Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"A Land Raider can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for Shooting.

Therefore, a Land Raider that has moved at combat speed can fire two weapons, and a Land Raider that has either moved at cruising speed, or has suffered a 'Crew Stunned' or Crew Shaken' result can fire a single weapon."


Does this mean I can fire one weapon twice if my landraider is stationary?

No you can only ever fire a weapon once. all POTMS alows you is to fire an extra weapon then normal

But codex trumps rulebook...

and my ass trumps codex.

NO DOUBLE FIRING!!!!!

Timmah wrote:But codex trumps rulebook...

Does the codex say any thing about firing the same gun twice? No, so it can't.

Tri wrote:

Timmah wrote:But codex trumps rulebook...

Does the codex say any thing about firing the same gun twice? No, so it can't.

This.

Alright, so can my PotMS fire after I pop smoke then?

Timmah wrote:But codex trumps rulebook...

Nowhere does it state you may fire the same weapon twice. It states one additional weapon may be fired, and includes "subject to the normal rulesfor shooting" which is that you may not fire the same weapon twice. Any way you look at it you can't. As for smoke launchers I still say no because, correct me if I'm wrong, they are not weapons & therefore are not affected by POMS.

I would surmise yes you can use POTMS to fire after popping smoke. It lets you fire one additional weapon over the normal number you can fire. You pop smoke and thus cannot fire any weapons, POTMS then kicks in and lets you fire one.

Aramoro

Timmah wrote:Alright, so can my PotMS fire after I pop smoke then?

No. Being able to fire no weapons, and being unable to fire are 2 different states. PotMS lets you fire a weapon in the first case, not the second.

Smoke Launchers cause the second.

Horst wrote:and my ass trumps codex.

NO DOUBLE FIRING!!!!!

Lol, best post ever... lmao

Anyways, as I have been posting in other areas, codex does not trump rule book. Specific trumps general, which in most cases does lead to a case of codicies being more specific than the rulebook, but there are exceptions of where rulebook limits codex rules(ork leadership never being able to be above 10 regardless of how many orks are in a unit).

Gwar! wrote:

Timmah wrote:Alright, so can my PotMS fire after I pop smoke then?

No. Being able to fire no weapons, and being unable to fire are 2 different states. PotMS lets you fire a weapon in the first case, not the second.

Smoke Launchers cause the second.

I would argue the wording is the same between crew shaken and smoke launchers.

Smoke launchers say - 'The vehicle may not fire any of it's weapons in the ......

Crew Shaken Says - 'The vehicle may not shoot in its next shooting phase.

They both use the same May not terminology as as PotMS works on one I would say it works on the other. There's a very slight semantic difference between the two wordings which make them inconsistent but not enough to make PotMS not work I don't think.

Aramoro

Firing occurs simultaneously. You can't possibly fire the same weapon twice.

Ridcully wrote:Firing occurs simultaneously. You can't possibly fire the same weapon twice.

unless your a chaos dread in which case you shoot the guy next to you twice

Tri wrote:

Ridcully wrote:Firing occurs simultaneously. You can't possibly fire the same weapon twice.

unless your a chaos dread in which case you shoot the guy next to you twice

Because it exclusivly states that you can fire twice.

Also, PotMS says you can shoot when shaken. It does not say you can shoot when you have popped smoke.

Gwar! wrote:

Also, PotMS says you can shoot when shaken. It does not say you can shoot when you have popped smoke.

Actually the rule clarifies that the rule allows you to shoot while shaken.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:

Ridcully wrote:Firing occurs simultaneously. You can't possibly fire the same weapon twice.

unless your a chaos dread in which case you shoot the guy next to you twice

Because it exclusivly states that you can fire twice.

Also, PotMS says you can shoot when shaken. It does not say you can shoot when you have popped smoke.

Then I guess we'll just have to disagree. I took that section after the 'Therefore' to be examples of where it applied, not and exhaustive list of reasons why you might not be able to fire.

Aramoro

Good thing this has not been debated before.

Would hate for . . . people not to be able to rehash points.
Or actually, that would imply bringing something new to the discussion. Even if it were just in a new form.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also note: INAT FAQ says "No".

Just to be a jerk about it, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to pull this off:

If you don't move at all, are you allowed to fire one weapon at a different target than all the rest? Technically, it's not an additional weapon: it's included in the weapon's you're allowed to fire regularly.

Thankfully, no one has tried to pull this on me in a real game, but I don't see any reason in the rules that I should be allowed to fire at two targets if my LR did not move.

Sure, that's what they meant. But that's not what they wrote.

This ^ seems to confuse me somewhat. I ALWAYS fire my machine spirit at a different target then the one I shot at. Lascannons pop Rhinos like fat kids sitting on balloons. If you don't move, you can fire all weapons at one target, then save one for the machine spirit to fire.

Bah, dang post went up twice...

But you can only fire via the machine spirit rule if you are allowed to fire an additional weapon. Since you are allowed to fire all your weapons if you are stationary, there is no additional weapon. like I said no one has pointed this out before afaik, i'm just sayin'....

Codex doesn't trump rules. Rules are rules, and in 5th edition, NO DOUBLE SHOOTING!! (lol jk)

I have never heard that interpretation of the Machine Spirit. If I don't move, I can still use the machine spirit to fire at a different target. Oh well, I suppose you can play it however you like.

Horst wrote:and my ass trumps codex.

NO DOUBLE FIRING!!!!!

sigged

Timmah wrote:Alright, so can my PotMS fire after I pop smoke then?

Vehicle that that pops smoke can fire 0 weapons.
POTMS lets you fire X + 1 weapons, where X is the number of weapons you are allowed to fire normally.
0 + 1 = 1.

kirsanth wrote:Good thing this has not been debated before.

Would hate for . . . people not to be able to rehash points.
Or actually, that would imply bringing something new to the discussion. Even if it were just in a new form.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also note: INAT FAQ says "No".

Shhhhh....Timmah hasn't found that yet!!! It's like a Dakka Scavenger Hunt...

In regards to your post Timmah:

Fire weapon twice: No.
Fire weapon through smoke: No.

Other's in this thread have provided the RAW, I shall provide some exciting and in-depth logic. "You can't see me I can't see you."

Ice Princess wrote:

Timmah wrote:Alright, so can my PotMS fire after I pop smoke then?

Vehicle that that pops smoke can fire 0 weapons.
POTMS lets you fire X + 1 weapons, where X is the number of weapons you are allowed to fire normally.
0 + 1 = 1.

Yes, you are right, 0 + 1 = 1, except the rule for launching smoke precludes you from firing any weapon during that shooting shooting phase as Gwar! and others have stated. (pg 62 BRB) Its one of those rare times that BRB trumphs codex because it is more specific.

Indeed.

0+1 = 1, but Nothing + 1 = Nothing.

By definition, "nothing" is the same as 0. Therefore, nothing + 1 = 1. This means that you can shoot while using smoke. Are you seriously trying to tell me that not being able to shoot is not the same as not being able to shoot any weapons?