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Today i was playing a game against tau ( i play necrons) we came apon a slight disagreement because he was using comander O'shova who has the dawn blade and wanted to assult my monolith. If i can remember correctly the entry in the tau codex under the dawn blade says " comander o'shova rolls 2D6+5 for armor penatration" but My oponent said that he got 2D6+5+strength

my question is, does the dawn blade get 2D6+5+strength or is the +5 actualy oshovas strength, so just 2D6+5?

The +5 is from his Strength.

Regardless the monolith special rule limits him to 1d6 + 5 bcz he gets it by being a "monstrous creature" as noted in his rules. However you are correct normally it is 2D6 + 5

Isn't he str 6?

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Regardless the monolith special rule limits him to 1d6 + 5 bcz he gets it by being a "monstrous creature" as noted in his rules. However you are correct normally it is 2D6 + 5

O'Shovah is not a Monsterous Creature. (as a side note, I found that I have 3 copies of the 3rd Edition Codex in my house, and 1 copy of the 4th Edition...wth??)

He receives 2d6 + 5 due to special rules for his weapon, the Dawn Blade.

Necrons are badly outdated as a codex. The monolith allows no bonus to armor penetration and also sports a clarifying sentence (S+1d6 only) that only serves to mess things up. If your weapon has multiple dice to start with it's not a bonus, right?

O'Shovah is Strength 5. The Dawn Blade entry looks to be Strength + 2d6 (it would make sense, too). Any way you look at it, the Monolith's Living Metal rule nulls one of the dice. Page 21:

[i]" ... weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice [...] do not get the extra dice against the Monolith."

He is limited to 1d6+5, as per the 'cron codex.

The dawn blade entry states "... O'shovah rolls 2d6+5 when rolling to penetrate the armor of a vehicle" (pg. 44 Tau Empires Codex) not Strength+2d6 (although that is its effect.) your opponent was ling to you. but, as others have pointed out, against a monolith he wouldn't get the extra die.

(i only point this out to be somewhat pedantic and on the case that there is something that might modify O'Shovah's strength, the rules may still give him 5+2d6 to penetrate. not that i think its a good argument, i think its a case of bad RAW, (i also cant think of any strength modifying things, so it may be irrelevant.)

Fizzywig wrote:The dawn blade entry states "... O'shovah rolls 2d6+5 when rolling to penetrate the armor of a vehicle" (pg. 44 Tau Empires Codex) not Strength+2d6 (although that is its effect.) your opponent was ling to you. but, as others have pointed out, against a monolith he wouldn't get the extra die.

(i only point this out to be somewhat pedantic and on the case that there is something that might modify O'Shovah's strength, the rules may still give him 5+2d6 to penetrate. not that i think its a good argument, i think its a case of bad RAW, (i also cant think of any strength modifying things, so it may be irrelevant.)

No extra dice = no extra dice. 1d6 + 5, means that O'Shovah will never even be able to glance a Monolith.

I don't see how you got the idea that I thought you might get 2 dice from when I said "against a monolith he wouldn't get the extra die."

Because of the wonderful crystal clear rules and examples provided by our providers, Games Workshop, O'shavah gets....2D6+5 versus the monoliths.

It's not right, fair or supported by the intentions of the Monolith Living Metal rule, but it is whats written.

Hopefully GW will realise their oversight for the next round of updates (whenever that may be)

Andrew

No, the Monolith specifcialy states 1D6+S only, so Farsight gets 1D6+5

Che-Vito wrote:
O'Shovah is not a Monsterous Creature. (as a side note, I found that I have 3 copies of the 3rd Edition Codex in my house, and 1 copy of the 4th Edition...wth??)

He receives 2d6 + 5 due to special rules for his weapon, the Dawn Blade.

In the code, I believe it makes mention that the dawn blade makes O'Shova "count as a monstrous creature in close combat", thus ignoring armour & receiving the 2D6. My fault for not being clear enough, as I can see where

people would get the idea that I think he is a Monstrous creature all the time. Poor wording on my part.

Dorian, the rules for the dawn blade say nothing about monstrous creature. they give the effect, but they make no claim that "O'Shovah counts as a monstorous creature in close combat"

Fizzywig wrote:Dorian, the rules for the dawn blade say nothing about monstrous creature. they give the effect, but they make no claim that "O'Shovah counts as a monstorous creature in close combat"

Must have been the old one, I could swear it made mention in one of them. Oh, well I'll admit I was wrong.

there was no doubt in my mind that the monolith negated the 2d6 part, that was not the question. we were confused because for dawn blade it says 2d6+5 but in the BRB it states that for vehicle penetration you add your strength. so we just werent sure if it was just 2d6+5 as stated in the codex or if it was 2d6+5+strength. the question arose because the monolith limits him to 1d6 so if it was 1d6+5 he couldnt touch it. but if it was 1d6+5+strength he would be able to do damage to it. =)

RustyNecron wrote:there was no doubt in my mind that the monolith negated the 2d6 part, that was not the question. we were confused because for dawn blade it says 2d6+5 but in the BRB it states that for vehicle penetration you add your strength. so we just werent sure if it was just 2d6+5 as stated in the codex or if it was 2d6+5+strength. the question arose because the monolith limits him to 1d6 so if it was 1d6+5 he couldnt touch it. but if it was 1d6+5+strength he would be able to do damage to it. =)

2d6 + 5 is a special modification to the normal rule for armor penetration 1d6 + Strength, replacing that mechanic. It says you roll 2d6 + 5 for Armor Pen., so that is exactly what you roll.

HolyCause wrote:O'Shovah is Strength 5. The Dawn Blade entry looks to be Strength + 2d6 (it would make sense, too). Any way you look at it, the Monolith's Living Metal rule nulls one of the dice. Page 21:

[i]" ... weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice [...] do not get the extra dice against the Monolith."

He is limited to 1d6+5, as per the 'cron codex.

But how can you assume these are being counted as 'extra dice' and not his 'normal dice' based on the weapons rules. Obviously this is a VERY grey area, but I'm in the camp that feels that items that 'list their armor pen' as a value, not saying they roll an extra...are not affected by Living Metal ruling as written.

Extra dice or not, it doesn't matter. The Necron codex (newer reprint) is quite specific, ST plus 1d6 only, no matter what.

Farseer Faenyin wrote:

HolyCause wrote:O'Shovah is Strength 5. The Dawn Blade entry looks to be Strength + 2d6 (it would make sense, too). Any way you look at it, the Monolith's Living Metal rule nulls one of the dice. Page 21:

[i]" ... weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice [...] do not get the extra dice against the Monolith."

He is limited to 1d6+5, as per the 'cron codex.

But how can you assume these are being counted as 'extra dice' and not his 'normal dice' based on the weapons rules. Obviously this is a VERY grey area, but I'm in the camp that feels that items that 'list their armor pen' as a value, not saying they roll an extra...are not affected by Living Metal ruling as written.

Thing is though, if you start going like that, then almost any 2D6 pen weapon/ability/ect. can, because MOST of them don't say "Extra dice", but rather their "normal dice". Plus, in the second printing of the codex, it makes a note to say that in practice, weapons roll unaugmented strength + 1D6 no matter what.

EDIT: Yeah, what Don_Mondo said

I would tend to side, not that anyone asked, those that say it's 2d6+5 as this is a special weapon and we all know that GW states that special rules override regular rules.

The Dawn Blade gives a special rule that allows the wielder to role 2d6+5.

The living metal reduces "extra" dice.

Both rules are correct and function normally; however, since the dawn blade's special ability is not extra dice, it is not affected by the monolith's ability.

My feeling is that the monolith's ability was written to protect it from melta fire anyway.

My 2 cents.

don_mondo wrote:The Necron codex (newer reprint) is quite specific, ST plus 1d6 only, no matter what.

Does it say "never", "always", or any such actually specificly overriding wording?
Actual question, as I have only the older printing.

So the only real way to destroy a monolith is with railgun/lascannon fire? Seems a bit overpowering. I haven't played against necron yet, just asking.

The best way to destroy a monolith is to kill the necron models and cause them to phase out.

kirsanth wrote:The best way to destroy a monolith is to kill the necron models and cause them to phase out.

Still seems a little overpowering that the only way you can get rid of a unit is by killing the 50 other models on the table.

Kirsanth, the wording is "In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

EDIT:Agnosto: LOL, don't worry, Necrons are among the easier armies to beat atm

Excellent. Thank you.

Eight Ball wrote:EDIT:Agnosto: LOL, don't worry, Necrons are among the easier armies to beat atm

So are my Tau, unfortunately.

agnosto wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The best way to destroy a monolith is to kill the necron models and cause them to phase out.

Still seems a little overpowering that the only way you can get rid of a unit is by killing the 50 other models on the table.

Two Words:
Sweeping Advance.

Oh look, my Wolf Lord just BBQ'd 20 Warriors.

Go me!