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pff, silly Gwar, who uses full 20-man squads of warriors?

Apparently strength is still doubled with the use of power weapons:

"Q. Does a model with a powerfist/claw that
attacks a Monolith get to double its Strength for
armour penetration rolls?
A. Yes, powerfists/claws, thunder hammers, and so on still double their user’s Strength when
attacking a Monolith."

Found this on GW's website in the FAQ. Too bad Dawn Blade isn't considered a power weapon which may explain why the player thought he should add his strength again.

Yep, that's the "unaugmented strength of the weapon" bit. Weapon, not user, so powerfists, singing spears, etc still work.

Whether or not the Dawn Blade gets to use the 2d6 + 5 against a monolith depends on whether you also allow other weapons, like spore mines and Eldrich Storm, which also don't phrase their penetration as specifically xD6 + S. In all three cases the addition to the 2D6 has been equal to that of their strength, which i believe ought to fit the profile. But i don't care either way. My opponents are not RAW efficionados, and they would count it as 1D6 + 5.

I think we all realize you don't add your strength to that afterwards.

Actually, from the wording, I would parse it as follows:
1) Firstly, we define the Dawn Blade as a Power Weapon (yes, it isn't even a CCW by the rules. Go Team GW), or if you want to be anal, a Normal CCW that allows no Armour Saves to be taken.

2) Instead of Penetrating armour normally, Commander Farsight instead rolls 2D6+5 for every successful hit.

3) The Monolith says that you roll for the weapons unaugmented strength + 1D6, and I quote, "No matter what".

4) As we define the Dawn Blade to be a Power Weapon, the unaugmented strength is the same as the model carrying it (as opposed to, say, a Power Fist, who's unaugmented strength is double the strength of the weilder).

5) Therefore, "Specific > General" kicks in. Which rule is more specific? The Dawn Blade deals with rolling to penetrate agaonst all vehicles. Living Metal refers to a single, specific model, the Monolith. In addition, Living Metal quite clearly states "no matter what", thus overriding the Dawn Blades special rules anyway.

6) Thus, I conclude that Commander Farsight, when rolling to penetrate in Assault against a Necron Monolith, will Roll 1D6 and add his strength of 5, leading to a result of 6 to 11.

7) As the Monoliths Rear Armour Value is 14, it is statistically impossible for Commander Farsight to even cause a glancing hit.

Wraithcannons use their strength of X and a d6 that penetrates on a 5 or 6.

I'm surprised you dropped the 'different mechanic' approach. Did you buy another necron codex?

Ridcully wrote:Wraithcannons use their strength of X and a d6 that penetrates on a 5 or 6.

I'm surprised you dropped the 'different mechanic' approach. Did you buy another necron codex?

Nah, I just learnt to STFU until people quote the new one

As for Wraithcannons, They do indeed roll x+D6. However, they still Autoglance on a 3-4 and Pen on a 5-6, because nothing Living Metal does negates that rule

Gwar! wrote:As for Wraithcannons, They do indeed roll x+D6. However, they still Autoglance on a 3-4 and Pen on a 5-6, because nothing Living Metal does negates that rule

As the weapon is attacking the monolith, any armour penetration roll made must be 1d6 + S. They roll a dice to penetrate, no?

Ridcully wrote:

Gwar! wrote:As for Wraithcannons, They do indeed roll x+D6. However, they still Autoglance on a 3-4 and Pen on a 5-6, because nothing Living Metal does negates that rule

As the weapon is attacking the monolith, any armour penetration roll made must be 1d6 + S. They roll a dice to penetrate, no?

You are mixing up the rules.

You Roll S+D6 just fine. Woop de do, you can get an Armour Penetration result of 1-6. GO U! The Wraithcannon has a special rule that states "Against targets with an Armour Value, a wraithcannon always inflicts a glancing hit on a roll of 3 or 4, and a Penetrating hit on a roll of 5 or 6".

Now, I admit, it is a little vague. It can mean one of three things:
If the Roll to Hit is a 3,4,5 or 6.
If the Roll to Penetrate is a 3,4,5 or 6.
A totally Separate Roll of 3,4,5 or 6 which you roll as well as X+D6.

Ignoring the first option (you get to meet Mr Brick and Mrs Pillowcase if you pull that), either of the other 2 cause the Glance/Pen anyway. This is because, even though you are rolling X+D6, it doesn't actually matter, as the Wraith Cannon Says "X happens when Y is rolled" and the most you can get is 6 anyway, when the lowest AV in 40k is 9. So, you roll to penetrate as normal, Get a result of 1-6, then either apply the special rule on the result of that roll or roll the separate dice to find out WTF happens.

Nothing in the Living Metal rule prevents that, as you are still rolling S+D6 to penetrate.

I wasn't trying to say they don't work, I think i just misunderstood your previous post as saying the roll is separate from S+D6 entirely. I agree and play as above.

So what you're saying is that the only way that tau could ever outright destroy a monolith is with railguns? There's only one weapon in the entire codex that can hurt it? I guess I'll just have to refuse to play necrons, ever.

Yes - however Orks can only really destroy it with two weapons at range, a lucky SAG hit or a ZZap gun, and have to be very lucky with Powerfists - really only a warboss has much luck.

Mind you I doubt you'll find many necron armies, and fewer with Monoliths...

agnosto wrote:So what you're saying is that the only way that tau could ever outright destroy a monolith is with railguns? There's only one weapon in the entire codex that can hurt it?

Nobody is saying that, because it isn't true.

You'd refuse to play against Necrons because you find their vehicle hard to destroy? Lol.

Edit: Ok apparently Nosferatu1001 is saying that... but it's still not true.

Ridcully wrote:

agnosto wrote:So what you're saying is that the only way that tau could ever outright destroy a monolith is with railguns? There's only one weapon in the entire codex that can hurt it?

Nobody is saying that, because it isn't true.

You'd refuse to play against Necrons because you find their vehicle hard to destroy? Lol.

Edit: Ok apparently Nosferatu1001 is saying that... but it's still not true.

No, I just believe that every unit in the game should be killable by any other army. If there is an army that has an uber-cheese unit that is only killable in certain situations with certain weapons, there's no point in playing at all; they'll march that one unit around and wipe my tau plow for me.

Me: Ok, I hit your ubercheese unit with my general that has a power weapon.
Opponent: Sorry, it doesn't work; the moon is not full tonight and you didn't tap your toes 3 times before you rolled the dice.
Me: What!?!?!?
Opponent: See it says in my codex that the only way to destroy this unit is to follow these specific guidelines.


If I ever play necrons I'll just field 2 full units of broadsides and hope for the best I guess.

agnosto wrote:

Ridcully wrote:

agnosto wrote:So what you're saying is that the only way that tau could ever outright destroy a monolith is with railguns? There's only one weapon in the entire codex that can hurt it?

Nobody is saying that, because it isn't true.

You'd refuse to play against Necrons because you find their vehicle hard to destroy? Lol.

Edit: Ok apparently Nosferatu1001 is saying that... but it's still not true.

No, I just believe that every unit in the game should be killable by any other army. If there is an army that has an uber-cheese unit that is only killable in certain situations with certain weapons, there's no point in playing at all; they'll march that one unit around and wipe my tau plow for me.

Me: Ok, I hit your ubercheese unit with my general that has a power weapon.
Opponent: Sorry, it doesn't work; the moon is not full tonight and you didn't tap your toes 3 times before you rolled the dice.
Me: What!?!?!?
Opponent: See it says in my codex that the only way to destroy this unit is to follow these specific guidelines.


If I ever play necrons I'll just field 2 full units of broadsides and hope for the best I guess.

FYI the other weapon that can outright kill a monolith is the fusion blaster... which your army can potentially have in abundance. It may surprise you to know that the fusion blaster is the only additional dice rolling weapon affected by the living metal rule. Other than that, it's basically a land raider to you.

It may also surprise you to know that it's easier to penetrate and then outright destroy a Monolith using a Hammerhead, than it is to penetrate and then outright destroy a Hammerhead (Disruption pods, front armour) using a Hammerhead.

Ridcully wrote:FYI the other weapon that can outright kill a monolith is the fusion blaster... which your army can potentially have in abundance. It may surprise you to know that the fusion blaster is the only additional dice rolling weapon affected by the living metal rule. Other than that, it's basically a land raider to you.

It may also surprise you to know that it's easier to penetrate and then outright destroy a Monolith using a Hammerhead, than it is to penetrate and then outright destroy a Hammerhead (Disruption pods, front armour) using a Hammerhead.

Yeah, I would have to roll a 6 with fusion blasters to pen.

Let me know when hammerheads can deep strike, DPs don't work inside 12".

Meh, I was just panicking anyway. I just got this army and don't have any hammerheads yet so if I face an opponent with a monolith and I can't pop it with my broadsides before it hits my lines, I'll lose horribly; such is life.

Good lord, what is this whining?

You do realise that the best way to kill a monolith is to ignore it and force a phase out?

Gwar! wrote:Good lord, what is this whining?

You do realise that the best way to kill a monolith is to ignore it and force a phase out?

Good lord, where are your manners? I admitted in my last post that I was overreacting.

Yeah and I'll just start ignoring land raiders while I'm at it; at least I can pop them with a fusion blaster.

There are several necron players at the store I frequent and they routinely field 2 monoliths per game. I haven't faced either one of them yet and was trying to think how my tau army could do it.

agnosto wrote:Good lord, where are your manners?

I left them in my special place when you overreacted

Yeah and I'll just start ignoring land raiders while I'm at it; at least I can pop them with a fusion blaster.

You can pop Monoliths with them too. Or why not take some Broadsides?

There are several necron players at the store I frequent and they routinely field 2 monoliths per game. I haven't faced either one of them yet and was trying to think how my tau army could do it.

If they have 2 Monoliths, they have less Necrons for you to kill to force Phase out.

agnosto wrote:So what you're saying is that the only way that tau could ever outright destroy a monolith is with railguns? There's only one weapon in the entire codex that can hurt it? I guess I'll just have to refuse to play necrons, ever.

Quit your whining.

Dark Eldar have no shooting weapons that can destroy a Monolith, as the highest S weapon they have is the Dark Lance/Blaster at S 8. In assault, they can hope for sixes with Haywire grenades. Some people might allow a Talos a chance to pen a Monolith, but I don't even wanna get into that debate.

Saldiven wrote:

agnosto wrote:So what you're saying is that the only way that tau could ever outright destroy a monolith is with railguns? There's only one weapon in the entire codex that can hurt it? I guess I'll just have to refuse to play necrons, ever.

Quit your whining.

Dark Eldar have no shooting weapons that can destroy a Monolith, as the highest S weapon they have is the Dark Lance/Blaster at S 8. In assault, they can hope for sixes with Haywire grenades. Some people might allow a Talos a chance to pen a Monolith, but I don't even wanna get into that debate.

Yeah but the last time DE got a codex was before the Necrons were even around...

agnosto wrote:Yeah but the last time DE got a codex was before the Necrons were even around...

Errrm... No. Necrons were around long before the 3rd Edition Dark Eldar codex.

Gwar! wrote:

agnosto wrote:Yeah but the last time DE got a codex was before the Necrons were even around...

Errrm... No. Necrons were around long before the 3rd Edition Dark Eldar codex.

I was being facetious since most DE players gripe about how old their codex is.

It's the weird GW time warp--the Dark Eldar codex was released, then the Necron codex was released, then the revised Dark Eldar codex came out. So the Dark Eldar have even had more codex releases than then Necrons.

you are mad that tau only have one weapon that can destroy a monolith easily?!? dude, the railgun is one of the best weapons IN THE GAME. we as tau players have the easiest way to destroy monoliths. if you as a tau player see a necron player with 2 monoliths, you should be dancing with glee the phase out number of them will be horrendously small and you have a better than even chance of popping a monolith or even 2.

S10 AP 1 Range 72" = Pretty brutal.

Ridcully wrote:FYI the other weapon that can outright kill a monolith is the fusion blaster... which your army can potentially have in abundance. It may surprise you to know that the fusion blaster is the only additional dice rolling weapon affected by the living metal rule. Other than that, it's basically a land raider to you.

It may also surprise you to know that it's easier to penetrate and then outright destroy a Monolith using a Hammerhead, than it is to penetrate and then outright destroy a Hammerhead (Disruption pods, front armour) using a Hammerhead.

A Fusion Blaster is still only S8 though, meaning you need a 6 to glance, it's just that you get the +1 to the damage table, which means it takes 36 shots which hit the monolith for 1 destroyed result.

Compare to Tyranid shooting.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Ridcully wrote:FYI the other weapon that can outright kill a monolith is the fusion blaster... which your army can potentially have in abundance. It may surprise you to know that the fusion blaster is the only additional dice rolling weapon affected by the living metal rule. Other than that, it's basically a land raider to you.

It may also surprise you to know that it's easier to penetrate and then outright destroy a Monolith using a Hammerhead, than it is to penetrate and then outright destroy a Hammerhead (Disruption pods, front armour) using a Hammerhead.

A Fusion Blaster is still only S8 though, meaning you need a 6 to glance, it's just that you get the +1 to the damage table, which means it takes 36 shots which hit the monolith for 1 destroyed result.

You do realize i already knew all of that already, right?

If i come across as vague, it's to avoid posting stats and rules.

I love people whining about how monoliths are so hard to kill, they are rediculously hard to kill. that is the point.

the only time to attack a monolith is in hth with a unit to gain an extra move in the assault phase, and maybe have a go at it (prolly fail) then move on.

having to kill only 75% of your opponent's army - pariahs and monoliths is freaking hilarious. to hear someone say that necrons are competitive is like hearing a guardsmen doesn't cost enough.