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Logan Grimnar:

"Such is his skill at command that you may choose one of the following special rules at the beginning of each turn: Fearless, Tank Hunters, Relentless, Preferred Enemy. Logan and any unit he is with have that rule for the duration of that player turn."

Pretty crystal clear, right?

Except now you've got people interpreting is as he can't use it if he's in a drop pod, because he's "not on the table" at the start of the turn.

But, like everything else in the Wolf codex, that's not what it says. The way it is written, essentially, even in the turns the unit is not on the table, they still get the special rule. They're just not on the table to use it. "At the beginning of the turn" clearly just means you can't wait until the assault phase to see if you need Tank Hunters before deciding to use Preferred Enemy.

People seem to be pointing to the way psychic powers work (just like people keep pointing to the template rules for Jaws of the World Wolf), but this is not a psychic power (just like Jaws is not a template). It's a simply worded rule that works the way it works.

There is another train of thought that points to a ruling in the Chaos codex, but we all know FAQs are instance-specific, so that's not helpful, either.

I'm gathering opinions.

As long as you bought Logan, you may use his power.

It doesnt even matter if he is dead, he can stiull choose a power. It has no effect, but he can still choose it....

Beginning of each turn choose Fearless, Tank Hunters, Relentless or Preferred Enemy. You do this before you roll for reserves.

What's more interesting is he picks each turn and it last for the duration of that player turn. Which seems to mean you can pick again on you enemies turn.

It is not tied to the model. So long as he is in your army, you pick a rule.

Tri wrote:Beginning of each turn choose Fearless, Tank Hunters, Relentless or Preferred Enemy. You do this before you roll for reserves.

What's more interesting is he picks each turn and it last for the duration of that player turn. Which seems to mean you can pick again on you enemies turn.

This train of thought is what led to people thinking IG orders could be used in the opponents turn. The thing is, regardless of how you parse the sentence there is an overriding stipulation based on how the game works that you can't do anything in your opponents turn that isn't specifically called out as such. Logan's ability needs a "This can be done at the beginning of both your turn, and your opponents turn" (or something similar) to work as you say.

That won't sway the "Page number or it doesn't count" crowd, but it's how the game works (in my experience). If they include it in the GW FAQ, I predict it to be a your turn only thing for this reason.

Kaaihn wrote:This train of thought is what led to people thinking IG orders could be used in the opponents turn.

No, Orders are tied to a model. This is a ability that is not dependent on him being alive or even on the board. He just has to be in the army.

Oh, you want a Page Number? Page 9 BRB. Turn = Player Turn.

Next!

Gwar! wrote:It is not tied to the model. So long as he is in your army, you pick a rule.

How is it not tied to the model?
The rule is one of Logan's special rules, it applies to him and the unit he is attached to.

If he ain't about then he doesn't get to use the rule unless it specifically states it can be used while in reserve.

Could a deep striking Farseer use Fortune when he is still in reserve?
(assuming Fortune is still used at start of turn, and that Farseers are capable of deep striking)

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It is not tied to the model. So long as he is in your army, you pick a rule.

How is it not tied to the model?
The rule is one of Logan's special rules, it applies to him and the unit he is attached to.

If he ain't about then he doesn't get to use the rule unless it specifically states it can be used while in reserve.

Could a deep striking Farseer use Fortune when he is still in reserve?
(assuming Fortune is still used at start of turn, and that Farseers are capable of deep striking)

I vote that a Farseer can cast fortune and guide on the unit he's with so long as he does it before rolling for reserves.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:Could a deep striking Farseer use Fortune when he is still in reserve?
(assuming Fortune is still used at start of turn, and that Farseers are capable of deep striking)

Xtapl wrote:People seem to be pointing to the way psychic powers work (just like people keep pointing to the template rules for Jaws of the World Wolf), but this is not a psychic power (just like Jaws is not a template).

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:How is it not tied to the model?
The rule is one of Logan's special rules, it applies to him and the unit he is attached to.

No, it doesn't. It says you may Choose a rule. That rule then applies to Logan and whatever unit he is with. Even if Logan is Dead, In Reserves, a Banana or Taking a Dump, the player still picks a rule.

Gwar! wrote:

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:How is it not tied to the model?
The rule is one of Logan's special rules, it applies to him and the unit he is attached to.

No, it doesn't. It says you may Choose a rule. That rule then applies to Logan and whatever unit he is with. Even if Logan is Dead, In Reserves, a Banana or Taking a Dump, the player still picks a rule.

what if logan was ... a squig (edit ...or a chaos spawn)? This is going to happen and it would be good to know if this squig got Fearless, Tank Hunters, Relentless or Preferred Enemy.

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:This train of thought is what led to people thinking IG orders could be used in the opponents turn.

No, Orders are tied to a model. This is a ability that is not dependent on him being alive or even on the board. He just has to be in the army.

Oh, you want a Page Number? Page 9 BRB. Turn = Player Turn.

Next!

Sorry, I should have deleted the first sentence of Tri's quote I suppose. I thought it was so clear what I was referring to that there was no need. I was not in any way referring to the first sentence in the quote. I was entirely referring to the second sentence in the quote, about using the ability in your opponents turn.

The definition of turn is one of the same arguments used to justify IG orders in opponents turn, and the counter hasn't changed. You can't do anything in your opponents turn without explicit permission such as "you may do this in your opponents turn". It's why IG orders don't work in your opponents turn, and why you don't pick a rule from Logan in your opponents turn. Like I said, if it gets included in the FAQ I predict it will say exactly that. You can't use it during your opponents turn.

Is the squig Logan Grimnar, or a squig?

Kaaihn wrote: You can't use it during your opponents turn.

Why? Turn = Player Turn. By not letting me, you are breaking the rules.

Orders require the Model to perform an action, which you cannot do outside of the Assault Phase on your opponents Turn.
Logans Rule does not require him to do anything, the player is making the choice.

kirsanth wrote:Is the squig Logan Grimnar, or a squig?

don't know called zogs curse, poof model becomes a Squig ... I'm looking for my ork codex

The squig has stats even.
(As does the spawn and all replacement models, IIRC)

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote: You can't use it during your opponents turn.

Why? Turn = Player Turn. By not letting me, you are breaking the rules.

In your opinion.

In my opinion (which is equally valid to yours), you are breaking the rules by doing something in my turn without explicit permission. We can just agree to disagree until the GW FAQ comes out and hopefully addresses it.

Kaaihn wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote: You can't use it during your opponents turn.

Why? Turn = Player Turn. By not letting me, you are breaking the rules.

In your opinion.

No, my opinion has nothing to do with it.

Turn = Player Turn. It's on Page 9 BRB. End of Discussion.

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote: You can't use it during your opponents turn.

Why? Turn = Player Turn. By not letting me, you are breaking the rules.

In your opinion.

No, my opinion has nothing to do with it.

Turn = Player Turn. It's on Page 9 BRB. End of Discussion.

LOL. End of discussion in your mind maybe. Hurray for 40K Fundamentalism.

I have not once said that turn does not equal player turn, you can stop dwelling on that. There is no argument on that statement.

The argument is that while the sentence looks to give a permission, it breaks an over-arching rule that you can't do anything in your opponents turn. In a conflict, an action fails without an explicit override to the conflict. In this case, a statement such as "can be used at the beginning of the opponents turn" is needed. As I said, that opinion won't sway the "page number or it doesnt count crowd". Makes perfect sense to others though, even if you personally disagree.

The models arent actually doing anything though - unlike IG orders.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The models arent actually doing anything though - unlike IG orders.

It's not tied to a specific model or 'action'. You, as the player, simply don't get to do anything that impacts the game during your opponents turn unless explicitly allowed to in the rules. Logan's rule does not have that explicit allowance.

Kaaihn wrote:You, as the player, simply don't get to do anything that impacts the game during your opponents turn unless explicitly allowed to in the rules.

Page number Please. I provide them for my argument, do the same for yours.

Please tell me the page number where it states that I can't simply remove someone's models from the table. Its on there.

Excpet you do have permission to do so - the definition of turn as player turn gives you permission to chosoe the rule.

The only rules trhat then have any effect are during the part of your opponents turn you are specifically allowed to perform actions - close combat.

This is entirely, 100% different to IG orders.

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:You, as the player, simply don't get to do anything that impacts the game during your opponents turn unless explicitly allowed to in the rules.

Page number Please. I provide them for my argument, do the same for yours.

Gwar: Please have the courtesy to not intentionally ignore things. I have stated very clearly in this thread that this is not an argument that has a page number to quote and move past.

If you don't agree that this is the way the game functions, that is your opinion. Mine happens to be different; both are equally valid.

Nosferatu: I did say that it gives you permission to do so, that isn't a point of contention. The point of contention is that the definition of a turn based game is that you do nothing in your opponents turn without explicit permission. 40K has repeatedly shown that rules without explicit statements with keywords such as "opponents turn" do not work in your opponents turn. You have permission, you hit a conflict, and don't have an explicit override to that conflict so it fails.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Excpet you do have permission to do so - the definition of turn as player turn gives you permission to chosoe the rule.

The only rules trhat then have any effect are during the part of your opponents turn you are specifically allowed to perform actions - close combat.

This is entirely, 100% different to IG orders.

nosferatu1001 is correct.
Kaaihn is incorrect.

Kaaihn - except as noted the two powers that have any in game effect have an effect in Close Combat - when you ARE explicitly allowed to perform actions out of your own turn.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Excpet you do have permission to do so - the definition of turn as player turn gives you permission to chosoe the rule.

The only rules trhat then have any effect are during the part of your opponents turn you are specifically allowed to perform actions - close combat.

This is entirely, 100% different to IG orders.

nosferatu1001 is correct.
Kaaihn is incorrect.

You two have a different opinion, that's great. Play by it all you want, nobody is stopping you. However, there is nothing incorrect about my opinion that you may not do anything in your opponents turn without explicit permission, and Logan's rule does not grant that. An example of something that does grant explicit permission is the Daemonhunter codex psychic power Word of the Emperor.

This a 40K Fundementalist view versus a view of how the game works in its entirety. I don't expect either of you (based on your past posts) to agree with me. Anyone else coming looking for guidance on rules issues is absolutely entitled to see both arguments though.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It is not tied to the model. So long as he is in your army, you pick a rule.

How is it not tied to the model?
The rule is one of Logan's special rules, it applies to him and the unit he is attached to.

If he ain't about then he doesn't get to use the rule unless it specifically states it can be used while in reserve.

Could a deep striking Farseer use Fortune when he is still in reserve?
(assuming Fortune is still used at start of turn, and that Farseers are capable of deep striking)

What happens when Vulkan dies or is held in Reserve? (I know the answer, but I'm asking to prove a point)

Is awesome.

Well worth 275pts

Does the job of beefy CC character, wolf priest, tank hunter, Troop rallyer, tough-to-kill dude all in one choice. Perhaps a bad things but with some tactics, makes no difference.