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I think I will be playing in a 1850 rouge trader style tourney within the month or two. So I made this list with composition scores in mind. Please feel free to offer any CC, also if you could post a composition score that you would give (and reasons if you feel chatty)

Thanks,




1850 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster

1 Archon @ 362 pts (Combat Drug Dispenser; Shadow Field; Tormentor Helm; Trophy Rack; Punisher; Plasma Grenades; Animus Vitae)
1 Retinue
5 Incubi (Tormentor Helm; Punisher x5; Plasma Grenades)
1 Raider (Dark Lance; Nightshields)

1 Haemonculi @ 42 pts (Destructor; Plasma Grenades)
4 Wyches @ 168 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Trophy Rack; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

1 Haemonculi @ 42 pts (Destructor; Plasma Grenades)
4 Wyches @ 168 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Trophy Rack; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

1 Haemonculi @ 40 pts (Destructor)
4 Wyches @ 168 pts (Close Combat Weapon; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Blaster x2; Combat Drugs; Plasma Grenades)
1 Succubus (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol; Wych Weapons; Trophy Rack; Plasma Grenades (Squad))
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

5 Warp Beasts @ 75 pts (Beastmaster)
1 Beast master (Agoniser; Splinter Pistol)

5 Raider Squad @ 105 pts (Splinter Rifle x4; Dark Lance; Raider)
1 Raider (Dark Lance)

10 Warrior Squad @ 100 pts (Splinter Rifle x8; Dark Lance x2)

10 Warrior Squad @ 100 pts (Splinter Rifle x8; Dark Lance x2)

10 Warrior Squad @ 100 pts (Splinter Rifle x8; Dark Lance x2)

1 Ravager @ 140 pts (Disentegrator x3; Nightshields)

1 Ravager @ 140 pts (Disentegrator x3; Nightshields)

1 Talos @ 100 pts (Talos Claw; Talos Sting)


Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Total Roster Cost: 1850

Sweet list!

Give the haemonculi scissorhands!! I'd drop the plasma grenades from the first two also. Their initiative is crap anyways.

Looks really good though.

The plasma grenades were to fill 4 points I had spare , I couldn't think of anything else to spend 4 points on. Also I would run scissor hands if I had the points, can you think of anything I should drop for them?

Get the points for scissor hands by taking the Trophy Rack off the Wych Succubus. If you are having to take a leadership test with that unit you are already in trouble.

Do you have an idea for how you want to field the warp beasts? I've heard they're not worth taking unless you field them with a webway portal, but I'm new to dark eldar so if you have another way they can be used effectively I'd love to hear about it.

@asug

I will run a couple test games without the Trophy racks, its a good thought since its only a 5 man unit. I Usually run a 8-9 wyches and they are a god-send.

@ Adamah

Warp beasts are phenomenal! For 75 points you get 24 attacks on the (12") charge, 20 of which are at str 4, and 3 are 4+ poison power weapon attacks. On a point per model basis they are the most cost effective unit in the game.

Its unfortunate that in Thor's guide (which reminds me I have to PM him again) he suggests that they are worthless, and that mentality seems to be propagated by the few (mostly the newer) dark eldar players.

They have quite a few uses, and at the moment I don't have time to go over all of them, so I will only leave you with a few.

First they are a squat model with a large square base that has a 12" charge. This means that they are easy to hide, and they when they do charge an enemy you can easily position them to contact more than one unit.

Moreover I find myself charging a lot of transports with them, not to kill the transport (but hey with 23 attacks that glance on 6s why not try) but mostly to gain the extra 12" of movement that goes along with the charge. While I do this I use the large bases to block all the exits (this is really easy to do since you can be exactly 2 inches from another beast).

Next, I find that they are a great unit to kill, or tie up stray units. I.E IG heavy weapons teams, SM devastators, Any tau or (non-assault) eldar.

then depending on the game I use them to tie up objectives or act as a wall while my gun line moves , very few people expect a 75 point unit of beasts to move 6" Fleet d6" and charge 12".

Maybe I will add more after class, but thats all for now.

Cheers!

A Haemy teamed with Wyches? That doesn't follow the fluff, I'm docking your Comp score!

I can never recall which composition score methods are used at which tourneys (does Rogue Trader have a set method?). I've seen everything from checklists with specific grading criteria to a simple question of "how well do you feel this army represents the race?" (and considering the *loads* of DE fluff out there I *love* to see that one) I forsee you losing points for not fielding any Fast options while fielding maxed Heavy and maxed Elite.

I know you and I disagree on the functionality of Warp Beasts and I'll sort of vaguely mumble that belief again. I really think you're handing out a kill point without much to show for it when you field those.

I will second the vote on the Trophy Racks - I think if those squads need to make a difficult leadership test they're so small what will it matter if they make it?

I'm also not fully sure I'm buying into the Nightshield on the Archon's Raider. Yeah, it might help you round one and it might keep you away from maybe a melta or bolter shot on round 2-3. But really by round 3 you're probably in a close combat of some sort or other, even if you seem to be going a little gunline with this build. I guess it might be worthwhile for use as a counter charge option, but with the Talos and three Wych squads isn't he going to be rushing forward for assault? I've never seen much value in dropping that upgrade on a Raider carrying an assault unit.

The other "big" weakness I see is in objective grabbing missions. With only one truly mobile Troop option you'll only be reliably able to nab objectives on your end of the board and be obligated to play the contesting game on all the others. It's workable and hardly a terrible plot since we're so good at contesting, but it feels a little risky, especially if on the roll off your opponent gets control of more objectives.

Other then that the build looks pretty sharp. The plethora of sniper squads should eat the mech meta game for breakfast, and your assault cadre looks very nice (I've only ever tried a Haemy with a Wych squad once, and got scared of the Destructor killing enough to deny charges. How do you feel it works for you?) I've gotten to try your sniper gunboat idea now, and am starting to come around to it as an option, but you're clearly confident using that. You've got a good mix of shooting and assault and enough speed and Raiders to reposition yourself fairly well if you need to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Clthomps wrote:Its unfortunate that in Thor's guide (which reminds me I have to PM him again) he suggests that they are worthless, and that mentality seems to be propagated by the few (mostly the newer) dark eldar players.

Ninja-ed!

And yeah, you do need to get me that PM, don't make me call my lawyers.

I know you and I disagree on the functionality of Warp Beasts and I'll sort of vaguely mumble that belief again. I really think you're handing out a kill point without much to show for it when you field those.

Maybe some mathammer will change your mind!


A warpbeast squad charging a:

5 man Tactical squad:

Round 1:

Initative 6:
Beastmaster: 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 Dead SM

Initative 5:
Beasts: 20 attacks , 10 hit, 5 Armor s=Saves, 1.65 Dead SM

Initative 4:
SM: 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1.33 Armor Saves, 1.11 Dead warpbeasts

End of round Warpbeast 2.65 , SM 1.11

Huzzah we continue combat and don't get shot to pieces!

Round 2:

Initative 6:
Beastmaster: 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 Dead SM

Initative 5:
Beasts: 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 armor saves, 1 Dead SM

Initative 4:
SM: 2 attacks, 1 Hit, .66 armor saves, .55 Dead warpbeast

Warpbeasts win again.

Total results after two rounds :

Warpbeast: 4.4 Dead space marines

Space marines: 1.66 Dead warp beasts




Now against a 10 man Non MEQ unit (guard, eldar, tau, etc.)

Round 1:

Initative 6:
Beastmaster: 4 attacks, 2.64 hit, 1.32 Dead non-meq

Initative 5:
Beasts: 20 attacks, 13.6 hit, 9.11 armor saves, 6 Dead Non-meq

Initative 4 or lower:
Non-Meq, 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 armor saves, .62 dead warpbeast.

Warpbeasts 7 Non-MEQ 1 Take a leadership test at -6



Now against rear armor 10:

Stationary:
24 attacks, 4.08 Glancing hits

Moved a bit:
24 attacks, 2.04Glancing hits

Moved a lot:
24 attacks, .69 Glancing hits

Ok now to stop beating that poor horse.

I will second the vote on the Trophy Racks - I think if those squads need to make a difficult leadership test they're so small what will it matter if they make it?

Yea, I am going to remove them.

I'm also not fully sure I'm buying into the Nightshield on the Archon's Raider. Yeah, it might help you round one and it might keep you away from maybe a melta or bolter shot on round 2-3. But really by round 3 you're probably in a close combat of some sort or other, even if you seem to be going a little gunline with this build. I guess it might be worthwhile for use as a counter charge option, but with the Talos and three Wych squads isn't he going to be rushing forward for assault? I've never seen much value in dropping that upgrade on a Raider carrying an assault unit.

I threw them on there as sort of an insurance policy for round one and two. As I am sure you are aware, it really sucks to be forced to footslog with your archon on turn one. I plan on sending him, the warpbeasts, a squad of wyches, a the Talos down one side, while keeping the other two wych squads behind the snipers for a counter assault. Any thoughts?

The other "big" weakness I see is in objective grabbing missions. With only one truly mobile Troop option you'll only be reliably able to nab objectives on your end of the board and be obligated to play the contesting game on all the others. It's workable and hardly a terrible plot since we're so good at contesting, but it feels a little risky, especially if on the roll off your opponent gets control of more objectives.

As you mentioned contesting is easy, my thoughts were that since I have 2 squads of wyches in raiders (plus the one raider sniper squad) holding back for a counter assault, I should have at least one mobile raider alive on turn 4-5 (or sooner if all the armor is destroyed by then), since 5th ed now lets anyone pile into the boats I like to load them up with the 2 Lance sniper squads and jet 24" towards the objective I want to take.

Other then that the build looks pretty sharp. The plethora of sniper squads should eat the mech meta game for breakfast, and your assault cadre looks very nice (I've only ever tried a Haemy with a Wych squad once, and got scared of the Destructor killing enough to deny charges. How do you feel it works for you?) I've gotten to try your sniper gunboat idea now, and am starting to come around to it as an option, but you're clearly confident using that. You've got a good mix of shooting and assault and enough speed and Raiders to reposition yourself fairly well if you need to.

The heamy's are mostly on the boats for a free lift, I like to have them disembark 2" away from my wyches and flame a different unit, or at the very least make the opponent split fire between my wyches (if they won combat to soon), my raider, some other squad or my heamy. You would be surprised how often they shoot the wyches, which leave you with a golden opportunity to mount up / walk 6", and drop a AP D6 Template on their faces.



As always its great to debate DE tactics with someone who has played more than 5 games

Thanks,
Chris

My issue with Warp Beasts has never really been how well they can kill stuff - though seeing their numbers versus AV 10 is interesting.

Clthomps wrote:I threw them on there as sort of an insurance policy for round one and two. As I am sure you are aware, it really sucks to be forced to footslog with your archon on turn one.

I plan on sending him, the warpbeasts, a squad of wyches, a the Talos down one side, while keeping the other two wych squads behind the snipers for a counter assault. Any thoughts?

I like it, that's a couple of targets that are all worthwhile to consider and reminds me of how I used to use Warp beasts back in 4th (oooh, look at me, kill the scary Warp Beasts, no really, we're worth some VPs, seriously!) You'll also be able to free up the other two Wych boats if fighting a gunline to put added pressure on your opponent. I'm used to pulling this maneuver with the Archon and Wych boats paired with Raider gunboats - and I use those gunboats both as a distraction and as a mobile wall to help shield the assault oriented Raiders. So my first thought is you're leaving yourself some slow options (like Mr. Talos there) paired up with an otherwise very fast moving assault force.

That said I see why the Wych/Haemy boats will definitely serve you better as counter strikers, since they'll invariably be rolling up on the CC specialist units your opponent is sending out and you want to leave some Raiders behind in case any snipers need to hop on them. Okay, I'll be honest, I'm already thinking "well if he just adds another Ravager...". So, no, for what you're building I think you've chosen the needed roles very carefully and properly. The Wych/Haemy are perfect for counter charges and defense and will provide needed extra movement amongst your footsloggers (something I'd wondered about until you explained the strategy) and your assault force is fairly fast and contains some good fire magnet/distraction units as well as an ability to deal with pretty much any sort of unit they might roll across. You'll probably really need to work the Ravagers and your mobility if going against horde Orks or something similar but you're well equipped to stomp a bloody hole in most MEQ lists

What do you think about dropping a squad of wyches and the Heamy's, for a dracon on a jetbike, inside a squad of bikes with a punisher armed syrabyte?

Its more Fluffy, and its a lot less KP. But I lose 3 flamer templates...

Bikes suck... unless you're doing a 3 unit, 2 blaster tank hunter squad, I don't like em. Too squishy for the cost.

I love running the dracon inside a close combat bike squad, it's an awful lot of fun. The biggest weakness is that you're going with a unit that can be quite embarrassingly fragile to even a bit of shooting. In addition to losing the flamer templates you also lose the Dark Lance platform and a piece of mobile terrain. So you're losing both some anti-tank power as well as some anti-infantry power via the templates.

Pros
Maintain 2 blasters
Equivalent (superior with the Dracon) CC unit to replaced Wych Squad
Easier to hide bikes from shooting then Raider
Less KPs (by 3) on the field
Fast Attack org slot filled

Cons
Loss of template weapons from all Wych Squads
Loss of Dark Lance (not that I'm sure your list will notice)
Loss of Raider option

The way you described your vision for the tactics of the army says that the RJBs will want to be part of the assault arm with the Talos, Warp Beasts, and Archon. The Talos will definitely be struggling to keep up (as will to a lesser extent the Warp Beasts if you opt to turbo boost at all) but then again there might be a lot of terrain. To my mind the terrain becomes a bit of a question now, as before you would have had a second Raider to shield your Archon boat with to provide it cover saves and try to obligate the firing upon the less valuable squad - now you'll really need to find cover for a Raider up whatever flank you swing. To a certain extent the RJBs can be a little more survivable then the Wych Raider if they turboboost. You probably wouldn't want them to hang back with the shooting aspect of the army as a counter charger simply because it's too valuable to have multiple Raiders near your troop options in 2/3 of the mission types you'll be playing.

To certain extent there is some debate about whether a RJB squad or a Raider with Wychs is going to be harder to kill. Though bikes are very vulnerable to shooting, they also have turboboost, are easier to give cover saves, and can't potentially be wiped out by a single explosion result like a tiny Wych squad can be (though you'll loose a tarpit option for enemy CC specialists, but then again those units will, if smart, be avoiding the Incubi and heading for your gunline anyway). So overall my gut says the RJBs will be good for you, but I'm uneasy with the ping to your horde killing capability you're taking with the loss of the the Haemy templates. Without then your horde killing power is basically reduced to blasting hordes with your Ravagers and then swooping in with the RJBs/Wyches/Incubi for a charge in mop up - and it's a risky option for any Wych squads probably. Then again, I suppose that's one of the uses you have for your Warp Beasts.

I think RJBs will help your comp and make the 1/3 KP missions you play a little easier. I think your anti-horde tech is slightly weakened as is your ability to contest and would also suggest it's making your Archon's boat slightly more vulnerable depending on terrain options. Depending on the horde meta where you're playing it could probably work pretty well.

i played dark eldar for many years, and found that a few tricks worked well with them. since you list is close, ill just suggest soime changes.

1. i think you have too many HQ. haemonculus are a hq choice, and you have 3 of them, along with a archon? most force orgs only allow 2 hq....unless i miss something.

in any case i find that the haemonculus just dont do as much as i would like. honestly, if your going to spend the points, get urien rakerith ansd his uber grots. 175 for him and 5 grotesques. you get a decent hq, with better stats, all the wargear, 5 bodygaurds, and they have buffed stats and feel no pain. plus he auto wounds!

2. instead of having multiple smaller unis of wyches, get 1 or 2 larger units, and mount them on raiders. wyches work best in CC, where the number of attacks they throw out overwhelm. a smaller unit cant do this, and is just asking to get bolters to the face. a 10 "man" unit is better.

3. the HQ setup is great. id loose the trophy racks, since you should not be loosing combat. a good way to ensure this, is buy more incubi, and think of taking drazhar. (double wounds!!) my ideal incubi unit is archon, 8 incubi, incubi master, and drazhar.

4.ravengers are the shiz-nit!

warriors on foot work great with 2 darklances and 2 blasters if you have the points. this way they make great static units, that can still move and dark lance something thats too close, and then assault. i usually field 3 -4 of these teams.

5.talos are fun, but lack of an invun save makes them lazcannon fodder. they are also fairly slow, and thus make easy targets. id almost suggest getting a third ravenger, or a unit of scourges with splinter cannons. reason i say this, is that your archon and incubi, teamed with the wyches will do all the close combat nastiness you need, but your mobile fire support is limited. 4 jump pack splinter cannons gives you a nice mobile high shot team that can provide some element of cover fire. this unit also helps keep attention away from your vehicles and dark lance warrior teams.

6. your wych unit should have a goblet of spite. its cheap, and allows you to always hit enemys on 3s, regardless of weapon skills. makes them handy for hitting high ws units, and is a nice buff regardless of your drugs options.

if your wondering about how to get points, by consolodating yout smaller wych teams, you drop a few of em, freeing points. also, trading out the 3 haemonculs basiclyy pays for urien, and by reducing the number of raiders you can pad the numbers in your incubi squad. i think that your wyches and incubi should be raider mounted, but everything else stays on foot. if you want some more transport mounted stuff to help "block" for your pricey units, a cheap bare bones raider squad could do the trick. personally i rarley had this problem, as i just ensured to deploy behind cover or out of LOS as much as possible, then move 24" first turn, hop out charge on the 2nd. if you do it right, your enemy might get 1 round of shooting at them....maybe.

hope those notes help.

DarthSpader wrote:i played dark eldar for many years, and found that a few tricks worked well with them. since you list is close, ill just suggest soime changes.

1. i think you have too many HQ. haemonculus are a hq choice, and you have 3 of them, along with a archon? most force orgs only allow 2 hq....unless i miss something.

You can have 3 Haemys in one HQ slot.

DarthSpader wrote:in any case i find that the haemonculus just dont do as much as i would like. honestly, if your going to spend the points, get urien rakerith ansd his uber grots. 175 for him and 5 grotesques. you get a decent hq, with better stats, all the wargear, 5 bodygaurds, and they have buffed stats and feel no pain. plus he auto wounds!

Urien is way overpriced for what he does. Scissorhands and Stinger already wound on a 2+, so no big deal there. Auto-wound destructor is tech, but 100 points for him.. ugh. Plus grotesques, even Uber grotesques are meh.

DarthSpader wrote:2. instead of having multiple smaller unis of wyches, get 1 or 2 larger units, and mount them on raiders. wyches work best in CC, where the number of attacks they throw out overwhelm. a smaller unit cant do this, and is just asking to get bolters to the face. a 10 "man" unit is better.

Most of the death comes from the squad leaders. A sybarite/succubus with an Agonizer on average kills 1 marine on a charge. It takes 6 regular wyches to get that same marine kill. At 42 points for a succubus (Agonizer/WW/Plasma) and 14 Points for a regular Wych (WW/Plasma), Succubi are twice as efficient. Therefore, the more the better.

DarthSpader wrote:3. the HQ setup is great. id loose the trophy racks, since you should not be loosing combat. a good way to ensure this, is buy more incubi, and think of taking drazhar. (double wounds!!) my ideal incubi unit is archon, 8 incubi, incubi master, and drazhar.

1. Too many to fit in a raider there.
2. Incubi Masters are vastly overpriced
3. That's WAY too much killy in one squad. You will wipe out utterly anything you assault, leaving you open to get shot to death. You want to win combat on your opponent's assault phase.

DarthSpader wrote:4.ravengers are the shiz-nit!

Agreed, Ravagers are awesome.

DarthSpader wrote:warriors on foot work great with 2 darklances and 2 blasters if you have the points. this way they make great static units, that can still move and dark lance something thats too close, and then assault. i usually field 3 -4 of these teams.

5.talos are fun, but lack of an invun save makes them lazcannon fodder. they are also fairly slow, and thus make easy targets. id almost suggest getting a third ravenger, or a unit of scourges with splinter cannons. reason i say this, is that your archon and incubi, teamed with the wyches will do all the close combat nastiness you need, but your mobile fire support is limited. 4 jump pack splinter cannons gives you a nice mobile high shot team that can provide some element of cover fire. this unit also helps keep attention away from your vehicles and dark lance warrior teams.

6. your wych unit should have a goblet of spite. its cheap, and allows you to always hit enemys on 3s, regardless of weapon skills. makes them handy for hitting high ws units, and is a nice buff regardless of your drugs options.

I agree with most of this.

DarthSpader wrote:if your wondering about how to get points, by consolodating yout smaller wych teams, you drop a few of em, freeing points. also, trading out the 3 haemonculs basiclyy pays for urien, and by reducing the number of raiders you can pad the numbers in your incubi squad. i think that your wyches and incubi should be raider mounted, but everything else stays on foot. if you want some more transport mounted stuff to help "block" for your pricey units, a cheap bare bones raider squad could do the trick. personally i rarley had this problem, as i just ensured to deploy behind cover or out of LOS as much as possible, then move 24" first turn, hop out charge on the 2nd. if you do it right, your enemy might get 1 round of shooting at them....maybe.

No, for the reasons stated above. Plus foot-slogging DE don't survive without a WWP, and even then it's iffy.