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thebetter1 wrote:By definition, "nothing" is the same as 0.

No, it isn't, fyi

0 Is still something.
Nothing is Nothing.

Whether or not you equate 0 to "nothing" nothing plus 1 still equals 1 Gwar.

I do agree though that one may not use power of the machine spirit to fire after popping smoke or to fire a weapon twice.

I would think that shooting from a fog bank would be a good way to show everyone exactly where you are in said fog bank.
I'd say smoke launchers and being unable to fire has more to do with hiding yourself than your weapons magically clogging.

Normally I would agree with Gwar however, the rule states "A Land Raider can fire one more weapon then would normally be permitted." It then goes on to list examples: Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, Stunned and Shaken.

So, since the wording for popping smoke is roughly the same as Cruising Speed and Shaken, you would have to say that it would apply to popping smoke as well.

What you are saying is that the Land Raider can only fire one more then would be permitted under the following list, Combat Speed, Cruising Speed, Stunned and Shaken. However, this does not follow the wording of the rule its self. There are other examples of when a vehicle "may not fire." Ramming, for example. Since Ramming is not in that list, would you say then that the Land Raider can't fire after ramming? All of these rules use the same quantifier which is "may not fire."

Let me point out the phrase that is used in all of these examples.
Smoke Launchers "may not fire any of its weapons."
Shaken and Stunned "May not shoot"
Cruising Speed "May not fire"
Ramming "May not shoot."

But all of these rules are superseded due to the POTMS rule which is "A Land Raider can fire one more weapon then would normally be permitted." Meaning, if it a rule keeps it from firing any weapons, the POTMS allows it to fire one.

It can't fire the same weapon twice (that would require different wording) but it can fire one more weapon then would be permitted. Since normally, it could fire nothing under stunned or shaken however, it can fire one. Thus, following the same logic, it can also fire one weapon if it has popped smoke.

Also, 0 is nothing. It is one of the definitions of zero.

Gwar! wrote:Indeed.

0+1 = 1, but Nothing + 1 = Nothing.

Well technically, nothing +1 is no longer nothing

headrattle wrote:
Let me point out the phrase that is used in all of these examples.
Smoke Launchers "may not fire any of its weapons."
Shaken and Stunned "May not shoot"
Cruising Speed "May not fire"
Ramming "May not shoot."

Does PotMS explicitly mention the smoke launcher rules? No, it doesnt. So, both the PotMS and Smoke Launcher rules apply.

If the land raider moves at combat speed, it gets to fire two weapons. Unfortunately, the smoke launcher rule says that it "may not fire any of its weapons." So, you're allowed to fire two weapons but must do so while fulfilling the requirement that it may not fire any of its weapons.

solkan wrote:

headrattle wrote:
Let me point out the phrase that is used in all of these examples.
Smoke Launchers "may not fire any of its weapons."
Shaken and Stunned "May not shoot"
Cruising Speed "May not fire"
Ramming "May not shoot."

Does PotMS explicitly mention the smoke launcher rules? No, it doesnt. So, both the PotMS and Smoke Launcher rules apply.

If the land raider moves at combat speed, it gets to fire two weapons. Unfortunately, the smoke launcher rule says that it "may not fire any of its weapons." So, you're allowed to fire two weapons but must do so while fulfilling the requirement that it may not fire any of its weapons.

The PotMS does not give the Smoke Launcher rules as an example. But that does not mean that it does not apply to the smoke launcher. The rule is actually "A Land Raider can fire one more weapon then would normally be permitted." The rule is not "the Land Raider may still fire one weapon if it is Shaken, Stunned, or at Cruising Speed."
Yes, both rules actually apply. Normally, under the smoke launcher rules 0 weapons are normally permitted to fire even after combat speed. However, the PotMS rule allows you to fire one more then normally permitted.

Gwar! wrote:Indeed.

0+1 = 1, but Nothing + 1 = Nothing.

Yet another example of ridiculous disingenuous posts with this user's tag.

Its obvious to any reader that this is false.

Maybe the argument would be more convincing if you did not state things as being true that were so transparently false.

edit: And yes, the PotMS allows you to fire while popping smoke imo.

I think no one is reading the final few words in the Machine Spirit rules listed in the Space Marine Codex...

"A Land Raider may fire one more weapon then would normally be permitted. In addition this weapon can be fired at a different target unit then any other weapons, SUBJECT TO THE NORMAL RULES FOR SHOOTING."

Normal rules of shooting, if you pop smoke, you may not fire other weapons. BRB PG. 62.

... The normal rules for shooting refer to target selection and range etc. Normal rules also do not allow you to shoot when shaken, does not mean PoTMS can't shoot then too?

No. That sentence means you follow the normal rules, except that you override restrictions on how many weapons you may fire by adding another weapon you can fire.

edit: The sentence is limiting the scope that PotMS overrides the shooting rules. Meaning it only affects the number of weapons it can shoot, not other rules regarding shooting.

Dracos wrote:... The normal rules for shooting refer to target selection and range etc. Normal rules also do not allow you to shoot when shaken, does not mean PoTMS can't shoot then too?

No. That sentence means you follow the normal rules, except that you override restrictions on how many weapons you may fire by adding another weapon you can fire.

Yet another example of ridiculous disingenuous posts with this user's tag.

Its obvious to any reader that this is false.

Maybe the argument would be more convincing if you did not state things as being true that were so transparently false.

That might work if I posted 0+1=/= 1

but what I said was actually correct, and not trying to convince readers that 0+1=0.

edit: Methinks gwar does not like having his obviously incorrect posts called out as such. Notice you make no attempt to defend you post - because it is indefensible.

Topic locked for arguing.