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Folks, I know there is no consensus about whether deff rollas are allowed to be used. It goes either way. I don't want this thread to degenerate into that argument.

If a Battlewagon with a Deff Rolla rams a dreadnought that chooses to make a "Death or Glory" attack, how am I supposed to resolve it?

Thanks
-Shelix

Your question should be, is it a ram or a tank shock?

I'd say it's a ram. The only thing different is what the dreadnought is doing. It comes under "Ramming a Walker" and the outcome refers to the ram, not a created tank shock.

pg 73. BGB

"if it chooses 'death or glory' and its attack fails to stop the ramming tank, the walker will not be ready for the impact and is hit on its rear armor in the collision."

Well, its a ram of course because the dreadnought is a vehicle with armor values.

But does the Deff Rolla affect the dreadnought? Seems like too much confusion there. Any unit that death or glory's a BW with a Deff Rolla takes D6 STR10 hits.

Dashofpepper wrote:Any unit that death or glory's a BW with a Deff Rolla takes D6 STR10 hits.

Seems like you want a certain answer by the way that sentence is phrased. You can take a further D6 STR10 hits, which is occuring in a tank shock, if the unit [that has just been tank shocked] makes a death or glory attempt. You may not want this to be a ram vs tank shock argument, but your result hinges on what you guys think it is.

This is really easy to resolve if you accept that a ram is a type of tank shock. If you don't, then this is an even grayer area within a gray area.

Apply Occam's Choppa at your discretion.

Erm....not looking for any particular answer, I promise. I don't even use Deff Rollas in my army list because I don't want to run into arguments.

Just tell me what happens when you ram a Dreadnought and you have a Deff Rolla on the battlewagon and the dread chooses to death or glory.

Dashofpepper wrote:Erm....not looking for any particular answer, I promise. I don't even use Deff Rollas in my army list because I don't want to run into arguments.

Just tell me what happens when you ram a Dreadnought and you have a Deff Rolla on the battlewagon and the dread chooses to death or glory.

The same thing that happens whenever you hit any vehicle with a rolla in your game.
If it works, you get 2d6 free hits along with a normal ram and walker DOG.
If it doesn't work, it's a normal ram with a normal walker DOG.

If you take the sentence "If the unit elects to make a Death or Glory attack, it takes a further D6 Strength 10 hits in addition to the usual effects." by itself then yes, if it makes a Death or Glory it takes an addition D6 Strength 10 hits in addition to the usual effect of the ram.

However, if you take the entire deff rolla rule a a whole (which you really should be) then the 'usual effects' more than likely refers to the usual effect of the deff rolla when making a tank shock. Which in this case you have to ask..do deff rolla's work against vehicles?...

...and the rest is history.

Gorkamorka is correct. Ramming a dreadnought is a ram.

If your view is that rammin is a type of tank shock in general, then that's effectively 2d6 hits. If you don't think that ramming is a type of tank shock, then the deff rolla has no effect because performing Death or Glory doesn't stop it from being a ram.

I might even go so far as to say "the walker will not be ready for the impact and is hit on its rear armor in the collision" means the 2d6 rolla hits are on back armor in a failed DOG (if rollas work to begin with).

Either way, don't DOG rollas if they work on you kids!
Unless you've got the saves for it and a weapon you can depend on to pen, of course.

The best thing to do is not make a DoG, unless you have a Multimelta

Gwar! wrote:The best thing to do is not make a DoG, unless you have a Multimelta

The multi-melta is a good sure fire way to kill the thing, I would also happily throw a DoG at it with a seismic hammer Ironclad.

Seismic hammer I would not be so happy with, I mean, yes, it's +1 on the damage table, but it's only a 1/3 chance to even penetrate, and it's only one hit. Best to take it on your front armour and be more likely to survive and charge it next turn imo.

The walker can choose to take the ram as a ram or to 'death or glory.' If it chooses the latter then it follows the rules for that including the Ork FAQ which states that a Deff Rolla inflicts 2d6 hits on any 'death or glory' attack. The case of walkers need not inform the debate about vehicles in general because it is a decision by the player if he wants to treat the ram under the rules governing 'death or glory' attacks.

olympia wrote:The walker can choose to take the ram as a ram or to 'death or glory.' If it chooses the latter then it follows the rules for that including the Ork FAQ which states that a Deff Rolla inflicts 2d6 hits on any 'death or glory' attack. The case of walkers need not inform the debate about vehicles in general because it is a decision by the player if he wants to treat the ram under the rules governing 'death or glory' attacks.

Performing Death or Glory doesn't turn it into a tank shock. The BRB refers to a case when walkers can perform death or glory during a ram, and refers to the process as a ram even after Death or Glory. It doesn't refer to it as a tank shock like the codex AND faq, therefore it isn't a tank shock unless you count rams as tank shocks. The FAQ does not say "a Deff Rolla inflicts 2d6 hits on any 'death or glory' attack". It says "a unit that successfully stops a Deff Rolla-equipped Battlewagon’s Tank Shock".

And if you're referring to the codex entry, the unit is defined as already having taken damage (hence the further damage) and is defined in the process of the battlewagon's tank shock. You can't take a sentence out of a rule and apply it to everything, you need the entire rule.

The Ork FAQ rules that deff rollas affect units that Death or Glory. The question is not, 'does a deff rolla affect vehicles,' but rather 'did your unit death or glory?' If the answer to the latter is 'yes' and then as per the ork faq you are taking hits from the rolla.

Quote the FAQ. It does not say 'any Death or Glory triggers the deff rolla attacks', nor is it vague enough to suggest it occurs outside of tank shock.

Q: Does a unit that successfully stops a Deff Rolla-equipped Battlewagon's Tank Shock suffer any hits?
A: Yes, it does. In fact, it suffers 2d6 S10 hits!

I can see why you are confused. Let me walk you through it. Under the ramming a walker section it gives the option for the walker to death or glory. Where are the rules governing 'death or glory' to be found? Under the Tank Shock section. You counter that it says 'tank shock' not 'ram.' Indeed. However, by choosing to death or glory the walker has chosen to adopt the rules governing tank shocks. There are no rules for 'death or glory' under the ramming section.

The walker rules define the Death or Glory attempt as stopping the 'ram'. You're basing your argument on the Death or Glory attempt turning the process into a tank shock, which evidently it doesn't. Either that or you're taking a single sentence of a rule out of context to apply to more than it does. The deff rolla attack operates during a tank shock, as per the codex and the FAQ. Nothing states that it operates whenever a unit makes a Death or Glory attempt other than the specific battlewagon entry which occurs during a tank shock. Even if you perform the Death or Glory, you are not in a tank shock, you aren't receiving further attacks from the Deff Rolla, meaning you certainly cannot be "the unit".

I am not confused, you are. The reason Death or Glory isn't under the ramming section is because Death or Glory can only be performed during a ram by walkers. And they haven't referred to the ram becoming a tank shock.

So far this has kept within established boundaries of politeness..let's keep it that way please folks.

ta.

I was only responding that time. I kept it clean of provocation

Where are the rules governing 'Death or Glory' to found?
a) in the Tank Shock section
b) in the ramming section

If you answered 'a' you are correct. If the walker wants to take the ram as the ram it can; if it wants to Death or Glory then the only rules we have to govern that action are found under tank shock.

Ridcully wrote: I kept it clean of provocation

Good, that's what we ask from people. Makes everyone's days much easier and nicer all round.

olympia wrote:Where are the rules governing 'Death or Glory' to found?
a) in the Tank Shock section
b) in the ramming section

If you answered 'a' you are correct. If the walker wants to take the ram as the ram it can; if it wants to Death or Glory then the only rules we have to govern that action are found under tank shock.

Or, you could read the walker rules which allow it to death or glory in response to a ram like infantry would to a tank shock.

That faq response was to cover a case the rules didn't cover clearly (the order of operations in stopping the rolla wagon as it hits you). Just because it used somewhat general language doesn't mean you should run off with it and reverse engineer it to say that the DoGer must have been taking hits in the case that he doesn't stop it.

The Death or Glory attempt doesn't mean you have to follow all rules for tank shock. The tank shock doesn't continue if it fails to stop the ramming tank, if the TANK SHOCK continued (as per the Death or Glory rules under tank shock) then the Deff Rolla would stop where it is as it is within 1" of an enemy vehicle.

Gorkamorka wrote:

olympia wrote:Where are the rules governing 'Death or Glory' to found?
a) in the Tank Shock section
b) in the ramming section

If you answered 'a' you are correct. If the walker wants to take the ram as the ram it can; if it wants to Death or Glory then the only rules we have to govern that action are found under tank shock.

Or, you could read the walker rules which allow it to death or glory in response to a ram.

The walker rules tell me to do a death or glory which is a sub-heading of Tank Shock.

I want to thank you all for allowing my 1000th post to be in a thread about deff rollas. I am grateful for this opportunity. I wish to thank gork and mork, and the Emperor, and Slaanesh, and...I know I'm forgetting people. I love you.

The walker rules also tell you it's against a ram, to stop a ram, or allow a ram to continue upon failing.

The Deff Rolla rules never mention a ram, nor a DoG attempt used outside of the specific Tank Shock scenario where a unit has been hit once and will be hit once more.

Congrats Olympia! I hope that this endless debate can be resolved before I hit my own 1000th post.

Fun fact of the thread-
'Ram' did not exist when Deffrollas were invented.

Was 5th out when the Orks! FAQ was released?

Gitzbitah wrote:Fun fact of the thread-
'Ram' did not exist when Deffrollas were invented.

Well... the 5th ed Rulebook hadn't yet been published, but the Ork codex was supposedly written with 5th in mind.

Was 5th out when the Orks! FAQ was released?

Yes. The current version of the Ork FAQ also includes a reference to Apocalypse. So well after 5th edition was released.