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What are people going to be taking in their squads? My list is entirely mounted in Drop-pods, so I figured powerfists would be a good idea. Of course, I'm not taking meltaguns on everything that can have them, so PFs are a handy addition to my squads for destroying light vehicles and MEQs along with my plasma guns.

Grey Hunters mark of wulfen + a wolf guard (depending on xy&Z) in terminator armour with power weapon and CML ... Depending on what the rest of my armys got that power weapon may become a powerfist or chainfist.

Bloodclaw are not my thing .... but personally i don't think they should be upgraded unless they take a wolfguard and then only plasma pistols.

WolfGuard just get you more attacks for your points.

The cost of power fists, combined with the restricted amount of attacks, makes it very difficult for me to take them. I have taken them out of every unit I have and have replaced them with power weapons. Much cheaper and more attacks. This is mitigated a bit by multiple meltaguns as well. I think they only time I would take power fists is with blood claws with Ragnar joining the unit.

best set up for GH's, IMO = 10 man in pod or rhino, 2 x melta, mark of the wolfen. comes out to 205 and does everything you could want them to do. Giving them WG is a bad idea, IMO, because you forfeit the second free special weapon. I would rather have a potent shooting squad with decent HtH capability than give them the WG and lose out on so much of the shooting punch. These guys should be shooting primarily and assaulting secondarily, therefore you should maximize their primary role.

Ah damn you, Cheese Elemental, I was gonna make a thread about pretty much the exact same thing earlier this morning but had to leave home in a rush. I come home and I find this! Oh well, Ill just say what I was gonna say here, for discussions sake.

Basically, I had begun pondering the merits of Powerfists/power weapons on Space Wolves units like Blood Claws and Grey Hunters (and to a lesser extent, Wolf Scouts and Swift/Skyclaws), compared to the discussions regarding whether or not powerfists/power weapons were worth it on vanilla SM Tac squad sergeants.

People had many points, but basically they would give powerfists/pw to their Tac squad sergeants to a) make them better in assault, b) more tactically flexible and c) make the opponent think twice about charging that tac squad with the pf or pw.

But are they worth it on GHs/BCs? As we know, Space Wolves get alot of toys to play with, what with their Wolf Guard and Wolf Lords, and crazy-expensive special characters, so I wanted to know if adding such weapons on your Troops is a wise investment, especially when they're better at assault than regular SMs, but the tactical flexibility might still be a valid consideration.

Grey Hunters: Most people are going to have the max squad of 10, with two meltaguns, and Ill certainly have atleast one of these, along with MotW (the cost of another GH, for more attacks with rending). Certainly, two meltaguns from BS4 GH will be enough to deal with whatever armour is coming the GHs way? So is a PF really necessary? Especially with only one attack (two if charge/counter-charged)? Would a PW be better, to help the GH charge the contents and tear them asunder? Or just leave them without and keep them cheaper that way?

Blood Claws: I know alot of people dont like them, but I do and aim to take atleast one 15-strong unit of these impetuous berserkers. That being said, they're only WS3, even though they have more attacks than GH do on the charge with PFs, so does that balance out to make PFs worth taking? I intend to take Flamers with these, and charge/bog down other units, cause I dont want to rely on WS3 meltas to take care of armour. So Im thinking PFs might be worth it as a 'security' to deal with whatever might be sent their way to bog THEM down.

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are also worth taking into consideration. Infact, it pretty much changes whether or not we take the PF/PW in the regular squad. They share the extra attack with SM Tac sergeants, and are WS4, and can be given combi-weapons to suit the occassion, so they pretty much are the SM equivalents, cept you're giving up an Elite slot, in order to give all your units a pack leader that can choose from an array of wargear. Supposedly, a PF/Combi WG is cheaper than a SM Tac Sarge with the same set-up, but I wouldnt know. But sure is something to take into consideration as well.

How I was gonna set up my core of foot-slogging Spolves is this (and yes, foot-slogging is a slow way to die, but we dont really play that meta-game amongst my circle of newbie-friends);

> 10-strong GH pack, 2x meltaguns, MotW + WG Pack leader with combi-flamer/PF. (flamer to roast the contents of whatever transport the meltaguns fry)
> 10-strong GH pack, 2x plasmaguns, MotW + WG Pack Leader with combi-plasma/PW or PF (guarding objectives, and scaring anything that comes to take it, especially DSing termies)
> 15-strong BC pack, flamer + WG Pack Leader with MotW and SS (not two flamers, cause I want more attacks, and less risk of roasting everything I kill before I charge, and that particular WG set-up for fluff reasons)

Basically, with this core set-up, is it worth putting extra points into PFs/PWs into the regular GH/BCs or not?

PS: Sorry for the long post, but alot of it is theory that I was thinking about, and just wanted to see what others think.

Certainly, two meltaguns from BS4 GH will be enough to deal with whatever armour is coming the GHs way?

You'd be surprised... I run a number of armies with big blocks of Meltas. I've watched my Dominions jump out of a Rhino, do nothing to a Land Raider, and get mauled, and that's with 4x Melta shots.

Even at BS4, you're going to be missing with both about 10% of the time. You're not always going to be within 6", and suddenly S8AP1 is now solid but nothing special. Meltas are great, but 2x is not a sure thing at all.

As always the Power Fist is an insurace policy. All the big stuff, TMCs, Dreads, T4 ICs... They have to rethink attacking the squad.

It's tough to pay the full 25 points to put a Fist on a 1A model, but in this case it's a 1A model with Counter-Attack, so that helps. Besides, it's not like you're getting any better of a deal with a Power Weapon. It's still a 1A model, you're just fooling yourself by thinking that spending LESS in a questionable situation is a better idea.

Also, this is a no brainer for any GH squad, but especially a 10 man: Wolf Standard. Reroll all your 1s for an entire assault phase. It's 10 points. If you make one extra save with this power, it just paid for itself and more.

Most of my Grey Hunters are 10 man with Power Fist, Flamer, Wolf Standard, Plasma Pistol, and Mark of the Wulfen.
The Wolf Standard and MotW are new to all of mine, but I have always had a Power Fist Sergeant and Flamer in them since 1st edition, so why change now.
The Plasma Pistols I added in 3rd.

One of the other reasons I am keeping them now is a build I came up with.
1st Pack: Grey Hunters as above, Wolf Guard Pack leader with Paired Wolf Claws, Ragnar with 2 wolves and a LRC.
2nd Pack: 15 Blood Claws [Flamer, PP, PF], Wolf Guard Pack Leader, and Ulric.
I just don’t know what to arm the 2nd Wolf guard Pack Leader with.

I just dont think the Powerfist is worth its cost when compared to just buying a wolf guard is cheaper and gives you more attacks.


Its just not overall a great option.


For the cost of 5 points more you can dump the powerfist and take mark of the wolfen and a powerweapon.

Phryxis wrote:
It's tough to pay the full 25 points to put a Fist on a 1A model, but in this case it's a 1A model with Counter-Attack, so that helps. Besides, it's not like you're getting any better of a deal with a Power Weapon. It's still a 1A model, you're just fooling yourself by thinking that spending LESS in a questionable situation is a better idea.

Power Weapon does let you keep an extra attack from having a BP, whereas Power Fist does not.

I've been thinking about this a lot myself, it's quite a conundrum and sadly you can't have everything...

If I attach a WG, I would give him a combi-flamer instead of a combi-melta, at least he can't miss with it. A fully kitted-out GH squad with a melta, WG (PF/Combi-weapon), Mark of the Wolfen and Rhino is actually a bit cheaper than an equivalent Codex SM squad (3 points I think) and is a lot better in CC.

On the other hand, GH shouldn't be fighting anything for which a powerfist is REQUIRED, they should shoot it instead (or let someone else do the shooting). Of course sometimes you don't have the option... but consider what you need a powerfist for and think of what chances you have of winning that fight whether you have a powerfist or not. If there's something that you need S8 to hurt, chances are it also has I5+ and a lot of attacks that ignore armor saves. You'll be in tatters by the time you get to the fist, and will probably lose combat anyway...

All in all, a PF (or an attached WG) is good insurance, but it may not be worth the investment.

Grey hunter load-outs;

9 men plus mark of the wulfen always & either

1) Power weapon GH and power-weapon + BP Wolfguard and flamer GH

2) Powerfist GH and powerfist + Combi-melta wolfguard and melta GH.

This is the long and short of it. You should be fielding 3 squads of Grey-hunters & that equates to a minimal squad of Wolfguard. You have to spend the +3ppm and the additional special weapon cost for that wolfguard but its worth it. Grey hunters are designed to excel in close-combat. They will do this with dual special CCW (One model out of the two with 2A base) and always the mark of the wulfen model.

You loose out on the second free special weapon (but shooting isnt where grey-hunter's are @ and you loose even less firepower on the more necessary melta anti-tank with the combi-melta/powerfist Wolfguard which is good) to field only 9 Grey hunters but they need transport which means 10men squad max.

Simple, really.

Are power weapons 15 points?

As a Chaos player, theres never a reason to take a power weapon. Great, you cut through armour for 10 points less with an extra attack...except youre always killing on 2s with the fist, can kill tanks, stand up to walkers/MCs, etc for 10 points more.

The SWs sergeant doesnt get 2 base attacks in his profile?

1] Yes
2] Yes

Power Weapon does let you keep an extra attack from having a BP, whereas Power Fist does not.

Right, I know...

But normally you're buying a Power Weapon for 15 for a model with base 2A, or a Power Fist for 25 for a model with base 2A.

When it's now base 1A, it's fewer attacks for either. Fewer for Power Weapon (3 down to 2), fewer for Power Fist (2 down to 1). But you still pay the 15/25.

So, if 15/25 was a good price to pay to put the weapon on a model with 2A, isn't it steep for a model with 1A?

Dunno.

My point is just to say that if somebody can't justify spending 25 to give a Fist to a model with 1A, then why can they justify spending 15 to give him a Power Weapon? They're still paying the 2A price for a 1A model.

To me it's like saying "$20 for two cans of paint? That's too much! I'll give you $10 for one." Huh?

Personally I gave my 1A GHs a Fist. By no means am I certain that's the right call, but when in doubt, I go with Fists.

Phryxists that exactly why i add it to the WG. He has 2 attacks base and he can take terminator armour with a storm bolter and power weapon for 15pts .... or just take a power weapon for 10pts or power fist for 20pts Ok he cost 18pts and takes up an elites slot but he is a must

Night Lords wrote:Are power weapons 15 points?

As a Chaos player, theres never a reason to take a power weapon. Great, you cut through armour for 10 points less with an extra attack...except youre always killing on 2s with the fist, can kill tanks, stand up to walkers/MCs, etc for 10 points more.

The SWs sergeant doesnt get 2 base attacks in his profile?

Space Wolves don't have sergeants in Grey Hunter or Blood Claw squads. They can take one power fist or power weapon on a normal Marine (as well as a couple of plasma pistols) and can be lead by an individual Wolf Guard from an elite WG squad that's been divided up.

Cheese Elemental wrote:
Space Wolves don't have sergeants in Grey Hunter or Blood Claw squads. They can take one power fist or power weapon on a normal Marine (as well as a couple of plasma pistols) and can be lead by an individual Wolf Guard from an elite WG squad that's been divided up.

and that individual WG pack leader can be also given a PF or PW, which basically comes back to my questions earlier.

As I mentioned, no doubt Ill be treating my WG pack leaders like SM Tac sgts, and give them PF/Combis, so they'll have that base 2A powerfisting action, as well as the extra tactical oomph combis provide.

What Im still not sure about is, is it still worth giving the normal GH or BC in the squad a PF/PW? especially when in the case of the GH, its one less Attack for the same price as Phryxis was pointing out (which is a very good point), while in the BC case, its a weaker WS3 (Berserk charge gives them +2A instead of +1A for charging, so it balances that one out). Space Wolves are considerably more assaulty as is with their BP/CCW weapon set up, and Counterattack to boot. Plus, MotW and the Wolf Standards also boosts up their assault potential already, not to mention already adding on MORE points to the squad.

I think I might end up adding the extra PFs to the squads, but in the end Im still not too sure... (25 points really is alot of choke on). I think Im still fighting the old Ork mindset where you needed to take Power klaws on everything you can, cause for Orks, power klaws solve everything

I would give fists to Wolf Guard pack leaders and power weapons to ordinary Grey Hunters if you feel like you need more CC punch. The fist doesn't seem worth it on a regular Grey Hunter model.

Well, to sum up the difference between the PW and PF:

When not charging (or counter charging):

Against T4: PW kills 0.50 marines, PF kills 0.41 marines.

Therefore if T4 or lower, PW wins out. If T5 or higher, or if it is armour, the PF wins out.

When Charging:

The power fist wins out except against T3.

I dont know if that changes anyone's thoughts on it, but there you go.

If you mix a Power Fist with the Wolf Totem you get a real nasty combo.
2 Attacks that Miss on a “2” and wound most things in a “1”. And if you mix that with someone like Ragnar that give you 1d3 extra Attack “Re-Roll” that 1 give you a almost 5 in 6 chance of more than 2 attacks. I know that is only good once, but timed right.


With the Blood Claws, most armies look like they will only have 1, but put that with a Wolf Priest, they get to Re-Roll all of those misses vs. there chosen enemy. Mix that with a WGPL with a Power Fist.

It’s all Synergy

Phryxists that exactly why i add it to the WG.

The WG is a no-brainer choice if you have room for him. For a walking unit he's a must. If you want to fit the squad into a Rhino or Drop Pod, however, it's less clear.

I'd still take him, but that's me.

What Im still not sure about is, is it still worth giving the normal GH or BC in the squad a PF/PW?

My initial reaction is that you should give him a Fist, but running the numbers suggests otherwise.

It's 25 points. On the average round, a normal GH gets 3A, while the Fist gets 1A.

vs MEq

Normal: 3A, 1.5 Hits, .75 Wounds, .25 killed. For 15 points, that's .0167 per point.
Fist: 1A, .5 hits, .42 killed. For 40 points that's .0105 per point.

A lot less efficient.

However, on a "charge" round, which is all first rounds of combat for GHs.

Normal: 4A, 2 hits, 1 wound, .33 killed. For 15 points, that's .022.
Fist: 2A, 1 hit, .833 killed. For 40 points, that's .0208

Still less efficient.

I'm tempted to take a Power Weapon, both because it seems to synergize much better with the GH, and also because I like the fluff of mixed weapons.

The numbers for a PW:

Not charging: 3A, 1.5 hits, .75 killed. For 30 points, that's .025 per point.
Charging: 4A, 2 hits, 1 killed. For 30 points that's .033 per point.

Much better than a normal GH and a Fist in either case.

Thanks guys, you've just helped me improve my list...

Cheese: Would you kindly post your list or PM it to me. I'd like to look over it as I write mine up, if you wouldn't mind.

Anpu42 wrote:

On the average round, a normal GH gets 3A, while the Fist gets 1A.

Shouldent it be 2A and 1A?

Yes, I'm dumb. Let me redo:

No charge:
Normal: 2A, 1 Hits, .5 Wounds, .167 killed. For 15 points, that's .0111 per point.
Weapon: 2A, 1 Hits, .5 killed. For 30 points that's .0167
Fist: 1A, .5 hits, .42 killed. For 40 points that's .0105 per point.

Charge:
Normal: 3A, 1.5 hits, .75 wound, .25 killed. For 15 points, that's .0167.
Weapon: 3A, 1.5 hits, .75 killed. For 30 points, that's .025
Fist: 2A, 1 hit, .833 killed. For 40 points, that's .0208

So, once I do the numbers correctly, it becomes apparent that the Fist is somethig of a draw, point for point, with just taking more GHs. The Power Weapon comes out pretty significantly ahead.

Given a point for point draw, I'd always opt for a fist, as it provides a huge edge against bigger monsters, ICs, etc. The Power Weapon is enough better against normal MEq's though, and synergizes with the GH's base equipment, so I think I plan to take them.

Also, considering the miserable whipping I took from a Wolf Priest's Crozius last game, I think it's fate.

Phryxis wrote:

Shouldent it be 2A and 1A?

Yes, I'm dumb. Let me redo:

No charge:
Normal: 2A, 1 Hits, .5 Wounds, .167 killed. For 15 points, that's .0111 per point.
Weapon: 2A, 1 Hits, .5 killed. For 30 points that's .0167
Fist: 1A, .5 hits, .42 killed. For 40 points that's .0105 per point.

Charge:
Normal: 3A, 1.5 hits, .75 wound, .25 killed. For 15 points, that's .0167.
Weapon: 3A, 1.5 hits, .75 killed. For 30 points, that's .025
Fist: 2A, 1 hit, .833 killed. For 40 points, that's .0208

So, once I do the numbers correctly, it becomes apparent that the Fist is somethig of a draw, point for point, with just taking more GHs. The Power Weapon comes out pretty significantly ahead.

Given a point for point draw, I'd always opt for a fist, as it provides a huge edge against bigger monsters, ICs, etc. The Power Weapon is enough better against normal MEq's though, and synergizes with the GH's base equipment, so I think I plan to take them.

Also, considering the miserable whipping I took from a Wolf Priest's Crozius last game, I think it's fate.

I don't think 1A with a powerfist gives you that big of an edge against anything. Sure, it will obviously be better than a Power Weapon against big nasties and what not, but 25 points is just not worth it. Your Grey Hunters should not be taking on monsters. Give your characters fists or hammers and let them go to work on the tough stuff. It is a much better investment. Other than having Blackmane with a squad of Bllod Claws, I can see no reason to give fists to rank and file troops.

Currently running 3 units of Grey Hunters armed like this:
9 Grey Hunters
- 1 melta gun
- Mark of Wolfen
- Wolf Standard
- Rhino
+
1 Wolfguard
-Powerfist
-Combimelta
Pts: 233

This gives you:
1 melta gun and a combi melta for killing vehicles,
Leadership 9 for when you take losses
2 Attack Powerfist 3 on charge or counter attack
+d6 rending attacks
You may reroll ones for one assault phase. In assault when charging or counter attacking you get 27 regular attacks, d6 rending attacks, and 3 powerfist attacks

Fist is expensive howerver on average gives you one more kill and another combat res. In Warhammer Fantasy people buy expensive banners in units for +1 combat res. Also fist can hurt monsterous creatures and special characters for those bad situations.

Rated G wrote:I don't think 1A with a powerfist gives you that big of an edge against anything. Sure, it will obviously be better than a Power Weapon against big nasties and what not, but 25 points is just not worth it. Your Grey Hunters should not be taking on monsters. Give your characters fists or hammers and let them go to work on the tough stuff. It is a much better investment. Other than having Blackmane with a squad of Bllod Claws, I can see no reason to give fists to rank and file troops.

And that ultimately comes back to what Anpu42 was sayin about synergy, I think. Let special characters, HQ units and Lone Wolves deal with the MCs, walkers and what have you cause they're better equipped for it with things like Saga of the Beastslayer. Along with Phryxis' calculations, I am now more convinced in the direction I should take with my BCs/GHs. And thank the Emperor for that cause I was having trouble fitting all those powerfists into my list. Thanks guys

It was sad day when I ripped all the powerfists off my guys. I shed a few tears. Though, that may have been because of the glue vapors. Yeah, thats it.

Mark of Wulfen is the only Close combat weapon (edit i know its technically not but it gives the same effect) that grey hunters should take IMHO

2-3 attacks
becomes
2-8 attacks which rend. You should average about 4-5 attacks

Tri wrote:Mark of Wulfen is the only Close combat weapon that grey hunters should take IMHO

2-3 attacks
becomes
2-8 attacks which rend. You should average about 4-5 attacks

Not neccessarily. I myself enjoy the consistency of the power weapons negating saves. Though you get more attacks with MotW, you don't get that guarantee. That's why I take both. For 30 points, its a freaking steal.