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40K evolved into its 5th edition rules, yet most of the codices are outdated. While they may be somewhat compatible, they weren't design specifically for the new edition. And when they finally updates them, the older 5th edition codices become outdated and under powered. (I learn that from reading a lot, not from experience. Correct me where I am mistaking, please).

Is this the only game that does this?

Say Warmachine, for example. They are upgrading the game to Warmachine Mk.II, and with that they upgrade all of their factions and all the units to Mk.II, all at the same time. Instead of updating 1 at a time. And it is a game with only 4+1new faction, so even if they update it 1 at a time, it will only take 5 releases, more or less.

For 40K, there are a ton of factions including the sub factions like Space Wolves. And they do this 1 at a time, a few times a year. So basically, you don't get a full 5E experience until many years down the road (perhaps only near 5E's end?). And even then they may not be fully balanced since the books are designed SO far apart from each other. (I assume this is where the notion of "the newest codex is the most powerful" came from).

Isn't this a bit clumsy for a game this widely played? Or is this a normal thing for the TTG industry?

I think 40k can only get away with this due to its popularity. If a new company started out this way, there's no way anybody would want to collect and play.

Personally I would like to see fluff and rules kept away from each other so that we could possibly get all rules in one book. It'll never happen, but a boy can dream.

You must also give thought to the scope of the company, they have 10+ codex's that take up to 8 months to fully develop, 100's of models that they might have to redo. An uncountable amount of fluff to update change,etc.

For a international company, they do very well IMHO. When you consider the scope of it all, [forgeworld, black library, video game section, plus the mainstream GW] and everything they have to do, they are doing fine. They also have to think about sales, they are shareholder driven.

If you have a real problem, buy enough shares to force them to adopt this insanely impractical method of updating and see how well your shares do.

*season post with a pinch of salt*

I think people only play this game for 1. community, 2. fluff/art/minis are great (basically the 40K setting) 3. because they are TTGers and 40K is played by default (like D&D is for RPG).

I have always been drawn to 40K. But when I think about it, it is never because of the 40K game, but the table top game genre in general plus the 40K setting. The rule set not so much.

The marketing worse. I don't mind being ripped off if I do it willingly. I am ok with that.

But I think the rules developers and the marketing and general company leadership are doing a GREAT diservice to the generations of art, minis, fluff people who had worked on the 40K property. They did and are making such awesome things, yet marred by a flawed rule set and crappy release style.

Did they end 4E when 4E was just about to be completed (ie. all armies codices released)? So is the same thing going to happen to 5th?

Like you said, a boy can dream. And I dream of the day they respect their game enough to treat it with due respect, release a complete game for all factions at once, and to make their money, add supplements that expands upon them.

Iron Priest wrote:I think 40k can only get away with this due to its popularity. If a new company started out this way, there's no way anybody would want to collect and play.

Its interesting to note that they became so big and successful while using this same model, so you can understand why they'd be hesitant to drop it.

Jack

xenoss wrote:
The marketing worse. I don't mind being ripped off if I do it willingly. I am ok with that.

But I think the rules developers and the marketing and general company leadership are doing a GREAT diservice to the generations of art, minis, fluff people who had worked on the 40K property. They did and are making such awesome things, yet marred by a flawed rule set and crappy release style.

GW die-hard takes the stage

You state " the rules developers and the marketing and general company leadership are doing a GREAT diservice to the generations of art, minis, fluff people who had worked on the 40K property"

Has City Fight, re-release of Space Hulk and Apocalypse brought shame to the gaming in 40K, I highly doubt this. The likes of Phil Kelly have been on board since 3rd edition or earlier, so they can only disservice themselves, which I total do not feel is happening, they are raising the standard of gaming 40k/fantasy.

You state "They did and are making such awesome things, yet marred by a flawed rule set and crappy release style."

From what I can tell form people I game with talk to around my area is that 5th edition is the best yet, gaming flows easier, faster and really gets the players involved. The GT's and other large gaming functions by rights should dry up and die according to this, however they only keep getting bigger, well in the land down under around my area they have, dont know about the rest of the world. I personally feel they are heading in the right direction.

*season once again with a helping of salt*

Well please understand that I am at most a newbie, at best an outsider.

But what I mean isn't so much 5E being a disservice to the previous editions. Rather, what I meant is the art/mini/fluff is great yet the rules aren't the greatest; for all editions. And thus the rules side of things is a let down to the art/mini/fluff that I think are so good.

I am well aware of 40K's popularity. But here you are implying its growing popularity is a result of it being a good game, and I disagree. Things can become popular for a number of reasons, and it is not my point to discover why. D&D is hardly the best rpg system, it is FAR from being that, and yet it is the most popular. Similarly in TTG, I would argue that this is a similar case. 40K may be an adequet game system, but I would ask if this is the best game you have played? If so, what other TTGs have you played?

And it is due to the fact that this game system is only adequet that I feel it is letting the art/mini/fluff down. I think it could easily be much much better. Especially considering the fact that GW has been known to come up with excellent rule sets like SH and Blood Bowl, among others. It is a shame that not all codices are release for 5E, such that as a new guy, I could jump into the game with any faction I want knowing that are all designed and balanced for 5E. To do that, perhaps I'll have to wait many more years until near the end of 5E's product life cycle. I guess I wish for a chance to jump into 40K the same way I could Warmachine Mk.II; I am FAR more tempted by 40K's setting...

xenoss wrote:D&D is hardly the best rpg system, it is FAR from being that, and yet it is the most popular.

It's an interesting example. D&D 2nd, 3rd and 4th are wildly different games from each other, with wildly different design goals and playing styles. Yet 2nd ed D&D dominated RPG sales, 3rd ed D&D dominated sales, and 4th ed D&D dominated sales.

It can't be because each in turn just happened to have an utterly superior ruleset to everything else out there, no, it's because the power of the brand really matters. Even if you aren't automatically going to buy it just because it has D&D stamped on the cover, you're more likely to pay attention to it. 40K is the same.

But there's another lesson in the comparison to D&D. There was a large community dedicated to hating each of the D&D rulesets as well. Some hate a new version and love and old version. Some hate each version as it comes along. Plenty of them hated it but played anyway, and for much the same reasons as 40K players (because they loved one or more of the worlds it was set in or because it was the game their friends played). Most of them talked about some other system or other that did this or that so much better. Being the big guy means you get more haters as well.



To answer the OP's question, 40K is the only game that does this, because it's the only game that's been around twenty years and is still releasing at a constant rate. Most minis companies have had a bad habit of collapsing after a few years, so they've never reached the number of factions and units choices of 40K, so we haven't gotten to see if they'd eventually adopt the staggered release pattern of GW.

I'm not sure if GW's method is inevitable or not. We might know in 15 years, though.

There are better rules out there... that do not have the necessity of model renewals to play.

Warhammer / WH40k and Flames of War, ar as far as now, the only ones that I've seen pubblicing codex over codex just to sell miniatures.

Luckily free rules and pay rules are found out there. Historicals , fantasy and science - fiction alike and the great thing is that they do not need at all a specific model. For what you might want, you can also use your old army men of childhood to play.

A thorough set of "official" FAQs and eratta would easily fix the 'convert to 5th ed' process for every codex out there. Or they could do as they did when 3rd ed came out and include a min-dex for every army as part of the main rulebook. My biggest dissatisfaction with GW is their lack of customer support in rules and FAQs. But as they have told me, we're a miniature company, not a game company, the rules aren't important..................

Squig_herder wrote:
For a international company, they do very well IMHO.

HI all.
To reply to the OP , yes GW is the only TTG producer that has so low reguard for game play issues.
''the games are JUST THE ICING ON THE CAKE...'' according to JJ.

Games Workshop sold its game developing soul to a bunch of closed minded accountants who promised untold riches as a PLC.
GW as a PLC manages to loose money !!! Crap deal or what!
The coperate managment, ONLY seem to be able to manage to FUBAR the buisness, more than the 'bunch of enthusisatic amateurs' ever did!

For a international company,run by short sighted money grabbing morons, they do very well IMHO.

There, I fixed it !

TTFN
lanrak.

xenoss wrote:Isn't this a bit clumsy for a game this widely played? Or is this a normal thing for the TTG industry?

Yes, and yes, veteran players have grown accustomed to the planned obsolescence, it is the way it is.

Im now painting Crimson Fists, I figure no matter what happens they will always be 10 man squads with flamers, rocket launchers and fists...

but who knows...

Good luck

I understand they have X number of codices to update and they can't have them all completed upon rules release (they aren't the only company to do this, I believe DBM to DBMM had army book issues), but what I would like to see is a FAQ or errata tying up some of the lose ends in the old codices until they can get an updated one published. Where ever old codices break from the new rule mechanics call it out in a separate PDF with the solution (and not roll d6 1-3 you are right and 4-6 your opponent is right).

Just my 2 cents,
Chris

40k does this because their objective is constant, continuous revenue generation, and well-paced evolution is good for that.

If 40k were to keep starting over, then it's a series of major revolution, and the revenue isn't as steady or predictable.

That's how it is. If you don't like it, then you're kinda stuck, because GW won't be moving away from this for the foreseeable future.


But the idea that this is specifically a problem is purely personal opinion. Clearly, it works for GW. It's also good for casual players who don't need to update their armies as often.