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Da Voodoo iz commin' back!

I'm lookin at a potential triumphant return to the world of 40k.

I've not played more than 5 games of 5th Ed since it's been out, less I think. But I'm going to end up building up my Ork army into 5th Ed compliant parts as well as my Marines. This thread I'd like to focus on the Marines, but eventually I'll have some Orky ideas up for discussion as well.

So while I'm looking at 5th Ed and the new Marine codex I see a lot of things that I used to consider "fun" and non competitive became awesome: My Land Raider + Assault Terminators are now feared (though it's my TH+SS termies now, not my LC ones), and Mech in general seems to be the in thing to do.

So I'm trying to come up with list ideas in between craziness at work and while I know I want to take a LR+Termies + a Vindi and some Mechanized bits, I'm torn on tactical squads:

Is it even worth taking static fire base squads? One of my favorite squads in my "for fun" lists in 4th Ed was a 10 Man Tac squad w/ Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon, and PF Sarge. They seem like the perfect kind of thing for 5th Ed where you plop them on an objective (that you placed in cover) and let them fire and hold it all game. Maybe give them a Razorback for some long range punch for minimal points?

Or am I completely off and I should be taking 10 Man squads with just a special weapon (read: Meltas/Flamers) + PF and sticking them in Rhinos and rushing headlong at the enemy - using them primarily for anti-infantry duty?

Is it worth while to take half Mech (Vindi, LR, Razorback or two) and combine it with some static MEQ's on the ground, like the above tac squad and maybe a Combat Squadded Dev unit with 4 Missile Launchers?

I understand that Assault Cannons went out and Multi-Meltas are in, so are taking some units in Pods (namely Dreads) and putting them in a normal army worth while?

Also, what's most peoples thoughts on HQ choices now adays? I have a Terminator Chaplain who used to love riding in the Pimp Wagon w/ his Assault Terminator buddies but he seems kind of underwhelming now, similarly my old Terminator Libby seems moderately meh, though I haven't played with him at all in 5th.

Should I be looking for a Commander to run my force now and if so what role suits him best?

I'm hoping to get some of my ideas down pat for a nice list to play against some friends who've also been out of 40k for a while now, so any discussion is appreciated.

Thanks!

I can't comment too much on SMs, but Im pretty sure the 1 heavy weapon & 1 special weapon on tacticals is the optimal way of running them. 2 special weapons is more of a Chaos Space Marine thing.

Rhinos are so cheap (35 points) that there really is no reason NOT to take one.

Droppods are annoying to play against, period. They really allow you to counter any sort of deployment or unexpected strategies.

ahh... my thoughts on space marines...

For terminators, I find 2x claws + 3x hammers is the best arrangement. Normally you engage initiative 4 enemies (marines....), so having claws helps with it. If the enemy forces you to make saves at initiative 4, focus most of your saves on the lightning claws, because they already swung. In this way, everyone gets to swing. If you have just hammers, your always taking saves on terminators who haven't swung yet in hand to hand, and may loose out on some valuable swings.

Best HQ by far is the librarian... their psychic powers are all very powerful, but null zone and avenger stand out as the best IMO. Now, you want null zone to be around your terminators, because you send them against the biggest and hardest to kill things in the enemy army... things with invulnerable saves. The problem with this, is that the librarian himself sucks in hand to hand unless you spend points on terminator armor, a stormshield, and epistolary upgrades, and even then he's mediocre. So you don't really want him in the raider.


This leaves your librarian with 2 real options... in a razorback with a short tac squad, or (my favorite option) in an assault squad with a jump pack. They move fast, keep up with raiders, and can help take care of enemy threats the terminators don't want to waste time on.

As far as tac squads... plasma + plasma cannon + power sword is my favorite variant for guarding objectives... melta + multimelta + powerfist is what I use for anti-tank and assault roles, and flamer + missile launcher is good for an all around cheap squad. You can specialize squads further if you want by going melta + combi-melta on a 10 man squad in a rhino, to pump those 2 melta shots into an enemy target at range. flamer + combi-flamer is also pretty good, though I prefer the assault squad to that, because it can flame and then assault.

About drop pods... don't take them unless you take like 3-4 or more of them. If you take a single dreadnought in a drop pod, more often than not it will just die without doing much damage.

A great thing about going mech is that you render anti-infantry weapons much less effective. Going half way or using pods in addition ruins that advantage. Multimeltas are in for primary close range anti-tank.

You don't need to skip you heavy weapon because by giving up the bolter you still have the bolt pistol. So if you move and can't fire the heavy, you still get the one shot. Giving up one shot on the move is worth it for the extra tactical flexibility it gives you.

Dreads in pods works alright.

What kind of landraider do you have, the godhammer? If you want to run the landraider the army should be built to compliment the kind you run. I run a crusader with 4 TH SS termies and 3 LC that works very well. But that means that the rest of the army is focused on that close range damage. IF you have a godhammer a bit more long range would compliment it better.

Dev squads are overpriced. I think there are always better option for SM.

In 1500 points, I run 2 tac squads in a rhino and a 5 man in a razorback along with a LRC full of termies and a libby. Add in a couple landspeeders and you hit 1500. The libby is a support character and is more of a counter to some of the stronger HQs your opponent might bring. At my FLGS this list is known as being one of the harder around - simply because it has an answer to basically everything.

YMMV, good luck.

Welcome to the adventure that is Fifth Edition Marines.

My preferred tac squad load out is 10 Marines with assorted heavy and special weapons mounted in a Razorback. In objective games, I can combat squad down and leave the heavy weapon back in my deployment zones to hold objectives there and use the Sergeant with fist/sword in the Razorback to go take enemy objectives. Operating two Razorbacks in tandem gives me the same number of marines and some additional CC ability as a normal 10 man squad would have.

I find I get the best results by overloading on troop choices. I typically field 4 full tactical squads in Razorbacks at 1750 points. This gives me a good base of static and mobile firepower. I then compliment it by adding in Predators, Attack Bikes and Thunderfire Cannons to round out a shooting heavy army. I haven't tried the big terminator squad personally yet but the six or seven times I've played against it I've found that I have more then enough AP1 and AP2 weapons to stop it cold, even with mass 3++ saves.

The Librarian is an awesome choice now. Terminator Armor + Vortex of Doom is a great mobile weapon. A base librarian with null zone and avenger is a great compliment to a counter assault unit.

Hope this helps.

I've had amazing luck with Devastators lately, especially when I started fielding them at full-strength behind some cover without Combat Squading them. They cause enough trouble for my opponent that they often have to pour fire into them to get rid of them all (which doesn't always succeed), thus allowing me to get everything else where I want it to go, and return fire.

The last game I played, I put them near their Rhino just in case they had to book it somewhere. They instead got fired on pretty heavily (3 units or so, resulting in about 7 or 8 casualties), followed by some Kroot trying to come in for an assault. The rhino helped discourage the filthy Xenos, allowing me a few more turns with my remaining Devs.

Welcome Back! You where missed in the halls of 40k.

Assault Terminators and Land Raiders - I am right there with you, 5th edition is a success im my mind just for making the Land Raider useful. In the current codex, Land Raiders are the best they have ever been. Assault Terminators too. Some would say to stick with just TH/SS, but I recommend having one or two LCs in there, they really help.

Tactical Squads - They are much better being played conservatively. IMHO, they are best at ten men in a Rhino. That may just be me, as I have faced against too many IG players that can punish Tacticals outside a tank. It doesn't take too many hits from a large indirect fire blast that is Str. 6, AP 3, ignores cover, to emotionally scar you. At ten men, you get a free heavy weapon, and the ability to combat squad. Most of those heavy weapons are free on top of that to, and though I have stuck with the free ones, I have experimented with Lascannons recently. You have teo firepoints off the top of a Rhino, so camping 5 guys with a heavy weapon in a Rhino on an objective is a good idea. I have combat squaded the other guys sometimes into a Raider to creat two very durable troop choices. SInce they are the only scoring units one tends to field, they really don't work well as a front line element.

Drop Pods - Are different now due to Drop Pod assault. I generally dislike Tacticals in Drop Pods, but Dreads (any varient), Sternguard, etc. can all work. You just have to realize when building your list which pods you expect to come in on the first turn. People tend to dislike the mixed force of Mech and Drop Pods, but I disagree. I tend to think Drop Pods are best fielded as a compliment to a forward advance.

Commander - My default cheap choice is a Librarian, and abilities like Null Zone, Gate, and Vortex of Doom are such great force multipliers, plus the Hood is almost essential against IG PBS and Chaos Lash. Most of the special characters are good and yeild different army lists. Company Commanders are good for unlocking the excellent command squad unit. The only HQ I find lackluster anymore is the chaplain, though there are certain units I think require him (Assault Marines being up there).

Post your rough idea for an army list and I can help you through it.

Yeah, welcome back, Voodoo!

Marines are great this edition. I feel that they got it right this time.

Don't overlook the special characters, they really change the way marines can play. The ever popular Vulkan makes an army geared up for him very potent.

Also, Shrike makes a SM assault army blisteringly fast. Those termies coming out of a LRC can have FoF!

I love the Libby too, I have found that a great use for him is in termy armor with a storm shield and gate + another power of your choice. I combo this with a 10 man, 2 heavy weapon terminator squad and you have a super mobile squad that can shoot like hell or assault well.

For tac marines, I still use the static shooting squad sitting on an objective. This works well with Lysander (who is an absolute beast in HtH) or a techmarine as the +1 to their cover save makes them hard to move.

However, I usually use a 5 man sniper scout squad for the same purpose as with their cloaks they get a 2+ cover save.

As others have said, tac marines are best used in rhinos these days, or drop pods as Night Lords mentioned.

One special, a free heavy, PF and a maybe a combi weapon in either a rhino or razorback is my favorite combo. This gives you a lot of flexibility, mobility and scoring options.

I have found that two tac squads in rhinos or pods, and a scout squad to babysit your objective covers your scoring needs just fine.

The great thing about the 5th ed SM dex is the sheer amount of options you have. I have pulled some wacky ass lists out of it and had a ton of fun with it. It really reinvigorated my love of my marine army.

Good luck with it and post some lists for C&C.

Welcome back!

My friend recently shut down my Chaos list with a Termi Chap with assault terms in a landraider. It was both physically and emotionally scaring

I love marines in 5th.

Standard loadout for Tacticals for me is 10 men, Meltagun, and a Multi-Melta or Plasma Cannon (usually with a 2:1 or greater ratio of PC squads to MM squads) in a Rhino, no fist.

The Rhino has fire points, which are absolutely beautiful (move 12", fire the melta out the hatch, or stand still and fire the melta and the heavy weapon), and put you in a better situation for Combat Squads -- the main reason I'm not keen on Razorbacks.

My typical deployment in objective-based missions is to load up all of the MG/MM squads as full ten man squads, and put them in the Rhino, and split the MG/PC squads, leaving the PC behind (typically on an objective) and the MG in the Rhino. The Rhino gives the opportunity to have the full squad transported if it's beneficial for the mission, and, imo, the fire point is as useful as the Razorback gun unless you take one of the 35 point upgrades for it.

Add to the Tacs a Librarian (cheap and effective HQ), some AC/HB Predators (85 points buys you an AV13 vehicle with 8 AP4 shots), and Land Speeders (MM or MM/HF), and you've got a solid army.

Cassius is a pretty awesome option if you intend to run a Chappy out of a LR.

Don't forget though...meltas are overrated.

So is Lash.

Thanks for all the replies, there's definitely some good info in here. Now the fun comes into making this stuff from the models I have available.

@Mahu and Reecius - Nice to see some old names still around, I haven't been on Dakka too much at least not in the 40k sections till recently.

I've got a list posted up here for people to comment on: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/261468.page

Welcome to 5th edition Voodoo. I started playing Space Marines with the new codex last year and have had some pretty good success with them.

At 1750-2000 points you'll generally see the most effective builds use the Salamander special character, Vulkan He'Stan. Suddenly the most effective tank killing gun has gone from hitting 66% of the time to nearly 88% of the time. Flammers become even more effective on hordes. Thunder Hammer/Storm shield Assault terminators not only have a 3+ invu save used on BOTH shooting & Assaults but also a reroll on the attack. You get all of that before you factor in the 3 wound strength 6 character with a heavy flamer and 2+/3+ save you end up getting to lead the army.

In the year I've been playing space marines the only losses I've had against other space marine players were from those who were fielding armies lead by Pedro. So what I'm trying to say is that if you don't want to field a special character to lead your army you are not IMO choosing to field the most effective army. That being said, Librarian's have some good powers in a support roll, Chaplains are still great at leading a charge, and a captain on a bike can lead a very effective bike army.

With the combat squad rule you can have both a sit back and shoot & a get up in their face force. Just take a ten man squad and put the heavy weapon and 4 marines in cover while the special weapon & 4 marines take a rhino or razorback forward. As I play Salamanders I generally put the multi Melta, flamer, & combi melta sarge in a rhino and drive them forward until they are about to the middle of the board. the 24 inch Multi Melta range can shoot at a lot of stuff then, & I have the flamer to finish off troops later.

You really don't need to put extra armor on Rhinos, the only place to put it should be on land raiders with assault units.

I personally like Multi Melta attack bikes a lot, as they are either firing at something or getting a 3+ cover save from turboboosting.

With all the Melta out there dreads seem to be a bit less effective, most people are instead fielding predators with autocannos & heavy bolters or autocannons & lascannons. I'm more of a fan of thunderfire cannons or vindicators. Thought it would have helped if I could buy POWMS for vindicators.

I think the best way to play space marines is to plan to play against lots of armor. If you have enough high strength weapons (Multi meltas, meltaguns, combi meltas, lascannons, and demolisher cannons) to destroy the transports then your assault units can focus on killing whatever is inside. Of course, having some high fire output units (dakka predators, thunderfires, sternguard, or land speeders with heavy bolters and missile launchers) can always help when facing hordes & the troops in transports.

And remember- While your non troop choices can't score on an objective they can prevent the other player's troops from claiming it himself.

I don't find Vulkan to be a mandatory buy by any means. If you're already running an aggressive force with TH/SS terminators and lots of close-in firepower, then he's a good choice, but if you have a different playstyle or army, Vulkan can be unhelpful or even disadvantageous. Remember that Combat Tactics can get you out of a lot of tough scrapes, and that every special character comes with a hidden cost of forfeiting this great ability.

How well have Shrike lists been doing, Infiltrate with some Vangaurd, few Assault squads and 2-3 tacs with pg/mg/lascannon/PF and a sternguard squad in a drop pod. About 1750-1850 depending on numbers and weapon options. I played in one tourney back in spring and went 3-0, but haven't played it since then,(not painted yet/been into fantasy). Let me know your thoughts on that type of list please.

The overall metagame is very unstable, and nobody really knows what's good and bad, especially with SW just coming out. I hear foot Eldar just picked up a few events, which is certainly unusual. In any case, I get the general perception that Shrike lists are theoretically good, but more in the sense of "Assault Terminator rush" than the stuff you suggest. In particular, Shrike seems more commonly used to infiltrate a bunch of lightning claw Terminators than he is to bring up Vanguard, which don't seem very popular.

Hey Voodoo..

I just got back from a 60 man tourney, the Wild West Shootout.

The top tables on sunday were crawling with space marines. Like at every tourney, I eyeballed every list I could to see what was working.

The really good news with marines, is that they are top tier competitive for once, and for tac marines, there isn't any magical combo that you have to take.

I saw undefeated space marines with heavy bolters, I saw salamanders with flamer/MM, I saw lots of missile launchers.

The only constant was to take 10, and a special weapon and a heavy weapon. Power fist is optional unless you take a special character that makes you stubborn, then it is mandatory. You can drop pod them. (lots of drop pods at the tourney) you can use rhinos. You can play a more reactive list and run razorbacks and combat squadded heavy weapons. You can run combi-weapons on the sergeant if you are running rhinos to get a one time double shot with specials.

My suggestion would be to design your list without troops first. What support and attack units you take will inform your tac squad loadout much more than an on a forum. You haven't been away long enough to not know that you'll need at least two units that have a consistent melta output. But that could come from crusaders, attack bikes, or speeders. You need multi-shot or blast AP2, plasma guns, plasma cannons, vindicators, and as you are a midrange firefighter, you need legit counter-assault, (EVERY non-space wolf marine player at the top tables had at least one unit of assault termies)

Once you've built out the rest of your list, you'll see where you are void. If you are void horde-kill, take flamer/combi-flamer/rhino or flamer/razorback. If you are void in terminator/bloodcrusher/thunderwolf kill then take plasma/combi-plas/rhino. If you are void in land raider answers then melta/combimelta/rhino is a great choice (you see this a lot).

Be careful not to fall into the melta trap. All armies that shoot need some 48" range tank kill as well as meltas. Planning to use a 6" range gun to kill vendettas/typhoon speeders/hammerheads is not smart. Marines tend to like predator destructors/typhoon speeders/min-max missile devs or an abundance of combat squadded tac marine heavy weapons.

And lastly, your HQ question. Without a doubt the most popular HQ taken by the marines at the top tables was the librarian. The most consistent power chosen was null zone. Even the sally player plumped for a librarian in addition to vulkan. Null zone, avenger seemed like the most common loadout.

I'll mention a couple other HQ options. If you are leaning towards CC (did you take 2 land raiders and 2 thundershield units?) then a chaplain to go with the terms might be your best bet. His re-roll is indiscriminate, and can really help you lay some thunderhammer hits on fast moving vehicles. With the right amount of shooting, his unit buff is not necessary however.

The captain doesn't do anything really worthwhile, you can stick him with your counter-charge element and beef it up at a cost of shooting. But what I really like about him is the option he opens to buy a command squad. About the only thing i like about the command squad is the option of 4 special weapons and FNP. 4 plasma guns and FNP is by far my favorite, it is an MC/terminator/hard-nut killer, and the losses taken from overheat are insignificant with 3+/4+.

I think that's about all you'll need to keep going with marines... I'm headed over to comment on your list now

Couple things I have found with SM.

Vulkan really isn't worth it unless you are playing 2000 pts or more.

Librarian riding with 5 TH/SS terminators is amazing.
Don't take 5 TH/SS terminators with a LRC.

Not that this isn't viable, but you want to of these units. So take 10 TH/SS (2-4 LC's thrown in) terminators and 2 LRC/LRR's.

We have discussed 10 man squads vs 5 man squads in a razorback, and personally I believe 10 man is better. 5 marines disembarking just don't pack enough of a punch.

MM/Flamer is the standard weapons loadout for them. I am totally against PF's. You want your marines running away to shoot again. Not get tied up in CC.

Vindicators vs Predators
Predators are better vs Xenos
Vindicators are better vs MEQ's
Predators are better vs vehicles
Predators are better all around

That said, its up to you. Just remember, you don't want said vindicator scattering on your terminators

Dreads
If your dropping them in, MM/CCW
If they are walking, 2x TL - Autocannon

(also, Shep, what did you play there and how did you do?)

Timmah wrote:(also, Shep, what did you play there and how did you do?)

Shameless plug...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/261905.page#1056955

I'm sorry, I just had to address this:

Vulkan really isn't worth it unless you are playing 2000 pts or more.

As with everything, it depends on your army composition. Assault Terminators and a plethora of mobile MM and he pays for himself. If he where to have a points limit cap, I would say he isn't worth it under 1500.

Librarian riding with 5 TH/SS terminators is amazing.
Don't take 5 TH/SS terminators with a LRC.

Agreed on the Librarian, but no LRC?

The LRC is the best front line Land Raider Variant because it can fire everything on the move. So it sacrifices little on the advance.

What I have found when it comes to Land Raiders and their Variants is this rule of thumb:

Land Raider Crusader = Front Line Assault
Land Raider Redeemer = Hold the Mid-Field
Land Raider = Fire Support and counter assault

Not that this isn't viable, but you want to of these units. So take 10 TH/SS (2-4 LC's thrown in) terminators and 2 LRC/LRR's.

That is at least a 600 to 700 point investment which I think dilutes the rest of the army, a list like IG or other marines with strong shooting can shut that down too quickly, and you can be out assaulted by Space Wolves and Black Templars.

Marines are best played reactionary, and a single squad is good for a strategic strike.

MM/Flamer is the standard weapons loadout for them. I am totally against PF's. You want your marines running away to shoot again. Not get tied up in CC.

Depends on the army. I have having a good deal of success with a more shooty list, and Lascannons are only 10 points. PFs are standard in Pedro Lists because of stubborn.

Combat tactics only let you fail the test automatically. You can still be caught by no retreat wounds and broken off the table.

Shep hit the nail on the head, a good Marine List is built with the Tactical Squads last. Know what your list is like first, and bring your tacticals to support that.

Vindicators vs Predators
Predators are better vs Xenos
Vindicators are better vs MEQ's
Predators are better vs vehicles
Predators are better all around

Versus Vehicles is debatable. You don't scatter that bad, and Str. 10 with 2D6 pick the highest penetration still works. Vindicators also rock if you are able to bust transports carrying that particularly scary unit that must die especially in combination with Null Zone.

The Predators only really have cost on their side, but only if you take the cheapest varient, which is definately not better at tank busting.

Dreads
If your dropping them in, MM/CCW
If they are walking, 2x TL - Autocannon

I agree, though I have played with lesser effective variants.

Very true, Vindicators are better at busting heavy vehicles and transports after they move up.

Predators are better for those Skimmers that fly around and cause havoc. Or transports at long range.


The think with terminators is, you really need to go all or nothing. Yes, 10 terminators + 2 LRC is a huge investment. But its still a lot to take out. 1 LRC + 5 Termies is a lot easier to take out and doesn't have a huge impact on the game.

The big one is a huge point sink, but its an effective point sink.

The 2nd one is a smaller point sink, and an ineffective point sink.