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Just some thoughts I had while entering AB data for the new SW codex;

HQs

Wolf Lord / Marine Captain;

Basic guy:

If we buy the Wolf Lord a Belt, then he's 25 points more, for +1 attack - with otherwise identical gear and stats. Prices on most equipment is the same, although the Wolf Lord pays double for a Storm Shield if he wants one, but can forgoe the belt, so the price for a SS Lord is only 15 more than the Captain - again with only +1 attack as the difference.

In Terminator Armour, the Wolf Lord and Captain are again separated by the 25 points for a 4+ inv save, or between 5 and 15 for a Storm Shield, depending what other weapon they're given.

Considering an attack has, in multiple codexes in the past, cost 15 points outright, it appears that the Storm Shield is the better buy than the Belt of Russ, even though it is slightly more expensive.


Librarians/Rune Priests:
Same price for Power Armor, with identical stats. Rune Priest has a better weapon and psychic defense, and arguably better powers. He's also got a better selection of options. In terminator armor, the rune priest is cheaper by 10 points. The Librarian has the option for a Storm Shield that the Rune Priest doesn't, but the Rune Priest has more options overall.


Wolf Priest/Chaplain:
In Power armour, the basic models are nearly identical, although I think Oath of War is slightly better than Litanies of Battle. Marines end up paying more if they want to get a combi-weapon, and the Wolf guy, again, has more overall options.

In Terminator Armour, the Wolf Priest is 10 points cheaper, and, again, has more other options.


Troops
The marines pay 20 points more for a full tac squad compared to a full Grey Hunter pack. For these 20 points, they get a Sgt w/ Ld9. Tacs get a heavy, while Hunters get a special at ten men. One hunter can take a CC weapon, as can the sgt. Hunters have an extra attack, except if they take a powerfist, and counter charge as well.


Elites

75 points gets you 5 scouts, either way. SW scouts have extra special rules, more special weapon options, higher WS,BS,Ld, and A. Marine scouts, however, are scoring, and can take a hellfire round HB and Camo Cloaks.

Dreadnoughts/Ven Dreads:
Most options cost the same. SW get a 10 point discount on an Assault Cannon, and can take some extra upgrades though.

Wolf Guard Terminators/Terminators:

Wolf guard are easily more configurable. However, this comes at a steep price. 5 TH/SS Wolf Guard cost 115 points more than the Marine Equivalent. The classic marine terminator squad (1 chainfist, 1 assault cannon, 1 sgt), is only 5 points cheaper for the marines though. In general, CC-options are more expensive for the Wolf Guard. The more cheap (PW/SB) guys they keep, the better off they are. Assault Terminator squads, while limited in option, are a much better value for points.


Fast Attack
Land Speeders are identical.

Skyclaws have a 10-point discount over 10 models, before any upgrades are considered. They're down 1 WS/BS/Ld for those 10 points, but get twice the bonus attacks on the charge.

Bikes are too different to do a direct comparison.

Heavy
Predator, Vindicator, Whirlwind are all identical
Land Raiders are mostly the same, except the base Land Raider, which has a 2-greater capacity for Marines. (Odd)

Real comparison here is Devs/Long Fangs
A squad of 5 (incl sgt) favors the Wolves for Lascannons and Heavy Bolters, favors the marines for MM, Plasma Cannon, and Missile Launchers. (in each case, it's a 10-point swing either way). Long Fangs can split fire, Devastators get one guy shooting at BS5 though.


How does this compare over a 1500 list?

Taking a Terminator Chaplain, 5 terminators, 3 tac squads, a dread, a scout unit, a dev squad, and an assault squad, the differences end up netting the wolves over 100 points - enough to get 5 extra jumppackers, and add a few extra upgrades to important models. This, with general added efficiency for most units as well.

I think something is off...

Wolf Lord vs. Chapter Master makes more sense.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader vs. Captain makes more sense.

Pychers: both are tool box characters, though Vanilla Libby has power that are better in combat.

Chappy/Wolf Priest: I wouldn't say better, just different.
Priest is more limited but persistant Rerolls, Chappy is dependent on charge, but doesn't discriminate.

Tac squads are tactical.
Grey hunters are close range brawlers.
Why no bloodclaws?

Sanctjud wrote:
Wolf Lord vs. Chapter Master makes more sense.

No it doesn't. A captain and a master are identical except for the 25 point bombardment. Wolves cannot get one of those at all. The more similar you make them, the easier the comparison. So stick to a captain and it's a better comparison in the game, even if not in the fluff.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader vs. Captain makes more sense.

Their statlines are very different. Makes for a difficult comparison.

Pychers: both are tool box characters, though Vanilla Libby has power that are better in combat.

I'd go as far as to say that, in either of these codexes, getting your libby in combat is a bad idea. Look, they have 2 attacks, an uninspired I4, and only 2 wounds without an Inv save or eternal warrior, meaning they're smoked by any powerfist most of the time. Most of their good powers are used outside of combat.

Tac squads are tactical.
Grey hunters are close range brawlers.

That's true - they're slightly different in overall use, but they're the closest troop comparison possible.

Why no bloodclaws?

Again, because in comparing two things, you want to get as close as possible. Marines don't have anything that compares to Bloodclaws really - power-armoured scouts with 4 attacks on the charge? No such Space Marine.

It's why I didn't bother comparing sternguard to wolfguard (no similarities, they're just different units), or attack bikes to thunderwolf cavalry.

Awesome comparison. Thank you very much for the effort, it not only really helps me draw some interesting comparisons but (shudder) has me reconsidering some thoughts on Skyclaws (though Russ is quite clear on his opinions of this I feel)

Edit: On the long fangs, I had made a mistake in the data file.

4 Long Fangs + leader/4 Devastators + Sgt:

Heavy Bolter: 95/150 (55 point difference)
Missile Launchers: 115/150 (35 point difference)
Multimelta: 115/150 (35 point difference)
Plasma Cannon: 155/190 (35 point difference)
Lascannons: 175/230 (55 point difference)

Space Wolves really get the advantage here - so much so that Long Fangs get a free transport due to the savings - and that doesn't even count the counter-attack, or ability to split fire. Of course, they're limited to a squad with no extra wounds, so every hit you take will drop an expensive heavy-weapon bearer.

Redbeard wrote:... Of course, they're limited to a squad with no extra wounds, so every hit you take will drop an expensive heavy-weapon bearer.

?I can add 1 extra wound/model for 18pts ... add a Wolf guard

Also Wolf Guard shine for bring Heavy weapons to alot of the units .... I'm thinking of taking ten, 2 upgraded to terminators with Cyclone-ML. Then split them off and add them to grey hunter packs (or Long fangs). Hay presto each unit now has (the equivalent) to, 2 missile launch that can move and shoot. (rest of the wolf Guard pack are thrown in a transport as a dedicated CC unit ... combi-meltas might be nice on 2-3)

Tri wrote:Also Wolf Guard shine for bring Heavy weapons to alot of the units .... I'm thinking of taking ten, 2 upgraded to terminators with Cyclone-ML. Then split them off and add them to grey hunter packs (or Long fangs). Hay presto each unit now has (the equivalent) to, 2 missile launch that can move and shoot. (rest of the wolf Guard pack are thrown in a transport as a dedicated CC unit ... combi-meltas might be nice on 2-3)

I'm thinking of doing the same thing in my SW list, albiet taking 5 WG, sticking the cyclone in with my Long Fangs, and adding Grimnar to the remaining 4 in their drop pod. Tri or Redbeard, how would you equip the remaining 4 WG? I did TH, WC w/ MotW, Frost Blade, and combi-melta/TH, but I don't have any experience with wolves and have been wondering if I should have less variety and more consistency.

Why do people always forget about combat squads when making comparrisons.

Suddenly an SM force can go from 6 to 12 scoring units, while wolves are always stuck with what ever they initally bring.

SM devistators can split fire too. Just combat squad them out but keep them close together. Its the better option for split fire because they can see what their first two heavies do before shooting the next two. The SW player has to choose his targets before any dice are rolled. Also if half the squad runs off the table, you still have the other half to stay and shoot. For the wolf player its all or nothing.

Anyone who thinks that combat squads is a stupid ability or not as equally usable as counter charge is really missing out on one of the more powerful aspect of the SM game plan as long as you play to your strengths.

Seriously, what good is counter charge against a Tau opponent?

You're right on all those points. Is the ability to combat-squad worth an average of 40 points per unit though?

While they do have to pick their targets first, they seem stupidly cheap.

As for wolf guard, I think that they need to play differently than tac marines. (Duh.) They're better at rhino rushing or drop podding (2 specials, cheaper, better in assault), while Tacs are better at long-range shooting, hunkering down, etc. Having different strengths is cool. I just think that the wolves are getting their strength cheaper, and it's no-less effective as a strength.

Gavin Thorne wrote:

Tri wrote:Also Wolf Guard shine for bring Heavy weapons to alot of the units .... I'm thinking of taking ten, 2 upgraded to terminators with Cyclone-ML. Then split them off and add them to grey hunter packs (or Long fangs). Hay presto each unit now has (the equivalent) to, 2 missile launch that can move and shoot. (rest of the wolf Guard pack are thrown in a transport as a dedicated CC unit ... combi-meltas might be nice on 2-3)

I'm thinking of doing the same thing in my SW list, albiet taking 5 WG, sticking the cyclone in with my Long Fangs, and adding Grimnar to the remaining 4 in their drop pod. Tri or Redbeard, how would you equip the remaining 4 WG? I did TH, WC w/ MotW, Frost Blade, and combi-melta/TH, but I don't have any experience with wolves and have been wondering if I should have less variety and more consistency.

My trial list 1500pts (note * is a moved wolf guard)
(HQ)WGBL + frostblade
(E)WolfGuard 5(10) + 2x TA + 2xCML + Razorback (might become a pod)
(E)IronPriest + 4x Cyberwolves + Thunderwolf
(E)LoneWolf + frostblade + 2x wolves
(T)2x Greyhunter 8 + Meltagun + Drop pod *WG&TA&CML
(T)BloodClaw 8 + flamer + DP *(optional WG)
(H)3x LongFang 6 + 5x missile launcher *WG

Depending on who I'm facing My WGBL ether travels in the razorback with the WG or sits in the DP with the BC. Grey hunter pod in first turn and take up forward positions and/or start the assault

Now if i was taking Grimnar this would be a very different list. first i don't think he should be taken in games less the 2000pts. Next there is nearly no point in taking Grey Hunters or Blood Claw at all, take as many Wolf guard as you can. They are your troop and heavy weapons.

I think the new SW codex is a step in the right direction for bringing Marines back to where they need to be. Phil has done an excellent job again. The points comparison is quite revealing. Thanks for taking the time to put it all together.

G

Y'know, Grey Hunters cost less than Tactical Marines because they're worse-- Tactical Marines are harder to kill, have better options, and get Sergeants without having to expend an Elite slot and lose their second weapon upgrade.

Skyclaws are also significantly worse than Assault Marines. The 10 extra points that the Assault Marines spend grants them a Sergeant with an extra attack and Leadership 9, which is highly prized in an assault unit. Further, the Skyclaw bonus charge attack is actually not an advantage, as it comes at the cost of the bolt pistol shot that Assault Marines get before their charge-- a shot which strikes at initiative infinity, hits on a 3+ instead of a 4+, and has an AP value.

Long Fangs and Devs are not a very good comparison, because though the units are superficially similar, their strengths and weaknesses don't align very well. Long Fangs can get their weapons for significantly cheaper but are much more vulnerable, where Devastators pay a premium for their weapons but are far harder to kill or cripple.

Fetterkey wrote:Further, the Skyclaw bonus charge attack is actually not an advantage, as it comes at the cost of the bolt pistol shot that Assault Marines get before their charge-- a shot which strikes at initiative infinity, hits on a 3+ instead of a 4+, and has an AP value.

I would rather get more attacks in close combat than in shooting because usually the unit that was charged is destroyed when it is sweeping advanced or forced to make fearless wounds. "a shot at iniative infinity" means nothing if the skyclaws hit first anyway. It's not a huge difference, but skyclaws kill more orks in close combat which results in more dead orks when the combat has been resolved.

Fetterkey wrote:Y'know, Grey Hunters cost less than Tactical Marines because they're worse-- Tactical Marines are harder to kill, have better options, and get Sergeants without having to expend an Elite slot and lose their second weapon upgrade.

Incorrect. They do not have better options, they have different options. If you're drop-podding in, do you want a heavy weapon, or an extra special that can fire the turn you land? If you're advancing in your rhino, do you want a heavy weapon that does nothing, or a second special weapon that can fire out the hatch on the move, or the turn you disembark.

Different, not better.

Also, while you're right, the Marines get a Sgt w/ Ld 9, I don't really think this is a big deal in the way that the unit of Grey Hunters is likely to be used.

A unit of Tac Marines might very well camp an objective and fire a lascannon all game. Avoiding the chance that you fall back off that objective (or off the table) means the Ld 9 is useful here. But, again, Grey Hunters aren't going to do that. The biggest risk of their Ld8 is that they'll be pinned if their rhino blows up. With ATSKNF, if you're not at the edge of the table, falling back isn't a big deal. As for losing combats - I think that extra dot of Ld is rather irrelevant. Again, ATSKNF avoids the really negative issues of failing.

Exactly how are Tactical marines harder to kill though?

Skyclaws are also significantly worse than Assault Marines. The 10 extra points that the Assault Marines spend grants them a Sergeant with an extra attack and Leadership 9, which is highly prized in an assault unit.

I don't buy this. Why is Ld 9 important in an assault unit that has ATSKNF?

Further, the Skyclaw bonus charge attack is actually not an advantage, as it comes at the cost of the bolt pistol shot that Assault Marines get before their charge-- a shot which strikes at initiative infinity, hits on a 3+ instead of a 4+, and has an AP value.

As Zaephyr mentions, a kill in CC is more valuable than a kill in shooting. Bolt pistol shots don't count towards combat res. And, those bolt pistol shots can deprive you of a charge. I can't count the number of games I've played where I've either forgone pre-combat shots in order to ensure the charge, or had an opponent kill one model, only to be left out of charge range, allowing me to charge him instead.

Let's not discount that SW get counter charge across the board. Not a big deal except when you look at thier reduced LD. Getting the +1 A is great IF you can make the test

Here are my thoughts:

Grey Hunters versus Tactical Marines:

Tactical Marines are really meant to be played more conservatively then Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters are a great front line unit where the special weapons can come in handy, but a good opponent can capitalize on the fact that they are front line units. In order for the Grey Hunters to be effective, they need to get close. Their lower leadership, the ease to kill Rhinos in MM range, means that they need a lot more support the Tacticals who can camp on or slowly work their way to their objective.

Tactical Squads are much better at being flexible in a game too, they can combat squad, have cheap heavy weapons, and higher leadership to stay put. Now whether that justifies the slightly higher points cost is debatable.

It's kind of like debating the difference between an offensive and defensive line in Football, they may contain players, but have very different roles.


Skyclaws versus Assault Marines:

I really think in the long run Assault Marines will win out. Sure the Skyclaws are extremely cheap and a good buy in the Space Wolf codex, but the Assault Marines extra leadership and extra Special Weapon at 10 pays off. ATSKNF is a great ability but for a unt that has to get across the table, running back 3D6 at anytime is too much of a determent, that is what makes leadership matter. Now granted, you can ofset with a character or Wolf Guard in the SW codex, but on a strickly unit per unit basis my money is on Assault Marines.

Of course, my opinion of Assault Marines in take all comers tournament play has greatly diminished since IG could bring PBSs and Colussus.


Overall, playtesting with and against Space Wolf players against my Marine lists, and the one advantage the SM player has on the whole is the units we have that SW don't. Space Wolves one fundamental weakness is they have to get across the table. And before you mention it, Drop Pods are not the answer for Space Wolves because they are too easy to react to.

This past Saturday I played a 1500 point list against a Space Wolf player, and the inclusion of things like Thunderfire Cannons, Devestators, Lascannons in my Tactical Squads, Attack Bike Squadrons, and Shooty Terminators really punished his mechanized Assault. The game almost ended in a tie, but I lost due to the fact that I couldn't not kill his Lone Wolves in a Kill Point mission.

Space Wolves are neat, but their list is so different from what Codex SMs have that it is really hard to compare considering the access to units and abilities. I do agree that if you where building similar lists, the SW looks to have the advantage (and I have given up Mechanized Assault based Marines because of it), but Space Marines still have several advantages that the SW are missing. There is a lot of untapped potential in the Space Marine Codex because too many people have gone gaga over Vulkan lists and Thunderhammer/Storm Shield Terminators.

Redbeard wrote:As Zaephyr mentions, a kill in CC is more valuable than a kill in shooting. Bolt pistol shots don't count towards combat res. And, those bolt pistol shots can deprive you of a charge. I can't count the number of games I've played where I've either forgone pre-combat shots in order to ensure the charge, or had an opponent kill one model, only to be left out of charge range, allowing me to charge him instead.

False. A kill in shooting is more valuable than a kill in CC against enemies with equal or higher Initiative, and generally better in other cases as well-- against Orks or IG, for example, 3+ to hit and no saves is obviously better than 4+ to hit and saves allowed! True, bolt pistol shots don't count towards combat resolution, but that's actually a good thing-- it means that you're less likely to break the opponent in one go, which is obviously undesirable. As for losing the charge, that's more based on whether or not you can use your units with sufficient finesse. If you move and fire correctly, it shouldn't be a problem.

Redbeard wrote:Why is Ld 9 important in an assault unit that has ATSKNF?

So that you don't get shot and run off the board? Leadership is much more important on bikes and jump packers than it is on normal troops, as they have 3d6" fallback and are much more vulnerable to being shot off the edges, or even just escorted off the table by a Rhino.

Redbeard wrote:Exactly how are Tactical marines harder to kill though?

Tactical Marines have increased Leadership, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics.

I think it to be useful to clarify that, Leadership, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics affect the survivability indirectly, and everyone else is concerned with the base MEQ status of each.

Sanctjud wrote:I think it to be useful to clarify that, Leadership, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics affect the survivability indirectly, and everyone else is concerned with the base MEQ status of each.

Indirect survivability is still survivability.

If you're that desperate for LD9 you can take a wolf guard in most squads. Hell taking a wolf guard will also let you shoot those pistols.

And take a powerfist and combi-flamer. Except that wolf-guard can't join the BC Jump-pack units (unless GW says so in an errata).

Wolf Guard can be taken for Grey Hunters only if you're willing to forfeit your second special weapon, and can't be taken at all for Skyclaw Packs-- further, they take an extra slot to use. Though it's an option, it's not a particularly appealing one, except in the case of Grey Hunter Razorback squads.

dietrich wrote:And take a powerfist and combi-flamer. Except that wolf-guard can't join the BC Jump-pack units (unless GW says so in an errata).

All most definitely. Other wise how can they ever use a flamer? or how about a melta at half range? Even the plasma pistol at 12" is going to be tricky to use.

They almost never can-- that's part of the reason why Skyclaws are so bad! However, the Wolf Guard wouldn't exactly be a good option for them even if it did get errata'd in. A basic Wolf Guard with jump pack costs an outrageous 43 points-- more than an Assault Terminator! Further, you run into that whole issue with using FOC slots to get upgrades that normal Marines get automatically. Skyclaws really don't stand up to normal Assault Marines.

I am of the opinion that in Tournaments, the only way to get any Jump Pack trooper to work is to take a chaplain and/or Wolf Priest. So that is something to consider as well.

People have a negative reaction towards Fearless, but it suddenly matters with Weaken Resolve is targeted your way.

Of course, I don't think Assault Marines are a top competitive choice regardless.

For only a few points more, I think the Bikers are better than the jump-troops. YMMV. When the codex came out, and they had cheap jump-troops, I was doing the happy dance. Now that I look at them more, I like them a lot less.

Unless you're playing Planetstrike, and then they become somewhat useful.

Fetterkey wrote:
False. A kill in shooting is more valuable than a kill in CC against enemies with equal or higher Initiative, and generally better in other cases as well-- against Orks or IG, for example, 3+ to hit and no saves is obviously better than 4+ to hit and saves allowed!

I disagree. Against orks, the fact that my wounds count towards combat res actually ends up killing addtional models due to their fearlessness. Against orks, what hurts is the lower WS, meaning they hit back more. But even there, I think the numbers favor the skyclaws.

Assault marines, shooting first, would get 3.33 kills, and then charge for 5.6 more. 20 orks would swing back, inflicting 3.33 wounds, and powerfists/claws trade for 1.25 more on each side. Assault marines win combat by 1.3, yielding 1 more dead boy. Total to Assault marines: 11.25
Skyclaws, just charging, would get 7.5 kills. Orks kill 3.56 in return. Skyclaw PF adds 1.25, Nob's Powerklaw hits for 1.66. Skyclaws win this by 4.5, and combat res inflicts another 3.7 on the boyz. Total to skyclaws: 12.5

The combat res wounds end up doing more damage than the bolt pistol shots, especially against orks with the t-shirt saves. Difference is that you probably lose one more (.64) skyclaw in the assault.

As for losing the charge, that's more based on whether or not you can use your units with sufficient finesse. If you move and fire correctly, it shouldn't be a problem.

That's one of the stupider things I've heard. 'Move and fire correctly?' It's an assault unit. Move as far as possible towards enemy on the turn you plan to charge. Sometimes that means that you're 6" from them that turn. That doesn't mean you didn't move correctly, it's just how it works out sometimes.

Redbeard wrote:Why is Ld 9 important in an assault unit that has ATSKNF?

So that you don't get shot and run off the board? Leadership is much more important on bikes and jump packers than it is on normal troops, as they have 3d6" fallback and are much more vulnerable to being shot off the edges, or even just escorted off the table by a Rhino.

Well, if you're playing with finesse, you're screening your assault troops with rhinos until the turn they charge, so that shouldn't be an issue

Redbeard wrote:Exactly how are Tactical marines harder to kill though?

Tactical Marines have increased Leadership, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics.

I'll give GW credit. SWs doesn't play like a SM 'with bonuses' type of army, which it typically did in the past. They were pretty much SMs, but seemed to do nearly everything a little better. SWs are pretty significantly divergent now. You can't just port your SM to SW or vice versa and have an effective (or in many cases, legal) build.

Possibly. I think a mix of rhinos and pods could do well. Drop in two pods, early on, to take out high priority threats and create a nearby problem that the opponent has to react to. Keep one pod in reserve to drop in near an objective later in the game. Meanwhile, the other squads are in rhinos, and have a bit more opportunity to do stuff since the pods have, ideally, neutralized some of the shooting that would be directed at the rhinos.

This is all theoretical but if I see a Space Wolf Army with Drop Pods versus any of my Marine lists, I am playing the reactionary game. Mainly meaning holding things in reserve and counter attacking.

The Space Wolves really only have two units that are "scary" in Pods. Dreads and Terminators. Dreads are easy to handle, but the Terminators can get a little scary, however, Space Marines have the answer to them in Thunderhammer / Storm Shield Terminators and a Librarian with Null Zone. Plus they will always be a small squad size because of the DPs smaller capacity.

And the Marines have enough move and shoot to compensate for coming in piece meal.

The real meat and potatoes of the Space Wolf list are in things that have to cross the board, Land Raiders, Lone Wolves, Thunderwolf Calvary, Grey Hunters in Rhinos. All those things can eat up an army list rather quickly, so any decision to bring pods eats away at the rest of the list.

I think this is absolutely correct. The things that the SW can do, they do better than the SM. SM have more flexibility and more overall build possibilities. SW couldn't hope to do something like DarthDiggler's list that he used at 'ard boyz.

Agreed, I have been playing with a list similar to DD's and I am finding it pretty effective. I have about three other list builds in my head right now that I think are unconventional but effective I will be trying out.

If anything, the SW have made the Vulkan list with multiple Assault Terminators in Land Raider a little less standard.

Redbeard wrote:Against orks, the fact that my wounds count towards combat res actually ends up killing addtional models due to their fearlessness. Against orks, what hurts is the lower WS, meaning they hit back more. But even there, I think the numbers favor the skyclaws.

Assault marines, shooting first, would get 3.33 kills, and then charge for 5.6 more. 20 orks would swing back, inflicting 3.33 wounds, and powerfists/claws trade for 1.25 more on each side. Assault marines win combat by 1.3, yielding 1 more dead boy. Total to Assault marines: 11.25
Skyclaws, just charging, would get 7.5 kills. Orks kill 3.56 in return. Skyclaw PF adds 1.25, Nob's Powerklaw hits for 1.66. Skyclaws win this by 4.5, and combat res inflicts another 3.7 on the boyz. Total to skyclaws: 12.5

The combat res wounds end up doing more damage than the bolt pistol shots, especially against orks with the t-shirt saves. Difference is that you probably lose one more (.64) skyclaw in the assault.

While Skyclaws may be slightly better against Orks, depending on how willing you are to lose models, they have distinctly inferior performance against MEQs. 10 Assault Marines shoot bolt pistols for 1.11 kills, then charge for 2.25 more, then get another 1.25 with the Sergeant's fist, for 4.61 kills total, while Skyclaws charge for 3 kills and get another 1.25 with their fist, yielding 4.25 kills total. Tactical Marines not only have slightly more kills, but they take both less and worse retaliation (1.11 guys die from shooting and don't retaliate, those that do hit on 4+ instead of 3+), plus have more staying power-- in later turns of assault, the Assault Squad continues getting slightly more kills than the Skyclaws thanks to the Assault Sergeant's increased base attacks, while also proving more difficult to hit.

Redbeard wrote:

As for losing the charge, that's more based on whether or not you can use your units with sufficient finesse. If you move and fire correctly, it shouldn't be a problem.

That's one of the stupider things I've heard. 'Move and fire correctly?' It's an assault unit. Move as far as possible towards enemy on the turn you plan to charge. Sometimes that means that you're 6" from them that turn. That doesn't mean you didn't move correctly, it's just how it works out sometimes.

Not sure where you're coming from here. The movement phase has tons of finesse and positional precision, and efficient targeting doctrines are critical to 40k.

Redbeard wrote:Well, if you're playing with finesse, you're screening your assault troops with rhinos until the turn they charge, so that shouldn't be an issue

Perhaps, but indirect fire units, outflankers, units with high vantage points, etc. can often target such units regardless. Having a high Leadership is similar to having And They Shall Know No Fear-- ideally, you don't need it at all, but it can save you in a pinch. If my game goes perfectly, I could have Leadership 1 on all my units and not care-- but for those times where everything doesn't go according to plan, having a high Leadership can be very important, especially for units that are likely to be in the thick of the fight.