A from me for the Ravagers.

People who say that you will have trouble with hordes have obviously never faced 6 BS4 plasma cannon shots a turn...with no overheating.

If you could figure out some way to give the final Ravager some Disintegrators on the final Ravager, you get an A+.

Even a 180 Ork mob starts to sweat when it's taking 9 BS4 plasma cannon blasts a turn.

In all, Dark Eldar are an awesome army.

**radiohazard**

Vladsimpaler wrote:You get an A from me for the Ravagers.

People who say that you will have trouble with hordes have obviously never faced 6 BS4 plasma cannon shots a turn...with no overheating.

If you could figure out some way to give the final Ravager some Disintegrators on the final Ravager, you get an A+.

Even a 180 Ork mob starts to sweat when it's taking 9 BS4 plasma cannon blasts a turn.

In all, Dark Eldar are an awesome army.

I'm thinking of dropping a wych squad to up the 3rd Ravager to 3 Dissys and take a small Reaver Bike Squadron.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm definately not convinced on the Sniper Boat BTW.

**Thor665**

By the time you start getting into minor specifics like that it really starts to become a matter of degrees.

You're losing a Wyche Squad (2 Blasters and an Agoniser), A Raider, and a 3 Lance Ravager.

You're gaining a RJB Squad (I presume 2 Blasters) and a 3 Dissie Ravager.

You're giving up a counter assault/tarpit unit and a potent anti-tank fast skimmer for a fast anti-tank bike squad and a potent anti-infantry fast skimmer.

Now, I'll be the first to admit you seem to be sitting on a lot of lances in this build, but I'm not sure giving up 4 Lances and a vehicle is worth the gain of 3 dissies. If you're planning on putting your Lord on a RJB then I'd advocate getting the bikers. However, running solo they can be fairly pricey and fragile. You could just drop one additional Wyche from each squad and upgrade your Ravager to a full Dissy spread. Six Wyches can still tarpit and Agoniser squads to death fairly well, especially if you shoot them up first or have the Lord running with one of the squads.

Though as I stated right at the beginning of this post, it's matters of degree. The RJBs can be quite useful as harassers/distraction/bait and can usually alpha strike a vehicle if you need them to (they just usually die shortly thereafter).

**radiohazard**

This is the final tweeked list I've put together. I dropped a blaster from each Uber Gunboat squad to fit in the dissy Ravager. This hasn't dropped the shootiness all that much and Ive still managed to keep the Wych squads which (no pun intended) are pretty damn good at killing stuff thanks to the Agonisers - Thanks Thor.

HQ

Lord Puscifer (Archon) = 142
Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, Plasma Grenades, Hell Mask.

Elites

7 Wyches including Succubus = 129
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters, Agoniser.
Raider = 55

7 Wyches including Succubus = 129
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters, Agoniser.
Raider = 55

Troops

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 105
2 Splinter Cannons, 1 Blaster.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 105
2 Splinter Cannons, 1 Blaster.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 105
2 Splinter Cannons, 1 Blaster.

Heavy Support

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

1500 Points.

**Thor665**

No thanks needed - though you will be honor bound to report how some of your initial outings treat you.

Best of luck collecting souls for Commorragh.