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Evening gents,

This may be a hold over from prior editions for me, but it came up in the last GT I attended, and again last night in a game I played. The crux of the question revolves around assaulting a unit that is not 'in' cover, but is 'behind' cover.

Here is my poor attempt at a diagram. Neither model is in cover:

.........A
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
........B

A is the assaulting unit. B is the target unit. X is difficult terrain.

Here are the relevant rules from the 5th edition rulebook:

Pg 34 Moving Assaulting Models
"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model must be the closest to the enemy..."

"Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route."

"Roll for difficult terrain or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed..."

Pg 36 Assaulting Through Cover
"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see pg 34), any models in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must make the relevant terrain test before moving."

So, here is the question:

If I charge model B with model A, and model A has enough movement to move around the terrain, may I do that without a terrain test? Or do the above referenced rules mean I must make a difficult/dangerous terrain test, as crossing the terrain is the "shortest possible route"?

Does the phrase "if necessary" when describing difficult/dangerous terrain rolls indicate that it is only "necessary" for me to go through the terrain, if I can't make it around the terrain? Does the phrase "will have to go through" on page 36 (as opposed to "must") have an impact?

Thanks

*edited for clarity

If the shortest possible route is through cover, roll for movement.

That move is not optional.

The REST can go around, if that helps.

Yes the first model must go through, so the unit takes the test. If the shortest route for the closest model was not through cover, the rest of the unit could move around it - assuming they had enough movement to do this AND get into B2B.

^^^
+1 to both above

To clarify your confusion the "if necessary" is there to say "if the model moving the shortest route had to go through cover he needs to make a terrain test" It does not allow you to avoid the previous part of the rule, where you have to move via the shortest route (in your example's case - through the cover).

in the rulebook it states that you move the shortest route possible. And if any of the assaulting unit, would have to take terrain to get to any of the defenders then a test is taken. So even if squad X has some guys in front of the sandbags (-) then squad Y will have to take terrain if any of Y could potentially reach any of X that were begind the terrain (-) example:

XXX
-------
XX

YYY


Cheers!

Iago is correct.

The first assaulting model must move along the shortest possible route. Shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

Further, all models must attempt to reach base contact if possible. Thus if a 6" move would allow one of the other assalting models to reach base contact, but ONLY if he went through difficult terrain to get there, you still have to test.

I disagree with Iago and Mannahnin. As long as the first model may move into BtB via the shortest route possible, and that route is not through difficult terrain, then you can choose whether or not you want to roll difficult terrain.

If you choose not to roll difficult terrain, then it's not possible to move through the difficult terrain, so you don't need to reach base contact with the models behind the terrain.

However, like in the example above, the closest model's shortest route is through difficult terrain, then you must make the difficult terrain roll.

The assault rules state that all assaulting models must attempt to get into base contact if possible.

Depending on the positioning of the models relative to difficult terrain, this very well may force a difficult terrain roll, even apart from the straight line move of the first model.

No, if you don't make the difficult terrain roll, then it's not possible to make BtB with models behind terrain, so you don't have to attempt it.

I see nothing in the assault rules indicating such an option.

You must move the first model directly into the closest enemy model by the shortest route.

You must attempt to move as many models into base contact you possibly can. While doing this, you must preferentially engage as many unengaged enemy models as possible.

You must move any remaining models within 2" of those in base contact if possible.

Those first two required steps can both potentially result in the unit moving into difficult, triggering a test.

But the rules for movement, which the rules for assaulting follow, with some extra steps/requirements also say that if the unit wishes to enter difficult terrain, you make a roll. If the unit does not wish to enter difficult terrain, you don't make the roll, but you also can't enter the terrain.

Therefore the "if possible" part of the assault rules. If you choose not to make the difficult terrain roll, it is not possible to reach base to base with the models in difficult terrain, therefore you don't have to try.

I understand where you’re coming from. But I believe the assault requirements (must attempt to get into base contact with as many models as possible) are more specific, and thus deny that option.

In fairness, I believe this was a different pole a while back, and only partly related to the question - as I read it.

Mannahnin has it correct. Besides, you don't know if it's possible or not until you actually roll the diffiecult terrain test.

willydstyle wrote:
Therefore the "if possible" part of the assault rules. If you choose not to make the difficult terrain roll, it is not possible to reach base to base with the models in difficult terrain, therefore you don't have to try.

The "if possible" refers to the model moving into base contact with a model it can reach that's not already in base contact with an assaulting model. If there are no enemy models in reach, it must move into base contact with one of your own units in base contact.

So if in this case;
XXX
-------
XX

YYY

Unit Y wants to assault Unit X, the first 2 Y units assault the 2 nearest X units. The 3rd Y unit must assault one of the group of 3 X units behind the cover if in reach (within 6"). If this 6" move would require moving through the cover, the entire unit must make a difficult terrain test. If this roll means the first 2 units cannot now reach the enemy unit, the assault does not happen. This is covered in the assaulting through cover section on the top right of page 36.

time wizard has it spot on.

No, time wizard has it wrong, because if you simply choose not to move through difficult terrain, because the closest model does not have to move through difficult terrain to satisfy the "shortest distance" requirement to get to the closest enemy model, then the models who are in the terrain simply can't be reached, so aren't taken into account for the procedure for moving assaulting models.

Page 34: "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models."

Page 14:"If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move. If he chooses not to [emphasis mine]the unit moves as normal [or in this case as normal for assaulting units] but may not enter difficult terrain."

Therefore you can definitely choose whether or not you want to enter the difficult terrain, as long as the closest enemy model is not in the terrain.

You are omitting the relevant passages of the assault rules, which require the assaulting player to attempt to get the maximum number of assaulting models into base contact.

This specific commandment pertaining to assault moves overrides the more general movement rule allowing the moving player to choose not to enter difficult terrain.

Based on the quotes you provided above, you could argue just as forcefully that there is no need for the first model to move by the most direct path.

Actually, you'll find that that's not a "commandment" but the rulebook actually says "If you follow this sequence you will end up with all the models in the assaulting unit in unit coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible."

Also, the 'assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible [emphasis mine in both cases]." phrase at the beginning of the section includes the phrase "if possible" as does language throughout the section.

So it is actually a summary of the movement assault rules.

Look at the paragraph above the bullet points, it specifies that a difficult terrain roll is part of the initial model's movement. It says, as part of describing the first mode's movement "roll for difficult terrain if necessary." This is not a check to see if any model in the unit require the test, it is a check only for the first model.

Then the use of "if possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

It then goes on to tell you what to do if it is not possible to fulfill that requirement.

So, the difficult terrain test is part of the first model's movement. If the first model did not need a difficult terrain test (and you chose not to take one) then when the following models cannot enter the difficult terrain, you both have rules for how to move them, and you have satisfied the "as many models as possible" description because it simply wasn't possible to reach those models in terrain.

willydstyle wrote: So, the difficult terrain test is part of the first model's movement. If the first model did not need a difficult terrain test (and you chose not to take one) then when the following models cannot enter the difficult terrain, you both have rules for how to move them, and you have satisfied the "as many models as possible" description because it simply wasn't possible to reach those models in terrain.

Look at page 36 under 'Assaulting Through Cover' - "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." {emphasis mine}
You must follow the rules for assaulting models,
1-closest model must move in base contact with nearest enemy
2-each model must end in coherency with a model that already moved
3-if possible the model must move into base contact with an unengaged enemy model
4-if not, move into base contact with already engaged model
5-if not, move within 2" of a friendly engaged model
6-if not, stay in coherency

So following the assault rules, you must move all of your models into contact if possible. This is not an optional rule. That was why I said what I did about the earlier diagram. If I have 8 models assaulting your 8 models, the closest has to move into base contact with the closest. I can then move the rest in any order I wish. But I have to move into base contact with as many of your models as possible (remember, no holding back) and if any of the models would have to move into or over difficult terrain, a difficult terrain test must be taken for the entire unit.

You don't have an option of saying you aren't going to move a model into base contact because it would have to move through difficult terrain. If it is possible for the model to assault, even through the terrain, it has to.

I hope I explained it clearly, sometimes when I re-read it, it comes out confusing.

You're forgetting a few big "if possibles" and "will have to"s.

If you don't make the difficult terrain test as part of moving the first mini, then none of the other models will have to go through difficult terrain.

Honestly, I think that page 36 contradicts the rules written on page 34.

Willydstyle therein lies the problem with your interpretation. If you find there is one interpretation that causes rules to conflict, and another that does not, a good rule of thumb is to go with the one that causes no conflict.

Except the rules don't give us any mechanism for determining whether or not a model will need to move through cover except for the first model moved.

willydstyle wrote: You're forgetting a few big "if possibles" and "will have to"s.

If you don't make the difficult terrain test as part of moving the first mini, then none of the other models will have to go through difficult terrain.

No, look at the diagram I referred to.

XXX
-------
XX

YYY

Unit Y wants to assault Unit X, the first 2 Y units assault the 2 nearest X units. The 3rd Y unit must assault one of the group of 3 X units behind the cover if in reach (within 6") because the rules say that each model must assault an unengaged enemy model if in reach. If this 6" move would require moving through the cover, the entire unit must make a difficult terrain test.

THe rules on page 36 says that if any model goes through difficult terrain, then the entire unit needs to take a difficult terrain test. Read the rest of the rule because it then goes on to give the disadvantages of having to do this.

willydstyle wrote: Honestly, I think that page 36 contradicts the rules written on page 34.

No, it actually supports them. The rules balance out assaults. I assault you, I get +1 attacks on the charge. I assault you through terrain, I still get +1 on the charge, but you strike first because my initiative is reduced to 1.

The reason the test is made when any model in the unit hasg to cross difficult terrain is to prevent assaulting units from trying to make an "end run" around cover to negate the benefit of cover. This also clarified the assauting through cover dilemma in 4th edition.

Yes it does. As stated above, you need to try and get them all in b2b with as many unengaged models as possible. There are so many different possible placements of models that it is impossible to delineate each possible scenario, so it does not give us a direct mechanism other than to measure and see where the models can go. If they can make it by not going through DT, then fine. But if they would not otherwise reach b2b without going then you need to make the check - imo.

willydstyle wrote:Except the rules don't give us any mechanism for determining whether or not a model will need to move through cover except for the first model moved.

Yes they do. Again, page 36, top of the page, right hand column, under ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER , "If, following the rules for MOVING assaulting models (SEE PAGE 34) any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain...." doesn't get much clearer than that.
Doesn't say if, etc, the first model, it says any.

But if the first model doesn't roll difficult terrain, than "any" model doesn't have to, and in fact cannot.

You do not roll DT tests for models, only units.

If one model would have to go through DT in order to satisfy the assaulting rules, than the unit does.

willydstyle wrote:But if the first model doesn't roll difficult terrain, than "any" model doesn't have to, and in fact cannot.

I'm afraid you're not following the rules on page 34. I've listed them a few times.

X X X X X enemy unit
******** wall
X additional enemy model part of unit

Y Y friendly unit (assaulting and 3" away from red X)

Step 1 - Blue Y moves into base contact with red X (Page 34, 2nd paragraph under 'MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS')
Step 2 - Yellow Y has to move into base contact with X model, but not the red one. (page 34 bullet point 2)
To do so, it must move over the wall. To do that, it must make a difficult terrain test. Therefore the unit makes a difficult terrain test. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER' )
If they roll a 3, then blue Y can still assult, but yellow Y will now have to assault red X because the yellow X models are no longer in reach. (page 34 2nd bullet point)
If they roll a 1, then blue Y can't reach red X so the assault does not take place. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER', "...such test might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy.")

I really don't see how I can explain it any clearer than this. Maybe someone else can explain it better?