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Does the unit he was previously with benefit from the rule if Logan is dead? Or is the argument just that you get to pick one every turn all the time?

RobPro wrote:Does the unit he was previously with benefit from the rule if Logan is dead? Or is the argument just that you get to pick one every turn all the time?

The argument is that you pick one every turn regardless. If he is dead, he cannot be with a Unit, so no-one gets the benefit.

Also, little interesting thing I noticed, once you declare the rule, you can move Logan away and he can do his own thing, but the unit keeps benefiting from the rule until the end of the turn.

Gwar! wrote:

RobPro wrote:Does the unit he was previously with benefit from the rule if Logan is dead? Or is the argument just that you get to pick one every turn all the time?

The argument is that you pick one every turn regardless. If he is dead, he cannot be with a Unit, so no-one gets the benefit.

Also, little interesting thing I noticed, once you declare the rule, you can move Logan away and he can do his own thing, but the unit keeps benefiting from the rule until the end of the turn.

How can the unit retain the special rule if he is no longer with that unit? That is a requirement of that rule.

Also, using your interpretation, Logan could give his special rule to more than one unit in one turn.

imweasel wrote:How can the unit retain the special rule if he is no longer with that unit? That is a requirement of that rule.

Also, using your interpretation, Logan could give his special rule to more than one unit in one turn.

Lol. Please, read the rule before posting.

The rule says "Logan and any Unit he is with [at the start of the turn] benefit from the rule until the end of the player turn". He does not have to stay with the unit at all.

Gwar! wrote:

imweasel wrote:How can the unit retain the special rule if he is no longer with that unit? That is a requirement of that rule.

Also, using your interpretation, Logan could give his special rule to more than one unit in one turn.

Lol. Please, read the rule before posting.

The rule says "Logan and any Unit he is with [at the start of the turn] benefit from the rule until the end of the player turn". He does not have to stay with the unit at all.

Well, sure. As long as you add things to the rule, it can read anything.

Where you get 'at the start of the turn' is beyond me. The only part that 'at the start of the turn' (which is not ever in the rule) is when you choose what rule you want to have 'at the beginning of the turn'.

The line you are re-writing actually reads:

"Logan and any unit he is with have that rule for the duration of the turn."

How you extrapolate that to 'any unit he is with [at the start of the turn] is way out in left field, even for you.

The sentence right before that supports what Gwar is saying.

anticitizen013 wrote:The sentence right before that supports what Gwar is saying.

I don't think it is restricted to the unit he is with at the beginning of the turn. Any unit he is with seems pretty raw to me.

I noticed this the other day. I agree with Gwar! et al.
This means that Logan can pod with a long fangs squad, disembark on the other side of the pod from them, next to your WG Terms, join them, and the still-relentless Long Fangs can shoot stuff and Logan is in great position to use preferred enemy or somesuch on your opponent's turn.

I'm so not looking forward to fighting this

Gwar! wrote:No, it doesn't. It says you may Choose a rule. That rule then applies to Logan and whatever unit he is with. Even if Logan is Dead, In Reserves, a Banana or Taking a Dump, the player still picks a rule.

Oh, I understand you now, but surely it is still a Special Rule that gives you another Special Rule.
If you aren't on the table, then you can't use the first Special Rule?

p.s. On Preferred Enemy, is it Preferred Enemy against anyone in particular or against everyone?
Just wondering is there any occurances of, say, "Preferred Enemy: Thousand Sons".

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:p.s. On Preferred Enemy, is it Preferred Enemy against anyone in particular or against everyone?

It's just preffered enemy, so you re-roll all To Hit rolls in Close Combat.

@imweasel: Protip: Read the whole rule.

As much as I'd like to agree with Gwar! and I can see his interpretation (valid), it seems to me to make more sense that it is whichever unit he is joined to at the time the chosen rule takes effect.
JMHO

The rule says "Logan and any Unit he is with [at the start of the turn] benefit from the rule until the end of the player turn". He does not have to stay with the unit at all.

OK, this is not something I had considered when reading the rule, BUT it does read that way. Lets face it, with WH40K what "common sense" would dictate doesn't really have much to do with it. If in doubt, you read the rules and apply EXACTLY what it says ... not the spirit of what it says.

That said ... I am having difficulty seeing this thing about you getting to choose another "rule" when it is the other players turn. I don't have the codex here so I can't quote it all word for word, but doesn't it say something like "At the beginning of the player's turn, the player can choose one of the below ....... and Logan and the unit he is with benefit from the rule until the end of the player's turn." Surely this refers to the "player's turn" ... as the player who has Logan in his army..... and it ends at the end of his turn. It doesn't say he gets to choose another at the beginning of his opponent's turn.

But having said this, this means that any rule chosen by Logan would NEVER be in operation during the opponents turn .... which doesn't seem right either.

No, it says "At the beginning of each turn".

Turn = Player Turn as per the BRB, so Logans rule actually says "At the beginning of each player turn".

On Mr Logan Grimnar and his special rule choice I see two discussions:

1) Can it be done on the opponents turn?

2) What unit does it affect?


1) We cant do anything on our opponents turn unless we are given permission to do so by the rules, but his rule uses the wording "at the beginning of each turn" and then in the next sentence it says "for the duration of that player turn". Its not using the possessive form, so it actually is talking about both player turns. The term "that player turn" instead of "his turn" shows that they mean on both player's turns.

2) "Logan and any unit he is with have that rule for the duration of the player turn." If we do not add any words to the RAW, then Logan will always have his special rule as will any unit he has joined. Since his rule reads this way tho, if he leaves a unit they will no longer have the rule .... since the RAW tells us "any unit he is with". On the flip side, if he joins a unit they will suddenly get his special rule and be affected by it so long as he reamins in the unit from that point in the game turn on.

Logan doesnt get to pick a unit with his ability, its just whatever unit he is with. The RAW says "any", not the or a, and uses the singular unit, not the plural units. So his ability is tied to Logan and his current singular unit, but which unit it is may change during the turn.

GW didnt include the phrase "Logan and any unit he is with at the start of the turn" so unless they FAQ it to mean that, its not what the RAW currently says.

Sliggoth

Sensible and RAW? Works for me.

But you are ignoring half the rule, the part that says "have that rule for the duration of the player turn". If you say that the (for example) Long Fangs lose it if he moves away, the unit he was with are not following that rule, which very clearly states they "have that rule for the duration of the player turn".

Not ignoring the "have that rule for the duration of the player turn", just saying that its always *Logan and whatever unit he is with* that have the rule for the duration of the player turn. In other words, for the whole turn we apply the chosen special rule to Logan and whatever unit he is with....at the moment. We choose which special rule at the beginning of the turn, but we dont apply the special rule only at the beginning of the turn. We always apply it to Logan and the unit that hes with, because that how Logan's own special rule reads.

The previous sentence tells us that at the beginning of the turn we choose a rule from the list. The next line tells us that Logan and any unit he is with have that rule for the duration of the player turn. So whenever we look for what to apply the chosen rule to, we look for Logan and whatever unit he is with. Not whatever unit he may have been with at some time in the past, but the unit he is with when we are applying his own special rule.

It follows the RAW by following the tense of the rule (is with) and for those who hate RAW and want it to make fluff sense it works there too. Logan gets the chosen special rule because of orders he is giving atm, from his actions right now....so of course it would apply to whatever unit he is with right now, not whatever unit he left behind previously in the turn. Not that RAW and fluff intersect all that often, but its nice to satisfy both camps.

This does mean that Logan can pick a special rule that will be perfectly suited for the unit he is planning on joining during the firing or assault phase, but that also fits with the whole nature of the SW. They dont exactly live in the past, they are definitely live in the now sort of fellows.



Sliggoth

OK, for me, Sliggoth seems to have it correctly (from both a common sense and rule book point of view.)

You DO choose an "ability" for each turn, your and your opponents
Logan needs to stay with the unit if he wants them to keep that ability. If he leaves and goes to another unit ... they get the ability.

Gwar! wrote:

Kaaihn wrote: You can't use it during your opponents turn.

Why? Turn = Player Turn. By not letting me, you are breaking the rules.

And by that line of reasoning, by not letting me issue orders during your turn, you are breaking the rules................ Yet we all know that in spite of a codex stratement saying that a Guard officer can issue orderes "each turn", they are not allowed to issue orders during the opponent's turn. Why. totally invalidates page 9, doesn't it?

Regarding him being in Reserve. Every other power/ability that has to be chosen/cast at the start of the turn, has been ruled/FAQed not to work if the model/unit starts the turn off-table. With these as a precedence, IMO, without a specific statement saying that it can be chosen while off-table, it cannot.

Powers/abilities "cast" or rules that affect distance moved are ignored. This rule is neither. Again, what happens with Vulkan's rule when he's off the table?

Gwar! wrote:No, it says "At the beginning of each turn".

Turn = Player Turn as per the BRB, so Logans rule actually says "At the beginning of each player turn".

Wow, you mean it uses the same exact term as the IG orders... "each turn"?!? Which we now know means only the owning player's turn, due to IG not being able to issue orders in the opposing player's turn.

don_mondo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, it says "At the beginning of each turn".

Turn = Player Turn as per the BRB, so Logans rule actually says "At the beginning of each player turn".

Wow, you mean it uses the same exact term as the IG orders... "each turn"?!? Which we now know means only the owning player's turn, due to IG not being able to issue orders in the opposing player's turn.

Firstly, get an attitude check.

Secondly, the Officer Must perform an action, which is Issuing an Order. You cannot do this on your opponents turn, just like how you cannot move, shoot or launch an assault on the opponents turn.
Logan does not have to do any such action. The Player chooses a rule, not Logan. Logan can be Off the Board, Dead or a Squig, the Player still picks a rule.

KaloranSLC wrote:Powers/abilities "cast" or rules that affect distance moved are ignored. This rule is neither. Again, what happens with Vulkan's rule when he's off the table?

I don't know, you tell me, then we'll know if it has any bearing on a discussion regarding an ability that is chosen at the start of the turn. Not something that is an always on persistent affect taht applies to the entier army............
Oh gee, would that make a difference?

don_mondo wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:Powers/abilities "cast" or rules that affect distance moved are ignored. This rule is neither. Again, what happens with Vulkan's rule when he's off the table?

I don't know, you tell me, then we'll know if it has any bearing on a discussion regarding an ability that is chosen at the start of the turn. Not something that is an always on persistent affect taht applies to the entier army............
Oh gee, would that make a difference?

Wow. Way to be condescending.

The fact that the rule still works when the unit is off the table is what I was trying to get at. Logan doesn't perform the action. The player does. The argument that Logan's rule does not work if he is held in reserve would mean that Vulkan's rule would not work when he's not on the table. At least, to my understanding of the way Logan's rule is worded, this is the case. However, if it stated specifically that Logan needed to be on the battlefield (I.E. Rites of Battle), or that Logan chose the rule (odd wording, but I'm sure it exists somewhere), then that would be different.

Modquisition on: This thread has been reported, er multiple times.

Lets all take a step back, take a breather and remember Rule #1. It is is a legalistic discussion, lets discuss it on that level and not get flustered people.

Gwar! wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, it says "At the beginning of each turn".

Turn = Player Turn as per the BRB, so Logans rule actually says "At the beginning of each player turn".

Wow, you mean it uses the same exact term as the IG orders... "each turn"?!? Which we now know means only the owning player's turn, due to IG not being able to issue orders in the opposing player's turn.

Firstly, get an attitude check.

Secondly, the Officer Must perform an action, which is Issuing an Order. You cannot do this on your opponents turn, just like how you cannot move, shoot or launch an assault on the opponents turn.
Logan does not have to do any such action. The Player chooses a rule, not Logan. Logan can be Off the Board, Dead or a Squig, the Player still picks a rule.

Wow, good sophistry. So in spite of both of the special abilities saying that they can be done "each turn", you maintain that one can be done on both player's turns and one can only be done in the owning player's turn? Re The "player chooses" vice "officer performs", really, seriously, you're gonna use that as an argument. The day my models do something on their own, I'm outta this game and running as fast and as far from them as I can. I'll just continue to disagree that we get to interpret the same exact words in a different fashion.

And "attitude check", me? What, I can't use sarcasm or point out a flaw in an argument? We frequently agree, but in this one I disagree with both the off-the-table stance and the opposing player turn stance you have taken. Previous GW rulings on both issues disagree with you, not me. How about this, show me one previous ruling where GW has stated that an ability/power that is cast/chosen at the start of the turn can be used before the model is on the table? Do that and I'll agree with no further argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KaloranSLC wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

KaloranSLC wrote:Powers/abilities "cast" or rules that affect distance moved are ignored. This rule is neither. Again, what happens with Vulkan's rule when he's off the table?

I don't know, you tell me, then we'll know if it has any bearing on a discussion regarding an ability that is chosen at the start of the turn. Not something that is an always on persistent affect taht applies to the entier army............
Oh gee, would that make a difference?

Wow. Way to be condescending.

The fact that the rule still works when the unit is off the table is what I was trying to get at. Logan doesn't perform the action. The player does. The argument that Logan's rule does not work if he is held in reserve would mean that Vulkan's rule would not work when he's not on the table. At least, to my understanding of the way Logan's rule is worded, this is the case. However, if it stated specifically that Logan needed to be on the battlefield (I.E. Rites of Battle), or that Logan chose the rule (odd wording, but I'm sure it exists somewhere), then that would be different.

Condescending? No more so than your original posts about Vulkan. You give, you get.

Yes, there are several persistent effect rules that apply even if the model granting them is still off the table. I grant that point. Logan's power does not fit into that category. His is in the "at the start of the turn" category, which GW has consistently ruled may not be used if the model is off table at the start of the turn. See the difference?

Look, the fact is, the Wording in the IG codex says that the Officer Model issues the order. For them to do that, it must be your turn, and they must be on the board.

Logans rule has no such stipulation. It just says "Pick a Rule". It does not say "Pick a Rule if Logan is Alive" or "Pick a Rule if Logan is in Play" or "Pick a Rule if Logan is not a Banana".

If it said "At the start of the turn, Logan Picks a special Rule", then yes, you would have a point.
However, it doesn't, so you don't.

don_mondo wrote:Condescending? No more so than your original posts about Vulkan. You give, you get.

Yes, there are several persistent effect rules that apply even if the model granting them is still off the table. I grant that point. Logan's power does not fit into that category. His is in the "at the start of the turn" category, which GW has consistently ruled may not be used if the model is off table at the start of the turn. See the difference?

I asked a question to see where a certain logic was coming from. I don't see how that was condescending. Anyway, I see where you're pointing out a difference, I just disagree with it for the reasons already given. Such is life.

I see a complete difference in the way Logans rule is written from the way any characters combat tactics are written. You, as the player controlling Logan, are choosing the rule, but you are doing it for Logan.

As I see it, without a specific exception allowing it, no rule that is not an army wide always on rule works if the model granting it is off the table.

As for using it in your opponents turn, I still maintain that reading is only possible if you parse the sentence alone without weighing it against the core game concepts. I understand not everyone agrees on those, so there is never going to be consensus on this bit. If your opponent says no to the rule working in his turn because it goes against one of the core concepts of the game, go find an opponent that has the same opinion on how the core game functions that you do. It's not worth getting worked up about. It's an ambiguous rule the same as IG orders were, there is no one true right answer that players are going to be able to divine. Hopefully this is one that GW FAQ's eventually.

The core concept I'm referencing is that you may do nothing in your opponents turn by default. No wording in a rule allows it without explicit permission, such as a statement "you can do this in your opponents turn", or something similar. The rule statement "each turn", which players translate as "each player turn", has been demonstrated already to not be sufficient wording to break that core concept rule. That's my view on it.

Gwar! wrote:Look, the fact is, the Wording in the IG codex says that the Officer Model issues the order. For them to do that, it must be your turn, and they must be on the board.

Logans rule has no such stipulation. It just says "Pick a Rule". It does not say "Pick a Rule if Logan is Alive" or "Pick a Rule if Logan is in Play" or "Pick a Rule if Logan is not a Banana".

No, it says that an IG officer may issue orders "each turn". Doesn't say they have to be on the table, none of the above. Just as Logan's rules say or don't say the exact same things. My point is that if "each turn" for IG means player's turn only, then the same applies to Logan. I agree that by pure unadulterated RAW, Logan should indeed be able to choose one each and every player turn, just as IG would be able to issue orders during "each (player) turn", per page 9. But GW, not I, has decided that the phrase "each turn" actually means something other than "each (player) turn".
And the off-table bit is due to GW's consistent rulings that any 'at the start of the turn' abilities/powers cannot be used if the model/unit is off table at the start of the turn.