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Folks,
As the title suggests, I'm having a bit of a dilema over whether to pack an Assault or Vanguard into my armylist. This isn't intending to be a generic "X is better than Y", as this unit will be fitting into the following:
1. The unit will be 8-9 strong, and accompanied by a Librarian - for this I'm considering "Null Zone" and "Force Dome", so he'll be supporting the unit.
2. The people will NOT be wearing Jump Packs, but instead will be mounted in a Rhino
3. The Sgt. will be carrying a Thunderhammer
4. They will be played in games of 1k - 1500

Obviously there are benefits and drawbacks from both here - i.e. Assault squad being great value for money and tough albative wounds, vs Vanguard potentially delivering the punch which warrents a supporting character. I've been tearing my hair out on this one, so I'd like to open the floor to you fine fellows - perhaps you have a new perspective or can speak from experience on this?

Please, don't take Vanguard. They're cool models and look good on paper, but they're far too expensive for what they do.

You want an elite assault unit? Take Assault Terminators instead.

Dracos wrote:The fact that they are going to be a rhino means you will really not get any assaults out of there. You are going to have to expect to sit in the open for a turn, and possibly receive an assault. Because of this, I'd say the assault squad is a better idea as the ablative wounds come cheaper. If this was coming out of a landraider, I'd say the vanguard. But the rhino says to me assault squad.

You can assault out of Rhinos, IIRC. You just have to wait a turn. So you sit in, shoot out or smoke, jump out and charge next turn.

The fact that they are going to be a rhino means you will really not get any assaults out of there. You are going to have to expect to sit in the open for a turn, and possibly receive an assault. Because of this, I'd say the assault squad is a better idea as the ablative wounds come cheaper. If this was coming out of a landraider, I'd say the vanguard. But the rhino says to me assault squad.

Assault marines. You could take 3 squads for the cost of a single kitted out vanguard squad, or 2 for the price of an unmodified vanguard squad.

pretre wrote:You can assault out of Rhinos, IIRC. You just have to wait a turn. So you sit in, shoot out or smoke, jump out and charge next turn.

This tactic can be done, if you move into position and do not get surrounded. Getting surrounded and having the rhino blown up is a risk when doing this.

Dracos wrote:

pretre wrote:You can assault out of Rhinos, IIRC. You just have to wait a turn. So you sit in, shoot out or smoke, jump out and charge next turn.

This tactic can be done, if you move into position and do not get surrounded. Getting surrounded and having the rhino blown up is a risk when doing this.

Its really a marginal risk. Since you can move and assault normally as long as you disembark before the vehicle moves, you still have an effective 15" threat radius (3" disembark + 6" move + 6" assault). Not much the enemy has can completely surround a Rhino from within 10" unless your playing an extremely fast opponent and even then it will take multiple units to hem in one Rhino.

That said, I think in the 1000-1500 point range the assault squad is a better buy. Get yourself a flamer or two for prepping assault targets and your ready to go. Powerfist on the Sergeant and you've got a good utility unit. Very cheap too, at least relative to the vanguard. I like the Vanguard's Heroic Intervention ability, but you need a couple of locator beacons before it really pays off and those points add up very quickly in 1500 and below.

Canonness Rory wrote:Assault marines. You could take 3 squads for the cost of a single kitted out vanguard squad, or 2 for the price of an unmodified vanguard squad.

I dont know where you get those numbers from. vanguard without stuff cost a little over 200. Assault squads aint THAT cheap.

But yes vanguard in rhinos arent worth it, simply because in direct comparison honor guard get a 2+ save for free, and the banner option.

I don't take Assault Marines or Vanguard Veterans in my vanilla SM army.
Its a different story for my BA's.
I'd opt for the Vanguard, simply more bang for the bucks.

Both choices suck, IMO. Assault terminators are the premiere SM assault unit.

ok... I use a VERY similar squad... assault squad, sarge with hammer / stormshield, librarian attached. I know you said you don't want to have them with jump packs... I ask... why?

I give the librarian null zone / avenger. the assault squad is basically there to ensure the enemy doesn't kill my librarian. he flies around, dropping avenger templates on people, casting null zone to follow in the wake of my assault terminators. you need to understand that assault marines suck in hand to hand. Mine are a complete support unit... they will counter charge to help out a tac squad, or if a squad of ork boyz is whittled down already they will flame and charge that, but what they are really useful for is the 3 flamer templates they put out. yesterday, I played against a space wovles plyaer. I pen 6'd his rhino, so he had to get out in a nice, tight cluster... my assault marines, with their 12" move, flew in over some impassable terrain (something you cannot do in a rhino) and flamed them... the look on his face when I told him he had 7 ap3 ignore cover wounds, and 16 regular armor saves was pretty crazy.

they are great for close range shooting support. jump packs facilitate this. they are NOT good in hand to hand, and without mobility, they will never get into flamer range alive. I wouldn't want to trust that mobility of such an expensive unit to a rhino.

Horst wrote:ok... I use a VERY similar squad... assault squad, sarge with hammer / stormshield, librarian attached. I know you said you don't want to have them with jump packs... I ask... why?

I give the librarian null zone / avenger. the assault squad is basically there to ensure the enemy doesn't kill my librarian. he flies around, dropping avenger templates on people, casting null zone to follow in the wake of my assault terminators. you need to understand that assault marines suck in hand to hand. Mine are a complete support unit... they will counter charge to help out a tac squad, or if a squad of ork boyz is whittled down already they will flame and charge that, but what they are really useful for is the 3 flamer templates they put out. yesterday, I played against a space wovles plyaer. I pen 6'd his rhino, so he had to get out in a nice, tight cluster... my assault marines, with their 12" move, flew in over some impassable terrain (something you cannot do in a rhino) and flamed them... the look on his face when I told him he had 7 ap3 ignore cover wounds, and 16 regular armor saves was pretty crazy.

they are great for close range shooting support. jump packs facilitate this. they are NOT good in hand to hand, and without mobility, they will never get into flamer range alive. I wouldn't want to trust that mobility of such an expensive unit to a rhino.

This is a good point. They can put flamer templates where you want them, when you want them there.

For the flamer template goodness, I run 5 TH/SS termies, Vulkan, and a librarian in a LR. Get out, avenger + HF, then assault. Very similar idea but instead of splitting the Terminators and flamer templates into 2 units, they stick together.

Voronesh wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Assault marines. You could take 3 squads for the cost of a single kitted out vanguard squad, or 2 for the price of an unmodified vanguard squad.

I dont know where you get those numbers from. vanguard without stuff cost a little over 200. Assault squads aint THAT cheap.

But yes vanguard in rhinos arent worth it, simply because in direct comparison honor guard get a 2+ save for free, and the banner option.

Assault Squad:
100 pts.

Vanguard Squad with rhino:
160

So 40 points short of being double the cost. For, what, a single power weapon and 5 more attacks?

Horst, in all truthfullness I can see the advantages of a jump-packing Assault squad over the Rhino. However, I'm a horrically slow painter and have finally gotten my Librarian completed (Ezeikel), so part of the equation is working with what I've got!

Though you do raise a good point - perhaps focusing on having the assault squad as a counter-attack unit - 5 men with Flammer and Thunderhammer, and give Avenger back to the Librarian (I used it in my last tournament, though unfortunately only got to use it against Nobs and Bloodcrushers!).... Could this be the way forward?