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I think you have done a perfect job of explaining it. If that does not convince someone, I doubt they can be convinced.

Thanks Dracos!

Exactly. Well explained.

I understood the logic behind your argument the first time you posted it. I simply disagree with it.

willydstyle wrote:I understood the logic behind your argument the first time you posted it. I simply disagree with it.

Okay, we can agree to disagree!
Just curious if you disagree with my logic or with the rules?
If you disagree with the rules, you can just houserule whatever you wish.
However, you would have to houserule a manner of assaulting that is in conflict with the rules.

The part that bothers me is you have to start moving the models, or at least measuring the distances, before you can know if you need to roll a difficult terrain test.

I can see a scenario where not until you have moved all but one of your units it becomes clear you need a difficult terrain test for the last guy, only to roll not a 6 and move them all back?

The rules imply that by following them you should be able to tell if a difficult terrain test is needed before moving a single model.

With any model triggering difficult terrain tests this sounds impossible for certain scenarios. (Unless you can visualize every move in your head along with how your bases will line up changing the move for the next model etc etc).

time wizard wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I understood the logic behind your argument the first time you posted it. I simply disagree with it.

Okay, we can agree to disagree!
Just curious if you disagree with my logic or with the rules?
If you disagree with the rules, you can just houserule whatever you wish.
However, you would have to houserule a manner of assaulting that is in conflict with the rules.

I don't disagree with the rules. I think the rules support my interpretation better.

scarab5 wrote:The part that bothers me is you have to start moving the models, or at least measuring the distances, before you can know if you need to roll a difficult terrain test.

I can see a scenario where not until you have moved all but one of your units it becomes clear you need a difficult terrain test for the last guy, only to roll not a 6 and move them all back?

The rules imply that by following them you should be able to tell if a difficult terrain test is needed before moving a single model.

With any model triggering difficult terrain tests this sounds impossible for certain scenarios. (Unless you can visualize every move in your head along with how your bases will line up changing the move for the next model etc etc).

Which is why you are told to choose whether or not to roll difficult terrain by the movement rules, with a restriction based on the assault rules that if the first model must go through difficult terrain you have to roll.

willydstyle wrote: Which is why you are told to choose whether or not to roll difficult terrain by the movement rules, with a restriction based on the assault rules that if the first model must go through difficult terrain you have to roll.

Yes which is covered by the rules on page 34. You are still not following the rules on page 36, which again are;
"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." {emphasis mine}

You are selectively trying to use 1 or 2 relevant rules while ignoring this last one.
I'll leave it at this. I don't believe anything I post at this point is going to change your mind.

I have to say Willydstyle is right on this one. Most of you guys have the sequencing way off.

Step one: you move the first model up to the enemy unit in a straight line. If this would bring you through difficult terrain, you have to test. If it would not bring you through difficult terrain, you may test, but no rule requires you to do this.

Step two: another model follows the first one into the charge. If this would bring the model through difficult terrain, it would require a difficult terrain test for the unit to move. The problem here is that it is too late to make a new test.

What you guys are arguing is that you need to pre-measure to see if you need to make a difficult terrain test before you start moving your models. This is expressly forbidden by the rules, as nothing told you to make any measurement until you actually start moving, which is after the test.

It's that "if" that's the key for my following it the way that Willydstyle is laying it out.

A non-tested move has been made, therefore it is not possible to test for the potential of moving into the terrain. That being the case, move on to what how you can move models that can't enter the terrain.

thebetter1 wrote: I have to say Willydstyle is right on this one. Most of you guys have the sequencing way off.

Step one: you move the first model up to the enemy unit in a straight line. If this would bring you through difficult terrain, you have to test. If it would not bring you through difficult terrain, you may test, but no rule requires you to do this.

What? If you are not moving through difficult terrain, why would you take a difficult terrain test?

thebetter1 wrote:Step two: another model follows the first one into the charge. If this would bring the model through difficult terrain, it would require a difficult terrain test for the unit to move. The problem here is that it is too late to make a new test.

No it's not. Look at page 36 under 'Assaulting Through Cover' - "If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving." {emphasis mine}

thebetter1 wrote:What you guys are arguing is that you need to pre-measure to see if you need to make a difficult terrain test before you start moving your models. This is expressly forbidden by the rules, as nothing told you to make any measurement until you actually start moving, which is after the test.

First, you measure before moving any model. If you aren't in assault range, you don't assault. Last sentence under 'MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS', "If the closest models is found not to be within move distance to the enemy, that assault does not happen and no model is moved." This is not pre-measuring, this is measuring for the assault. Once you declare an assault, you can measure for each model in the assaulting unit. How else can you tell which is the closest?

Here is the sequence for moving assaulting units, again;

1-closest model must move in base contact with nearest enemy
2-each model must end in coherency with a model that already moved
3-if possible the model must move into base contact with an unengaged enemy model
4-if not, move into base contact with already engaged model
5-if not, move within 2" of a friendly engaged model
6-if not, stay in coherency

So following the assault rules, you must move all of your models into contact if possible. This is not an optional rule. That was why I said what I did about the earlier diagram. If I have 8 models assaulting your 8 models, the closest has to move into base contact with the closest. I can then move the rest in any order I wish. But I have to move into base contact with as many of your models as possible (remember, no holding back) and if any of the models would have to move into or over difficult terrain, a difficult terrain test must be taken for the entire unit.

You must follow the rules for assaulting models,
You don't have an option of saying you aren't going to move a model into base contact because it would have to move through difficult terrain. If it is possible for the model to assault, even through the terrain, it has to.

You don't have to premeasure any more than you have to pre-measure to determine if the first model is in range.

Here's out to easily do it.

Step 1: Declare the assault, without pre-measuring.
Step 2: Measure the first model's straight line path. Is it within 6"? Okay, the assault is possible. Will he be forced to move through difficult? If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it. If no, move on to...
Step 3: Eyeball or measure whether any of the other models are going to be forced into difficult terrain. If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it.

Easy.

Mannahnin wrote:You don't have to premeasure any more than you have to pre-measure to determine if the first model is in range.

Here's out to easily do it.

Step 1: Declare the assault, without pre-measuring.
Step 2: Measure the first model's straight line path. Is it within 6"? Okay, the assault is possible. Will he be forced to move through difficult? If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it. If no, move on to...
Step 3: Eyeball or measure whether any of the other models are going to be forced into difficult terrain. If yes, roll difficult, proceed to move your models if you make it.

Easy.

Except that's not how the book tells us to do it.

Willy, I just described the physical way you execute the actual rule procedure.

Time wizard laid it out explicitly. Your interpretation requires us to ignore the following rule:

"If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving."

Actually, I've explained over and over again how it does not ignore that rule.

If you choose not to make a difficult terrain roll, then no model will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain.

So unless the first model has to make the roll, no model will be able to enter the terrain. But you have to decide at the first model, otherwise you could have a situation where the first model is in range, you move it, but then due to a difficult terrain roll you have to move it back. That doesn't jive with the procedure for moving assaulting models.

time wizard wrote:

X X X X X enemy unit
******** wall
X additional enemy model part of unit

Y Y friendly unit (assaulting and 3" away from red X)

Step 1 - Blue Y moves into base contact with red X (Page 34, 2nd paragraph under 'MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS')
Step 2 - Yellow Y has to move into base contact with X model, but not the red one. (page 34 bullet point 2)
To do so, it must move over the wall. To do that, it must make a difficult terrain test. Therefore the unit makes a difficult terrain test. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER' )
If they roll a 3, then blue Y can still assult, but yellow Y will now have to assault red X because the yellow X models are no longer in reach. (page 34 2nd bullet point)
If they roll a 1, then blue Y can't reach red X so the assault does not take place. (page 36 under 'ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER', "...such test might cause the assault to fail altogether if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy.")

I really don't see how I can explain it any clearer than this. Maybe someone else can explain it better?

@ Time wizard: That is a very good summary of the rules

willydstyle wrote:Actually, I've explained over and over again how it does not ignore that rule.

Except that your explanation disregards the phrase "any model" and act as if that clause said "the first moving model" instead.

No, I'm explaining how whether or not "any model" will have to move through the terrain is dependent on the first model.

Given your argument, next to Time Wizard's diagram (which Wyoming Fox just quoted), I think TW has the answer which more closely adheres to the RAW and my view of the RAI.

willydstyle wrote:No, I'm explaining how whether or not "any model" will have to move through the terrain is dependent on the first model.

Okay, then please cite the rule that states that, I don't see it in the rulebook.

Page 14. If you want to move through difficult terrain you have to choose whether your will or not.

The only part of an assault where a model must move through difficult terrain is if the shortest distance between the closest models is through the terrain.

After that, the rest of the models follow the rules for assaulting models.

If they are prevented from entering difficult terrain because you did not need to for the first model, then if the following models do not enter difficult terrain, they have followed the rule for engaging base to base "if possible" because it was not possible to engage those models.

All that would make it not possible for a model to assault is if it would have to move through friendly or enemy models, through a gap narrower than its base, or into base contact with a model from a unit it is not assaulting.
If any model in the unit, after the first one moves into base contact, can assault an ungaged enemy model, it must do so "if possible" and the above sentence lists what would maek it not possible.
If any model has to move through difficult or dangerous terrain to assault, the unit must make the relevant test.

If it is possible to move a model into base with an unengaged enemy model, it must be done.
If a difficult terrain check has not been made, a model may not move through difficult terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I still think this is about a different poll, though.

kirsanth wrote:If it is possible to move a model into base with an unengaged enemy model, it must be done.
If a difficult terrain check has not been made, a model may not move through difficult terrain.

Please re-read the rule on page 36, top right hand side of the page.

Please re-read the rules on page 14, the bottom left hand side of the page.

kirsanth wrote:Please re-read the rules on page 14, the bottom left hand side of the page.

I did. Those rules refer to moving your models. That action is taken during the Movement phase.
The rules I cited and quoted referred to moving assaulting models and assaulting through cover which are actions taken during the Assault phase.

And in the movement phase, if even 1 model in a unit is moving through the difficult terrain, the unit takes a difficult terrain test.

If any of the models have to move through difficult to make the shortest possible path, then the unit has to take the difficult test.

Rulebook Pg 36.

Shortest possible path is only needed for the first model.

I can't believe this has gone on for so long.

After you move the first model without making the test, it is ILLEGAL to make a difficult terrain test. Some of you have suggested "eyeballing" it to see whether a model will have to move through difficult terrain before the first model is moved. The rules do not support this. In fact, the information about whether a model is going to enter difficult terrain is simply not available until after you start moving the unit, at which point it is too late to take the test, which makes the difficult terrain impassible to the unit.

Not the case.

Look at Time Wizard's diagram again. Imagine that first model is 2" away from the assaulting unit, the wall is right behind it, and the rest of the unit is less than 4" from the assaulting unit.

You can see perfectly well that your assaulting models are capable of making base contact with the rear models if they take the difficult terrain test and score a 4+. Page 36 requires you to try.