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This may seem a bit unorthadox (sorry if the spelling is wrong ) but i play Eldar, and my friend is playing SM. He seems to be having difficulty coming out on top, and i would really like to change things for him ; we do have a game coming up soon -and the mission and deployment will be rolled for as usual. We play around 1200 points.
My Eldar list will consist of pretty much:
-farseer+doom+fortune
-avengers in serpent
-banshees in falcon
-scorpions
-gaurdians
-wraithlord/AT shooty
-pathfinders

Are there any units in particular that you could suggest for him, and/or tactics to use?
We have many SM units at our desposal to use -it's just which ones?

Many thanks,
Adie and Japie



Automatically Appended Next Post:
AT on the Wraithlord refers to Anti-Tank

Librarian w/ TDA + SB, GoI and Null Zone
+
Terminators x 10 CML x 2
(or Sternguard)
+
Drop-Pods w/ Locator Beacon - Fill with HF/MM Dreadnought for taking out Pathfinders and Guardians who hang back.

Use the gate to negate the Eldar mobility and get rear shots on the transports with CMLs, or tear up the aspect warriors with Sternguard.

TH/SS will deal with the Banshees nicely, if you can get them there. A Godhammer Land Raider might play well, giving you some decent long range anti-tank and a delivery method for those Termies.

The Eldar have no Fire Dragons, so going for Mech Overload should work too. Fill out HS with Vindicators or Predators, and button up the troops in Rhinos. This will keep you on the move and the Eldar working to catch up. Well played, AV 13 can be incredibly tough to deal with. Looks like once you take out the Wraithlord, your tanks should be pretty safe.

Other than that, remember to keep your forces concentrated. Eldar thrive on picking apart dispersed battlegroups, so don't let them. Never let a unit out of supporting fire range of at least two other units.

GeneralRetreat wrote:

Other than that, remember to keep your forces concentrated. Eldar thrive on picking apart dispersed battlegroups, so don't let them. Never let a unit out of supporting fire range of at least two other units.

Very True

Tank-wise we have only one rhino/razorback/whirlwind and one pred unfortunatly -drop pods we can just use coke cans, but no Land Raider option, even though i too suggested it and we have 15 terminators waiting for one.

That exact suggested setup for a librarian has been emplyed already -yet he died early due to over eagerness and aggresion, but that shouldn't happen again

Thanks though General, many good points were raised

Well, since we have to go infantry heavy because of the limited tanks here is what I recommend:

Librarian with Null Zone and Avenger

10 Devestators with 4x Missile Launcher

10 Tactical Marines with Missile Launcher, Flamer, Sergeant w/ Powerfist

10 Tactical Marines with Missile Launcher, Plasma Rifle, Sergeant w/Powerfist

10 Tactical Marines with Missile Launcher, Flamer, Sergeant w/ Powerfist

Predator with Autocannon/Las sponsons

Thunderfire Cannon

Whirlwind

Should be roughly 1170 by my calculations. Combat squad the Devs so you can shoot two targets. With the seven missile launchers and two lascannons, you should be able to knock out his tanks and wraithlord in good order. The two flamers and Avenger are close in anti-infantry options and the Thunderfire and Whirlwind provide cover negating ranged weapons to knock out guardians and path finders. 40 marines should have some resiliency in close combat and its alot of bolter fire for T3 models to absorb. I'd have slightly different suggestions if you had more mech on both sides but since you don't I think this infantry heavy version will do well.

Take care,
Mike K.

Great Idea
Thanks Mike
The only hitch i forsee is if the mission is objectives, my tac squads will spend most of the game slogging around...
Which too goes against what GeneralRetreat pointed out about Eldar liking slow isolated units -which unfortunatly is exactly what im scared my troops will become, not so?
Perhaps use the rhino, and bring in some drop pods (coke cans) to compensate?

My answer would be combat squads. Three squads hanging out with missiles in the back, three squads + libby advancing on objectives together. 16 Marines with 2 flamers and a plasma rifle should give the eldar infantry some heart burn. Gives you 6 potential scoring units in objective missions and offers only 3 kill points in Annihilation missions. You need to analyze the layout of the objectives and decide which your fire base can hold and which your combat squads can take but its definately doable.

True
Sounds like we should give this a go...
Another point though: with such slow troops its unlikely he'll be able to contest my objectives, especially in the bases (i think it's capture and control) mission, not so?

PanzerLeader wrote:Well, since we have to go infantry heavy because of the limited tanks here is what I recommend:

Librarian with Null Zone and Avenger

10 Devestators with 4x Missile Launcher

10 Tactical Marines with Missile Launcher, Flamer, Sergeant w/ Powerfist

10 Tactical Marines with Missile Launcher, Plasma Rifle, Sergeant w/Powerfist

10 Tactical Marines with Missile Launcher, Flamer, Sergeant w/ Powerfist

Predator with Autocannon/Las sponsons

Thunderfire Cannon

Whirlwind

Should be roughly 1170 by my calculations. Combat squad the Devs so you can shoot two targets. With the seven missile launchers and two lascannons, you should be able to knock out his tanks and wraithlord in good order. The two flamers and Avenger are close in anti-infantry options and the Thunderfire and Whirlwind provide cover negating ranged weapons to knock out guardians and path finders. 40 marines should have some resiliency in close combat and its alot of bolter fire for T3 models to absorb. I'd have slightly different suggestions if you had more mech on both sides but since you don't I think this infantry heavy version will do well.

Take care,
Mike K.

This seems like a rather good list. Like has been mentioned earlier, Eldar pick apart stranded units. Or even to isolated units (2x squads of csm...warp spiders leapt over my head, guardian jetbikes boosted up on one side, nearby seer council pitched in, and swooping hawks made a bombing run and finished of the encircling of them).

How does he play. Saying, oh my opponents eldar are hard, so what other units should I run is a bad idea. You learn nothing, and end up with a list tailored more against one play style than another.

So describe a typical game. How he deploys, standard strategies, and a psychological profile for his play style. IE very aggressive, loses heart when his plans dont work out, unable to play ahead, quick reacting etc.

I did jack it up though. I accidently put 4 heavies in there. Probably best to drop the Whirlwind in favor of 3 attack bikes with HBs. Gives you some speed and anti-infantry punch. Turbo boost to contest. For objective missions, you best bet it to make sure you control yours and then use your long range anti-infantry (like the Thunderfire) to punch the enemy off his. You have more then enough time to keep one and deny one for the win.

I wouldn't worry to much about foot sloggin' it, your 3+ armor should be good. And if terrain allows you can run instead of shooting.

Depends where the Objectives are located, i wouldn't worry about them until turn three or so, by that time your shooting should put some hurt on the Eldar.

Sounds true guys. Thanks
I dont think the objectives should be a problem now
The eldar play:
with rangers, gaurdians, and wraithlord at the back -they mostly just sit and snipe. The scorpions either infiltrate or outflank -and can be a nuisance. The banshees are kept in the falcon (which floats around mostly shooting) until needed to swoop on an objective or find an isolated unit (), which they dispose of relativly easily in HtH. The Avengers (with Farseer) are the backbone, and they jet around in the serpent shooting everything.

The main problems SM are having is killing the wraithlord (especially in HtH) and getting any good shots at the Vehicles because they are always moving (and are often fortuned up), and beating the banshees in assault (power weapons... Aaagh! )

I just thaught more info was needed

When all else fails, take three Vindicators.

Dodge that, you pesky space-elves!

If you've only got one Rhino, you need to either proxy more Rhinos, or go straight Drop Pod assault. One of this and two of that is a cocktail for tears.

Don't be afraid to take empty pods to get exactly what you want on the first turn, either. Devestators CAN take a Drop Pod, but don't have to use it. However, even empty, it sits in your reserve pool, and counts toward the half-on first turn rule. If you're wanting to play the waiting game, drop those empty pods as disruptors first, if you've got a lock on the enemy right off the bat, drop the boys and get to work, let the empty pods wait till later.

The answer to your question about dealing with their firebase is Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods. If one doesn't work, take two. If that doesn't work, get yourself a Tri-Las Predator, deploy it hull down, and tell it not to even talk to you again until it's dealt with that Wraithlord. This is actually what I would suggest the Land Raider GH for, as well. Differences being it can move and shoot, deliver troops, and about 140 points. Everyone ditches the Tri-Las Predator (Predator Annihilator) these days, but it's the highest volume of Lascannon shots you can get on a vehicle, period, and, it's cheaper than Devestators.

But, to get back to Troop Deployment, DON'T footslog against eldar. If you're going to, for Throne's sake take Sicarious and get one of them Outflanking (with Scouts) or Infiltrating. Even then, it's a bad idea. Eldar won't come to you unless it's already in their favor. Running just won't cut it against an enemy that doesn't want to close with you, and has transports themselves. Drop Pods are actually sub-par for this too, honestly. Once they're down, that's it. You've got to be canny enough to hold one or two in reserve to react on the battlefield.

Muhammed Ali may have stung like a bee, but if he didn't move like a butterfly, he never would've connected a punch. Marines are not a fast army, but that's no excuse to let them be slow. Against Eldar especially, a walking Marine is a joke.

Why dont i go with 2xTactical squads in rhinos (we'll make a proxy or use an ork trukk ), and one infiltrate/outflank scout squad? That should be enough troops
And then a libby with GOI and normal termies, and a pred anihilator...
and then either a thunderfire cannon or dev squad with MLs?

Normal terminators vs. eldar are a waste of points, IMO. You're really only getting a bunch of storm bolter guys and a heavy weapon (or two if you want to sink 400 + points into the unit...) just waiting to get eaten apart by Banshees or scorpions, or get bladestormed to death.

TH/SS Terminators are more resilient, better h2h vs. things like Avatars (after a thunderhammer blow he's I1 next combat phase), and while they won't survive a massive number of attacks, they do much better in hand to hand. You're still striking last but at least you'll have something to strike back with.

If you want a bunch of bolters, take a tac squad.



IMO, vs. eldar, you need to play the template AP4/AP5 game. IE: speeders with heavy flamers, dreads with heavy flamers, etc. Take a meltagun in the squad then stick a combi-flamer on sarge in case the opportunity presents itself. Every tac squad should have a Rhino, IMO. Without a Rhino they're just asking to get assaulted. At 35 points, you want the protection.

3 units of 5 missle devastator

1 assault termie squad with redeemer land raider

Then fill out the rest with anything , should be strong as it is atm

To deal with a wraithlord I take ten scouts with sniper rifles, wounding the wraithlord on 4's rending on 6 they will deal with him pretty quickly

In my own personal list I also take another squad of five, combined they went through 2 wraithlords and 6 wraithgaurd

Two Rhino-tacs and an infiltrated tac should be plenty at ~1200. Honestly, just two in Rhinos should be enough. 4xML Devs are pretty good, but all it takes is a little movement to break LOS and make them irrelevant.

Eldar have movement in spades with virtually everything.

Not to mention, Devs will loose a ranged duel with Dark Reapers just about every time.

TH/SS termies die just as easily as normal ones when getting bladestormed :( The matter against howling banshees is differant though. But as said before the problem is we do not own anything near a land raider model for them to ride in, unless we DS them... they will do nothing while walking around (though GOI will help)

And as also stated we dont have hordes of rhinos to put everything in, thats why i suggested 2 tac squads in transports, and a scout sqaud to infilflank...? surely that will suffice for troops

5 scouts are easy to hide from with a single model (wraithlord) and since he's kitted for a shooty role he would have no need to shift once protected, not to mention 2/3 hits will bounce off :S

Devs can work -because the eldar dont run DR, but that is a good point about them

Just some thoughts i had...

You do not, I'll repete this for fun, you do NOT ever, EVER!, not run mechanized in 5th Edition EVER! especially verses Eldar.

Yes, they will use their superior mobility to make you look like your standing still.

How do counter our good friends the Eldar you say?

Well, the best way is learning their strategies, they are quite tricksy those buggers. Let's review some tactics that are off the top of my head shall we? How about the most prominant 2 IMHO.

1. Nanananananana! You will never get this!

- Minding the tasteless Borat quote, Eldar are fast buggers. Hell, even un-mechanized they can probably still put up speed that other armies can't. A huge tactic Eldar can pull on you is to never let you get close enough to do anything.

Let's analyze this type of tactic in a Killpoints mission.

Now, we know that Eldar (this list included) have some nice long range firepower. Falcon, Waveserpent, AT Wraithlord blah blah blah... So, by taking out 3-4 of your killpoint and hiding for the rest of the game, they could win easily. If you are a foot army, they can EASILY do this. Pick at you little by little taking little damage due to Holofields, Serpent Fiends, and Spirit Stones helping them get away (+ being skimmers and fast vehicles mind you).

So you have to defend against this. Being on foot is a horrible, aweful, dreadful, and downright dumb idea to try and pull off against an opponent that can do this. So, using units like Landspeeders and Multi-Melta attack bikes and Drop Podding unit X can really increase your chances of crippling this type of army. By using speed to counter speed, you can better bring to bear you strength, a brute sock to the face with your tacticals and heavy armor.

SUM IT UP:

- Bring along speed. Speed kills.

Now, how about in the Objective setting?

Well, by skirting around and using JSJ and their indostrucotankness, Eldar can pick at you and cripple your transports, and last turn or next to last, flat out onto your objectives and capture one and win by 1 point. This happens WAY to often.

The key to this Eldar tactic for the eldar has to be their ability to escape crippling damage by avoiding heavy support firelanes and meltas, while crippling the opponents speed.

How do you fight this you say? I guess we are seeing a redundant tactic... Speed kills. Another way to fight it is to make sure to have your angles covered! By not letting the Eldar hide, you are making it unavoidable for those annoying skimmer tanks not to be taking shots from your lascannons and ML's.

SUM IT UP:

- Keep your angels covered and make sure to have speed!

2. Pick you apart.

Nope, no witty title for this one (couldn't think of one lol!)

One thing Eldar can do (in my experience) is focus units down like mofos. Between Doom + Guide + Long range speed and firepower, they can do this brutally effective.

How do we avoid this? Well, TMK, you can't. If the Eldar army want's a unit dead, it's generally going to die. No use wasting your whole turn trying to protect it or avoid it dying, let it die and be done. If they want a tactical squad dead, well, sucks to be them! If your opponent isn't focusing your army down, go for the throat IMMEDIATLY! Kill his mobility FAST and be aggresive! They will eventually bring you down, but you have the hammer to their mallet, a rhino rush by your tactical squads and your speeders can SERIOUSLY cripple him.

Another recurring theme? Cripple him. Eldar are fragile. T3 and generally lower saves all around. Their tanks are fast, but really, not all that tough. AV12-10 isn't that great, outmaneuvre him and hit that side armor and BLAM! Fragments flying. Now, a major tip: Meltaguns and Ordanance don't do jack against wave serpents. You're better off saving those puppies for falcons and other things. Wave serpents die best to long range guns such as Missile Launchers. Nothing is above ST8 so don't go wasting to much!

SUM IT UP:

Cripple him before he cripples you. Nothing new here, outmaneuvre him and hit him harder than he hits you. Don't spend to much worrying about the chosen dead unit, it's probably dead.

Overall, those 2 tactics will be seen the most by Eldar IMHO (other can add). What was the recurring theme for destroying it? Long range firepower and speed. How do we accomplish that?

1. Being Mechanized.
2. Having AT units that move FAST.
3. Having long range anti-transport units.

Another side note: Eldar heavily rely on their HQ. If it's an Autarch, well you can't do much about that, but a psychic hood will screw with a seer.
Another quick note: Having anti-tank that is not your troops is critical. It's not good to play pseudo-CSM and pack your meltas on your troops. They are suppose to live, not suicide melta. Something needs to be able to take out tanks and die. Eldar Firedragons do this well. Tip: Kill their transport.

So, being smurfs, let's build a list that is mechanized yet is fast.

Librarian - 100
Gate of Infinity; Might of Ancients
*Whats his point? Psychic Hood and Teleporting. Why might? Lil bit of anti-vehicle there with ST6 and 2D6 armor pen. Not bad really. And what else really helps? Could be replaced by The Avenger if anything. Joins the razorback squad. This is a suicide melta unit if needed.

Tactical Squad - 225
10x; Meltagun; Rocket Launcher; Combi-Flamer; Meltabombs; Rhino

Tactical Squad - 225
10x; Meltagun; Rocket launcher; Combi-Flamer; Meltabombs; Rhino
*These are just your standard rhino squads. They are mutli-purpose, and deadly.

Tactical Squad - 240
10x; Meltagun; Combi-Melta; Meltabombs; Lascannon; Razorback
*What is this here? This is a home objective squad + fire support. Combat squad, lascannon + 4 marines on home objective, Meltas in the Razorback. Mobile melta unit that shouldn't be afraid to die.

Yes, 3 troops. This is deadly in so many ways. It allows you flexibility in allowing one unit to die because the eldar don't like it (which they do a lot) and gives you a decent Rhino rush.

Lets get some SPEED BOYS! We don't need any anti-infantry here, we have enough in our core, lets go full on f$*# you tanks.

Attack Bike Squadron - 100
2x; MM

Landspeeder - 60
MM

Landspeeder - 60
MM

4x Mobile MM. Nasty, just nasty. Run the AB behind the rhino rush or just turbo-boost down the side.

Now for the heavy support. Really, we got 2x ML 1x LC and mobile MM so far. Let's get a mix of anti-light armor and anti-infantry here.

2x Predators - (85 each) 170
AC/HB

Some AC shots for the rear / side armor and some HB shots for them annoying group troops. What more could you ask for out of a tank!

You can set up with firelanes covered by marines (who can combat squad if needed) and by the Predators while you got 3 squads of dedicated FAST tankhunters. Life is good no?

Libby can gate and double melta (combi + normal) and maybe last-turn dual contest with the rhino + the marine inside on other obj.

How do you combat the CC squads? Assault it, ATSKNF if you aren't near a table edge, and blast them away with shots. Tada!

That's my take on it lads.

Good luck!

You do not, I'll repete this for fun, you do NOT ever, EVER!, not run mechanized in 5th Edition EVER! especially verses Eldar.

While your advice was generally good, its also completely useless given the limitations the OP mentioned---namely that he has only TWO vehicles, and only one of them is a transport. The Eldar army is similiarly mech-challenged. The lists and suggestions given in this thread were based on those limitations. So how would you build a list to help him given that he only has one actual Rhino/Razorback/Whirlwind and one predator?

Don't get me wrong. Your advice and list is sound if he had the resources to use it. But he doesn't.

Well, I'd take a different approach counting on Termies:

Librarian w/ terminator armor, storm shield, nullzone, gate

10 Termies w/ cyclone x2

10 Assault Termies w/ th/ss

10 Marines w/ lascannon, plasma gun

10 Marines w/ lascannon, plasma gun

10 Scouts w/ sniper rifle x5, ml, bolt pistol & knives x4

Eldar have a hard time to deal with a horde SM army.
The Assault Termies can move forward along a flank,
while the normal Termies advance and target whatever is in reach.
Tactical Marines target Prisms or Falcons stunning or shaken them so that they cannot shoot.
Scouts can be split so that half of the unit can outflank if necessary,
while the Snipers are deployed as infiltrators to content with the Rangers about the best spots.

PanzerLeader wrote:

You do not, I'll repete this for fun, you do NOT ever, EVER!, not run mechanized in 5th Edition EVER! especially verses Eldar.

While your advice was generally good, its also completely useless given the limitations the OP mentioned---namely that he has only TWO vehicles, and only one of them is a transport. The Eldar army is similiarly mech-challenged. The lists and suggestions given in this thread were based on those limitations. So how would you build a list to help him given that he only has one actual Rhino/Razorback/Whirlwind and one predator?

Don't get me wrong. Your advice and list is sound if he had the resources to use it. But he doesn't.

QFT
but thanks

Ok, we'll definatly run the Libby -and give him some termies to gate around with
2 x Full tac squad in rhino (we'll proxy something as the other rhino)
full scout squad
melta bikes
4xML devs

sound good?

My experience vs. Eldar with SM is only with bikers.
Generally the opponents in my area like to set up traps and plan for the end game.

With speedy units, I try to engage early in the game and put pressure on them to act earlier, which is something they don't want to do.

Eldar are squishier, and they rather expose themselves later in the game to damage. Less turns they are exposed, the longer they live. And that is not in the opponent's best interests.

Waveserpents: though they could care less about the 2D6 on the melta, don't be discouraged, str 8 and AP1 are still pretty powerful for anti-tank.

The AP1 helps heaps against holo-fields as well.

Damn resources

I guess that list sounds fine, if thats what you got I'd use it. I'd make sure the termy squad has a Chainfist and CML if they are shooty, otherwise TH/SS it up.

Sanctjud raises an excellent tactical point. Eldar rely on the waiting game.

As difficult of a proposition as it may be, you need to force the initiative, try to force them to take action early. You can withstand losses much better than they can, so don't be afraid to loose something to draw them out and force their play.

Like in chess, Tempo is a very important and oft-ignored component of strategy. When you encounter an enemy that wants to slow or yeild the tempo, you must attack with quick, sure strokes to force his hand. Goading him into action will surely destroy his ability to plan, since an opponent like that is planning for the later turns anyway.

If you can make him go "Oh Crap, I gotta deal with X" you're halfway to victory.

Being an Eldar player myself i definatly agree with their preferable tactics mentioned
So that SM list should be good.
Thanks to everyone for offering input. The game should be cracker

Second tip for the SM player - Ask for advice somewhere that your Eldar opponent can't see it

I'm gonna laugh when you design your army for this, and he shows up with a Wraithhost.

So we played the game this morning:
scenario was 4 objectives, spearhead deployment.
Game ended turn 5, and SM had 1 obj, 1 was contested and the other two were held by Eldar....
SM ran the libby, termie, 2xrhino-tac squads, scouts, devs, attack-bikes list.
Some interesting occurences:
-100 points worth of attack bikes took out 300+ points of Eldar!
-6 banshees on the charge lost combat and were caught (destroyed) afterwards by a mere combat squad!
-200 point falcon was popped by a scout!

Thanks again guys,
SM lost in the end, but it was a tight game

The most important thing to remember is to have fun playing 40k.
Well, if you loose in a tight game, don't really bother.