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This is open for discussion. Please don't spam NIDZILLA!!!!!!!! and leave it at that. Actually try and think about working with WoN and Stealers infiltrating ect.

But nidzilla is the only viable 5th edition Tyranid army.

Broken Loose wrote:But nidzilla is the only viable 5th edition Tyranid army.

Agreed. There is simply no other way to be competitive with them. This will change when the new codex comes out, but for now you just have to wait.

I'm not a Nids player, but I know I hate seeing Zoanthropes and outflanking stealers. I don't know if a pure horde will work these days, but it's worth a try. 200+ gaunts can't be wrong.

I have no useful advice, but I am putting my Nids on hold until the new codex comes out. Don't want to paint any units that I don't want to field later.

Yeah, unholy chior is a valid 5th tactic as well, especially with losing mele combat being so bad. (and Genestealers being of such high initiative...) But the ability to still field 4 fexes AND a psychic chior can't be overlooked.

GeneralRetreat wrote:I'm not a Nids player, but I know I hate seeing Zoanthropes and outflanking stealers. I don't know if a pure horde will work these days, but it's worth a try. 200+ gaunts can't be wrong.

Oh, yes, yes they can be. 200 gaunts are often extremely wrong.

You're not a Nids player, so I'll put it into perspective. Gaunts outside of Synapse range have to pass a Ld5 test to function or they otherwise fall back. They're more expensive than guardsmen, they have worse guns than guardsmen, they have worse armor than guardsmen, and to add insult to injury their only 2 options are fearless or Ld5.

Supposing gaunts get into assault, they are dead. Guaranteed. Not only are the gaunts dead, but so are any other creatures involved in the assault. 10 marines assault 2 carnifexes and 20 gaunts. They throw their attacks on the gaunts and kill 9 of them. The fexes kill 2. Now the gaunts take 7 no retreat saves (6+ armor saves, mind you), and EACH FEX takes 7 no retreat saves. Everything explodes in a fine pink mist because the gaunts existed.

If you're spending points on 200+ gaunts, you're not spending AT LEAST 1000 points on Synapse or things that don't require Synapse (if we're talking hormagaunts, it's at least 2000). Seeing as how gaunts can't score without Synapse, neither can they move, this is a Very Important Tidbit.

Finally, using gaunts requires you to have something good within 12 inches of said gaunts, and since gaunt weapons are so incredibly short-ranged, that puts your good (tyrants/zoanthropes) or expensive and horribly fragile (warriors) units within 2 and a half feet of enemy units at any given point in time, which usually eliminates any idea of keeping them out of danger.

In short: gaunts do arguably more to hurt your army than to help it. The best-used gaunts are 1 or 2 minimum-sized (8 man) without number squads to provide cover saves and take objectives in the late game.

starbomber109 wrote:Yeah, unholy chior is a valid 5th tactic as well, especially with losing mele combat being so bad. (and Genestealers being of such high initiative...) But the ability to still field 4 fexes AND a psychic chior can't be overlooked.

In a sick twist, the best psychic choir lists are also Nidzilla lists. Part of that comes from the fact that 2 of your psychic screams are coming from hive tyrants. 5 screams, 5 barbed stranglers, and as many genestealers as I can fit has done more good for me in 5th edition than any other list.

Broken Loose wrote:Seeing as how gaunts can't score without Synapse, neither can they move, this is a Very Important Tidbit.

Why can't you score without synapse?

You dont _have_ to lurk or move(take leadership test) if your out of synapse. You may if you want to.

Incorrect. You may take the leadership test OR "alternatively, the brood may lurk." There is no in-between. The key word is "alternatively."

Yes alternatively to moving, but what if I stand still?


"Incorrect" is your opinion, the link below proves people think differently.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216936.page

My current Nidz tactic is to shelf the army till January.

I don't think Nidzilla does as well as it used to.

Ill run my assalt bugs up to 1500pts. nidzila, with stealers, but past 1500 i cant hold up. Its sad realy, i love my bugs.

You can't stand still. There are 2 options...If you want to perform normally you must take an LD check. If you don't then you must lurk. By claiming that you don't want to move you are essentially undermining the whole concept of synapse. And rules lawyering. I know there was a huge uproar about this is in a previous thread, so I guess it's up to your gaming group to decide how to play it.

I admit it's poorly worded though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And on topic I find that with my 2k competitive build (nidzilla) I can force a draw most times, though pulling out a win is a pretty rare occurence. My sig comes from me playing 1k battles where 4 monstrous creatures really rule the battle field.

SuperioR wrote:Yes alternatively to moving, but what if I stand still?


"Incorrect" is your opinion, the link below proves people think differently.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216936.page

If you were to read the lurking section, it is clear that lurking covers the circumstances of not moving.

The IB rules are unique to the Tyranids and describe the inability of the creatures to function outside of Synapse range. The entirety of those rules are documented on page 28 of the Tyranid codex.

You take a Ld test and move.
You remain stationary and lurk.
You fall back towards Synapse.

The codex specifically says to choose each brood affected by Instinctive Behaviour, and apply those rules. The first rule is that they have to take a Ld test. The second rule says they can opt out of the Ld test if they Lurk. All your link proved was that there was a number of people on the internet who lack reading comprehension. There are also a number of people on the internet who believe the Earth is flat, and a number of people who believe that black people are a seperate species from white people who are inferior to the latter.

Are you going to claim that you can lurk and Run (even though they have fleet) because it doesn't say you can't? Are you going to claim that since Tyrant Guard "deploy" as MCs they're actually MCs?

Or, even better, what if I said that I didn't "want" to move the brood when I was moving it? Isn't that perfectly legal? I don't want to move these gaunts, but I have to in order to keep them from getting shot. I don't have to take a Ld test because I didn't "want" to move those gaunts!


Don't recommend that somebody cheat in a tactica thread.

Broken Loose wrote:
But nidzilla is the only viable 5th edition Tyranid army.

Agreed. There is simply no other way to be competitive with them. This will change when the new codex comes out, but for now you just have to wait.

Incorrect, Infact the most competitive at the moment is warrior spam.

On a side note genestealer shock attack can do just as well as nidzilla.



Here is my generic warrior list for 2000pts

2000 Pts - Tyranids Roster

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

11 Gaunt Brood @ 88 pts (Spinefists; Without Number)

6 Genestealers @ 168 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Scuttlers; Rending Claws; Scything Talons)

6 Genestealers @ 168 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Scuttlers; Rending Claws; Scything Talons)

3 Zoanthrope @ 165 pts (Toxic Miasma; Warp Blast; Warp Field)

1 Carnifex @ 163 pts (Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Reinforced Chitin; Spine Banks; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x2)

1 Carnifex @ 158 pts (Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Reinforced Chitin; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x2)

Clthomps wrote:

Broken Loose wrote:
But nidzilla is the only viable 5th edition Tyranid army.

Agreed. There is simply no other way to be competitive with them. This will change when the new codex comes out, but for now you just have to wait.

Incorrect, Infact the most competitive at the moment is warrior spam.

On a side note genestealer shock attack can do just as well as nidzilla.



Here is my generic warrior list for 2000pts

2000 Pts - Tyranids Roster

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

1 Warriors @ 218 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Twin-linked Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Barbed Strangler; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Deathspitter; Spinefists; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Lash Whips x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Rending Claws x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)
1 Warriors (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x1; Deathspitter; Synapse Creature)

11 Gaunt Brood @ 88 pts (Spinefists; Without Number)

6 Genestealers @ 168 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Scuttlers; Rending Claws; Scything Talons)

6 Genestealers @ 168 pts (Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Scuttlers; Rending Claws; Scything Talons)

3 Zoanthrope @ 165 pts (Toxic Miasma; Warp Blast; Warp Field)

1 Carnifex @ 163 pts (Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Reinforced Chitin; Spine Banks; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x2)

1 Carnifex @ 158 pts (Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Flesh Hooks; Reinforced Chitin; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Scything Talons x2)

You are basically right, althou stealler shock is not competitive. My preference still lies with Zilla but Warrior themed armies can do well if used right. I wrote a little article on it: http://tyranidsbackwardsandforwards.blogspot.com/2009/09/nids-helpbuild-request.html

A trukk full of boyz with a PK nob (the standard build) could obliterate one or two squads of those warriors at a time for half the price.

4 trukks full could do the trick and let a warboss handle the last squad.

A single squad of HB devs or long fangs would turn that army off.

Battlecannons.

Almost anything in the CSM codex can cream you.

A Salamanders list or any Sisters list would table you, especially if they have Immolators.

Almost any Eldar list would give you severe trouble.


I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm not just speaking from numbers, either. I've tried that list and it's not good.

Oh, and I found it more effective to just TL all the deathspitters instead of floating wounds. I'd rather all my shots be on target-- dead enemies can't drop my models.

Truks

They can't get close enough to the warriors to drop off there pay loads, with out being blown to pieces. So that argument is mute.

One squad of HB long fangs

really are you serious? First off who takes these? Everyone is spamming missile launchers at the moment, and even if they were fielded the math doesn't add up:

12 shots at str 5 ap4, 8 hit, 5.28 cover saves, 2.14 wounds........ Now I allocate so you only need to do that for 3 rounds before you kill one warrior.

Battlecannon

, how many are you really going to kill every round? 1-2 no big deal, let them shoot at my warriors while the fexs and zoans get in range to net me 200+ points.

Almost anything in the CSM codex can cream you.

At this point you are just grabbing at straws, Anything short of dual lash is utter crap.


And after that you just keep listing whole armies in an (unsuccessful) attempt to make your point.

I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm not just speaking from numbers, either. I've tried that list and it's not good.

Oh, and I found it more effective to just TL all the deathspitters instead of floating wounds. I'd rather all my shots be on target-- dead enemies can't drop my models.

I can tell you are not speaking from the numbers, if you were you would realise the power of wound allocation. And also the power of ten Str6 blasts (and one pie Plate). You might also see how easy it is to give all 5 squads cover.

Try a roll off with a unit of TL DS warriors vs a unit set up to spread wounds. I guarantee that the multi-equipment ones will table the TL DS ones without loosing more than one model, if that.

Clthomps wrote:

Truks

They can't get close enough to the warriors to drop off there pay loads, with out being blown to pieces. So that argument is mute.

One squad of HB long fangs

really are you serious? First off who takes these? Everyone is spamming missile launchers at the moment, and even if they were fielded the math doesn't add up:

12 shots at str 5 ap4, 8 hit, 5.28 cover saves, 2.14 wounds........ Now I allocate so you only need to do that for 3 rounds before you kill one warrior.

Battlecannon

, how many are you really going to kill every round? 1-2 no big deal, let them shoot at my warriors while the fexs and zoans get in range to net me 200+ points.

Almost anything in the CSM codex can cream you.

At this point you are just grabbing at straws, Anything short of dual lash is utter crap.


And after that you just keep listing whole armies in an (unsuccessful) attempt to make your point.

I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm not just speaking from numbers, either. I've tried that list and it's not good.

Oh, and I found it more effective to just TL all the deathspitters instead of floating wounds. I'd rather all my shots be on target-- dead enemies can't drop my models.

I can tell you are not speaking from the numbers, if you were you would realise the power of wound allocation. And also the power of ten Str6 blasts (and one pie Plate). You might also see how easy it is to give all 5 squads cover.

Try a roll off with a unit of TL DS warriors vs a unit set up to spread wounds. I guarantee that the multi-equipment ones will table the TL DS ones without loosing more than one model, if that.

Ownage! Oh and QFT!

I'm not going to piece by piece you but I will tackle your points.

In order to kill a trukk, you have to hit with a BS2 blast, roll a 5+ to penetrate, and then roll a 4+ to kill. Alternatively, you may roll a 4 to glance and a 6 to kill.

Your average BS2 scatter will be 5 inches. The average tank model allows for no more than 3 inches of scatter before you completely clear the model, and 2 inches horizontally will give you half strength (the trukk is longer than it is wide), which won't affect the vehicle. In other words, when you're not rolling a "hit" on the die you have to roll a 4.5 to hit the vehicle. I'm going to average the 2" and 3" scatter results to achieve this.

The odds of getting four or less on 2D6 is sixteen and two thirds percent.
The odds of getting five or less on 2D6 is twenty-seven and seven ninths percent.
This works out to 22.215% if we mediate them.

You have a 1 in 3 chance of getting a "hit" on the scatter die. Of the 2 in 3 chance of not getting a "hit," you have a 22.215% chance of not scatter off (14.81 stacked). This means you have, total, a 48.14% chance of hitting the vehicle.

That means you have a 16% chance to penetrate, and 8% to make a decent damage roll, but that's not counting the miniscule (roughly 2%) possibility of a glancing 6. So, just to be safe, we'll say that, supposing I have a trukk aimed at your particular warriors that don't have twin-linked weaponry, you have a roughly 10% chance of stopping me from driving 13", disembarking 2", and assaulting 6" (not to mention 1" base width). Keep in mind that for the weapon to actually work, you have be well within the 24" range of the gun or you're targetting the corner of the front bumper.

Let's not even consider the fact of a waaugh. If I assault you, I'm guaranteed to kill you. Don't make me embarass you with the math. 12 WS4 S5 attacks aren't going to do gak to a mob of WS4 S4 T4 dudes with 4 attacks each and 4 powerklaws at the end. Every 3 of your dudes is going to wounds every 1 of mine if I fail all my saves, and every 2 of my dudes will wound every 1 of yours if you roll statistically average saves BEFORE the powerklaw.

If you don't kill the trukk with your gunshot, I have a 100% chance of getting into assault with you. TLing the deathspitter turns the initial 48.14% chance to hit into 66% of a "hit" and 39.49% chance of a decent scatter, for an overall 79.83% chance to hit. You've turned it from "more likely to not hit" to "extremely likely to hit." 26.61% of the time you'll hit and penetrate, and 13.31% of the time you'll hit, penetrate, and wreck (or roughly 18% with the glancing 6 thrown in, no joke).

I can go on. 4 warriors fire 4 deathspitters at one trukk. Each deathspitter has a roughly 10% chance of destruction. You're betting 220 points on a 34.39% chance of preventing 150 points of enemy from eating your lunch.

4 warriors fire 4 TL deathspitters at one trukke. They have a 54.79% chance of taking out the vehicle. Who cares about floating wounds when you kill the enemy first?


Now, let's talk CSM. Noise Marines have better accuracy, better armor, and if they so desire to use the blastmaster they will outrange you and run you through.

Plague Marines will shrug off any damage you deal to them (even with you wounding on a 3 supposing you get them out of their cars by some miracle, they have 3+ armor and 4+ FNP), melta you, and assaulting them is suicide.

Berserkers? You're joking, right? If Berserkers are present, they're probably in a Land Raider because they're assault troops and it's an assault vehicle, and Kharn may be present as well (at which point you should probably just pack it up and go home). You can't do anything about the LR, so you're just going to have to run away and hope you get lucky rolls in the assault... in which he goes first... and hits on 3's... and wounds on 3's... with more attacks... and saves that put yours to shame.... with a powerfist at the end.

Obliterators care not about your puny single-shot S6 guns and care even less about your S4 pinning large blasts. They will plasmacannon you, they will plasma gun you. They will lascannon you from across the field. Finally, they will powerfist you.


In short, yes, let's talk numbers. Warriors are expensive and have bad stats.

Yay cause math hammer is always right...

Also all he needs to do is Immobilize the trukk to make it useless...

CSM? Noice Marines? Who takes those and a couple of blast master shots a turn won't do much. Plague Marines... meat barbed strangler (on a Carnifex... yay 23pt normal marines!). Berzerkers meat stealers, need I say more.

Obliterators well of course they shoot nids to hell... they shoot everyone to hell...

Broken Loose, I think you're dismissing the tyranid warriors' combat skills a bit lightly. They're not as good as Orks, but:
Warriors get 14 attacks per squad (since 2 have talons), 7 hits, 4.66 wounds, approx. 4 dead boyz.

7 remaining boyz strike back, 28 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 3.5 failed saves (so he doesn't have to take off a warrior yet)

Nob strikes, 4 attacks, 2 hits, say 2 more wounds. The tyranids have to take off a warrior. (the tyranids lose combat by approx. 1 model, half chance to take a no retreat wound)

Next turn: warriors have 12 attacks, 6 hit, 4 wound, 3.33 dead boyz

say 4 remaining boyz strike, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 2 wounds, 1 failed save (so another warrior leaves the table)

Nob strikes, 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, assume 1 warrior down.

Now it's the Boyz taking the leadership test. I won't do the numbers or anything, but it comes out about equal, the squads grind each other up essentially.

Now I know the tyranids cost more. But they're a squad that can shoot at long range, on the move. By broken loose's math, each squad has about a 50% chance to destroy a trukk with every turn's shooting. In practice, that means some squads will get to assault from their vehicles, some will have to walk. Warriors aren't very fast-moving, but they don't have to just stand there while the boyz come at them. If the boyz' ride is destroyed while they are within 6", the nids may even move to assault the remnants, which should destroy the squad, since orks benefit so much from the charge.

I think you guys are getting a little bit personal about this - noone owns the rights to trukk boyz or tyranid warriors, it's not an insult to say they're better or worse in certain situations. But if I knew my opponent was fielding lots of warriors w/deathspitters, I would not try to counter it with trukk boyz. I'd take battlewagons!

Anyway, we were talking about 'nid tactics?

Here is my list and how I play it:

Nids, 1500 points.

HQ

172- Hive tyrant: enhanced senses, extended carapace, flesh hooks, implant attack, toxin sacs, two twin-linked devourers, shadow in the warp.

92- Two tyrant guard: flesh hooks, one w/ lash whip, one w/ scything talons.

162- Hive tyrant: enhanced senses, extended carapace, flesh hooks, implant attack, toxin sacs, two twin-linked devourers

92- Two tyrant guard: flesh hooks, one w/ lash whip, one w/ scything talons.

Troops

240- 12 genestealers: extended carapace.

64- 8 termagaunts: spinefists, without number.

384- 32 hormagaunts: toxin sacs.

Heavy

148- Carnifex: enhanced senses, barbed strangler, venom cannon.

148- Carnifex: enhanced senses, barbed strangler, venom cannon.


So that's the list, as far as play style I should break this down a bit.

Set up

Typically, I set this list up in ranks. In front are the eight without number gaunts. Behind them are the two tyrants with their guard, and behind them are the hormagaunts. Behind the hormagaunts are the stealers. The carnifexen will take up a flank or anywhere that will give them a good line of sight.

The gaunts actually grant the tyrant and his guards a cover save because the guards are not monstrous creatures and they comprise at least 50% of the squad. The tyrants and their guard easily grant the hormagaunts a cover save, and the stealers most likely can't even be seen. So right off the bat your entire army has 4+ cover except eight models that are a throw away unit anyway and will come back on the board when killed.

The tyrants

The way the tyrant and tyrant guards are set up each model is armed differently allowing me to take full advantage of wound allocation. The tyrants have a 2+ save and happily soak up as much small arms fire and AP 3 shots as possible. Since the tyrants can never be picked out from the guard (even in close combat) leaving two wounds on them is relatively safe. However, killing both is the only way to really effectively take down this army, so people will be gunning for them.

The tyrants fire 12 strength 5 shots at 18 inch range and BS 4 that reroll both hits and wounds. If you're surprised by this, look up devourers and living ammunition. It's legal and a standard nid tactic. (I mention this because my opponents always seem surprised.) It's great for softening up infantry, or even wiping out entire squads depending on the situation. One round of shooting from one tyrant should kill 3-4 marines. If they both focus on one squad, they can decimate it.

Shadow in the warp, in my opinion, is one of the best defenses against psychic powers in the game and has shut down more than one dual lash list.

These squads are also pretty good in CC. All around, the strongest units in the army. Oh, and did I mention that one tyrant and his guard are only worth one kill point because the tyrant isn't a character?

Without number gaunts

These don't do much except die, but that's good enough. They offer a four up save to my tyrants on the first turn and after that they can come back on the board and claim an objective. Granted, they need to be in synapse range but I can always hang a tyrant back if this is absolutely essential or start running one backwards towards the end of the game. Six inches of movement, plus a D6 run, plus a 12" synapse range allows a little leeway for coming back mid-game. It's also good to note that the turn that without number gaunts come back on the board they don't have to test for lurking and will be able to hold an objective normally.

Hormagaunts

Probably the most controversial unit in this army. It costs me 384 points and lots of people argue that they're not worth it. Obviously, I disagree. This allows for a large unit with a lot of wounds for grabbing objectives. It's actually also my number one tank busting unit. With fleet and a 12" charge they can be on my opponent's tanks first turn striking the rear armor. (Only on spearhead when deployed at a kitty-corner or if my opponent went first and made the mistake of moving forward, but you'd be surprised. Second turn is fine anyway.) Granted, they can only glance, but with enough attacks that's all you need to do. Especially if I'm assaulting a vindicator or a russ and all I really care about is blowing off that big gun.

As for people who think they can't hold their own in combat: 32 gaunts charge ten space marines. The gaunts get 96 attacks. 48 hit, 24 wound, and 8 marines fail saves and die. The marines strike back (lets assume they have a power fist, as most do) five hit (we'll give them the benefit of the doubt), three wound, and three gaunts die. The power fist strikes (if it's still around to do so) and kills another one. You get similar results against orks, eldar, etc. Granted, this is assuming you get the charge in and have range with all your gaunts, which is unlikely. But you will almost always be the one getting the charge off if you play it right with fleet and a 12 inch charge, the only question is how many you get there. Most people also forget a key role of this squad: to tie up the enemy. It's large enough to tie up multiple units until it can be reinforced with genestealers and hive tyrants.

And with two tyrants standing in front of the gaunts the first turn or two you'll not only find that your gaunts have 4+ cover, but most opponents will shoot at the tyrants over the gaunts. Keeping the tyrants in front also helps to keep the gaunts jumping out of synapse range. On later turns, the hormagaunts may jump out in front of the tyrants to help provide them cover and, of course, charge. As you may have seen, the key way to kill this army is take down both tyrants but, when played right, that is very difficult.

Genestealers

Fairly simple unit. Run them in the back where they can't be seen, or at least always have cover, and then charge in to reinforce the gaunts. Always good for taking out marines or anything that rending needs to handle. Also a good objective holding unit as they don't need synapse.

Carnifexen

It amuses me to pluralize carnifex like oxen. Anyway, again, fairly simple unit. Walk forward and shoot. With two strength ten venom canon shots and a strength eight barbed strangler they're your best ranged anti armor. Since the venom canon can only glance, they're really best for keeping big tanks from shooting until they can be assaulted. However, don't underestimate their transport popping/immobilizing ability, and remember that venom canons can penetrate open topped vehicles. Also good for anything you think a strength eight pie plate might do some good. Biker nobs come to mind. Speaking of biker nobs, if I knew I was facing them (or even if I was playing in a really competitive tournament) I would drop two stealers and give all the tyrant guard in the army implant attack.


Alright, that's the list. It works, and it works well. At least for me. I don't like nidzilla. With the lack of scoring units it feels like you're always fighting for the tie unless you're playing kill points. I don't want to tie, I want to win. I think that (ironically) the best lists will actually have a bit of everything. Unusual for 40k, I know.

I also think five psychic screams and a bunch of barbed stranglers can be fairly effective, or at least a lot of fun.

Interesting example of a mixed list, whocares. I think you could cut 2 hormies and 2 genestealers, and then field 3 boomfexes instead of 2 sniperfexes though.

I've just realised this whole discussion will be overturned in January by the new codex. And I will almost certainly not play a game of warhammer against tyranids before january. That's a bit sad.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Interesting example of a mixed list, whocares. I think you could cut 2 hormies and 2 genestealers, and then field 3 boomfexes instead of 2 sniperfexes though.

I've just realised this whole discussion will be overturned in January by the new codex. And I will almost certainly not play a game of warhammer against tyranids before january. That's a bit sad.

I'm assuming boom fexes just have a barbed strangler? I'm not sure.

I could, but I like the venom canons. I face a lot of ordnance where I play (vindicators and russes) and they're good for glancing them and getting those crucial crew shaken results.

If I were facing more biker nobs or the like, your suggestion would almost certainly be superior.

I'm actually kind of bummed about the new tyranid codex. I like my army. I like that nobody else uses it. And, on top of that, I would rather see Necrons be redone. They're older and need it more badly.

Or even dark eldar. They were my favorite army back in third.

With the hormagaunts it's also fun to take advantage of them always falling back towards the nearest synapse creature and then automatically regrouping when they start their turn 12" from it.

Sometimes I run them out ahead on purpose hoping my opponent will make the mistake of shooting them before they charge and killing enough of them that they will break. This is very risky and only works when your opponent isn't paying attention, and it only works once (generally) but you'd be surprised at how often you can pull it off. People just get used to the idea that if your synapse is still alive the gaunts are fearless, they misjudge how far twelve inches is, they forget how low the gaunts leadership is and don't assume they'll break, etc. Generally you can tell if it will work on your opponent.

Last game I ran my gaunts out ahead of my hive tyrants (15" away) to charge an opponent's vindicator. I successfully blew it up. On his turn he moved his assault squad (with two flamers) up, like I thought he would. He flamed the gaunts, easily killed eight, and just before he started moving his models in I reminded him I had to check for leadership, ran 14" and he couldn't assault. On my turn the hormagaunts regrouped, moved their 3", fleeted, and were easily able to reach his assault squad with their 12" charge. This was of course within synapse range and after my tyrant had shot up the squad which was left standing in the open.

Again, this is very risky, usually not worth it tactically speaking, and only works if you are able to read your opponent. But the look on their face is worth it. Doing it is sort of a, "Look what I can do!" sort of move. I love it.

I've had a lot of fortune with the following.

2x 24 gaunts in front to take hits
8 Warriors (1 squad of 8 or 2 of 4)
Tyrant + Guard, Elite fex(es)
2x 8 gaunts (sandwiched in the middle somewhere)
2x Zoanthropes
Wing Tyrant and Heavy Fex(es) in back.


Everything damn near everything gets a cover save, and they cant simply rush behind to wipe out the scoring gaunts because of the MCs in the back.

The tactic is begins with my deploying second. I then look at the map and plot out a straight line path that takes me near as many objectives as possible. The goal is to leave objectives on my side of the table uncontrolled, to take the objectives in the middle, and contest the ones in their deployment zone.

I do not deviate from the line, I march the entire army, in a straight line, MCs, gaunts, everything. My goal is to have gaunts survive to turn 4 and drop them off midfield on an objective, two if I'm lucky. The remaining units continue to press into their deployment zone eitehr forcing them off objectives, or keeping them there for eventual assault.

The 48 gaunts in the front need to find a way to either die, or move away from my bigger creatures to avoid chain reaction explosions into a fine pink mist.

At turns 5+ I should be in their deployment zone harassing their objectives with elites and heavies. With a couple groups of gaunts sitting on objectives.

It's very all-or-nothing. I decide where I want the fist to go, and throw the punch.

The flaws are vulnerability to templates and rear attacks from high ap weapons. The gaunts in the center get a cover save as long as the MCs stay alive, and the winged tyrant in the back is a nice deterrent and counterattack to enemy vehicles. As fr terminators... I stand a carnifex in front of them and shoot hoping they assault it to slow down and run while shooting, I won't sacrifice a flyrant on it.

This strategy used to suck, I lost my first maybe 30 games, but I find it working more and more often now. There's some refinement I'm missing (slow learner) but it looks good.