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So after much thought I've realized that initial idea of just buying a huge amount of models might be a bad idea. After all I'm just starting and who knows if I'll really like 40k or if I'll have the time to make the most of the money put in. Therefore, I decided I might as well go with the popular suggestion of starting at 500 points. However, I've run into a little problem...I can't really think of a proper list to put together at such a low level. At first I thought I might use tactical squads as a base, but then I realised that they took up quite a bit of points. (I was going to put in two of them) I'm not even sure if they're worth it if they're not 10 man strong either @_@

Anyways I'm just looking for suggestion on how to build an army at 500 points for Space Marines. I'm just going for a general list that'd be competitive, but still fun to play. Oh, I'm pretty set on going Salamander if that matters at all xD

Also I've been wondering...would there be any point of using let's say...sternguard at such a low point cost? I mean a squad of 7 with combi weapons is 210 points which is almost half so...yeah ._. Would they be worth their price in such a small army?

Captain 100

Scouts w/Sniper Rifles (5) 75

Scouts w/Sniper Rifles (5) 75

Land Raider 250

500 points of your opponent hating you!

So what you can do it the following:

Vulkan (as it is a Salamanders list) - 190
Tac Squad 10 man in droppod, melta gun, MM - 210
2x Attack Bike Squad with a melta attack bike - 100

That 500 points. Vulkan and squad drops in where you want them (mostly, it is a drop pod after all) and the attack bikes zoom around blowing stuff up.

Sound fun?

A lot depends on whether or not you're going to follow Force Organization Charts (FOC). At 500 points it's tough for many armies to field anything reasonable. Marines aren't as troubled by this, but your opponents might be. In any case, something to consider talking about w/ your opponents. You might use the old Combat Patrol rules, or just make up something simple such as "Must have at least 1 Troop; cannot have vehicles with total armor greater than 32." Notably, most low points rules in that vein would disallow the Landraider above.

You should also look closely at the Combat Squad and deployment rules. I'm not sure the above Vulkan list is legal per the normal FOC even if you combat squad the Tac Marines, as it only has one Troop selection before deployment. I could be wrong about this & don't have my books with me, but it's worth double checking.


Some other thoughts:

- At 500 points, many armies can field ridiculously more models than Marines can. The advantage the Marines generally have is that their heavy weapons are comparatively cheap, so you might want to stock up on area, template, and multi-shot weapons (plasma cannons, flamers, heavy bolters). Depending on FOC, you may also be able to assume less or no hard vehicles, making meltas less important and freeing you up to take other weapons.

- Most of the Space Marine HQs are pretty fragile and die fairly easily; the generics especially can't go toe-to-toe with many other armies' HQs. If your FOC requires an HQ, make sure he's going to do something helpful. Consider also the kinds of tables you'll play on. If you'll also be playing on smaller tables, Chapter Tactics and so on is less useful, making it possibly more beneficial than usual to bring a Chaplain and make a unit Fearless.

- Some of the non-generic HQs are more survivable, but still a huge risk. Vulkan, for example, ties up almost 40% of your points in one model. If he goes down, you're in trouble, and can he really singlehandedly (or through his effects) take on 40% of the enemy? That's questionable.

- If your FOC rules allow them, Dreadnoughts can easily dominate these kinds of games, being able to take & use heavy weapons on the move as well as being tough in close combat. With the points so low, you're less likely to encounter expensive Power Fists and so on, meaning a Dread is frequently untouchable and can wipe out squads with impunity. Ditto Terminators, which are also frequently disallowed in Combat Patrol and other low point games (no 2+ saves).

- Sternguard always rock the house and are allowed under every small games rules I've seen. They're super versatile and a good swing unit if you don't know what exactly you'll be facing. Expensive, but they do ok in close combat and have a bunch of good ranged options, even without combi-weapons.

Hmm alright so I guess I'll use the chaplin as a HQ and Sternguard as an elite choice for sure. Are there any good CC units to bring at such a low point level? I was thinking of using an assault squad, but then again I'm not really sure.

Also I'm trying to make the list pretty so that it could fit in most FOC. Though the dreadnought does seem like a huge sign saying "Shoot me!".

In a lot of ways, my Sternguard are my assault units: They drop in via pod right in something big's face, blow it up, and then either get ridiculously pummeled with heavy weapons, or immediately assaulted by hordes of mean guys. That's over simplifying a bit, my guys are usually reasonably supported by other units, but if you play them aggressively forward on the table, they're probably going to get assaulted. Remember that they've each got 2 attacks, so they're not slouches in combat, just not cheap either.

My impression of assault squads (I do not use them currently) is that they're reasonably priced & the mobility is a huge bonus in small points games, particularly if you play on a smaller table.

The Dreadnought does attract a lot of fire, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Every shot at a Dread is a shot not on your guys holding an objective. Being a fire magnet can also have additional effects in low point games, where it's tough to field vehicles and dedicated heavy weapons. If your opponent is counting on a missile launcher in a tac squad to take down your Dreadnought, it's effectively pinned down that unit since it can't move and shoot missiles.


All that said, if I had to play a 500 pt game tomorrow, I would try rolling:

Chaplain w/ Powerfist (115)
Sternguard 5x w/ 2x Combi-Melta, Drop Pod (170)

Tac Squad 5x w/ Razorback (130)

Scouts 5x w/ Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher or Hellfire Blast HB (85 pts)


Chaplain and Sternguard go in Pod, drop onto enemy's biggest vehicle or psychological element if it's there, their home objective if it's not. Scouts camp home objective. Tac Squad goes in Razorback, deploys or moves to nearby objective and camps if there are several on table, and/or moves to support Sternguard or Scouts depending on how things look. Sternguard and Chaplain are really looking to kill enemy vehicles and/or put the opponent's focus on defending his turf rather than advancing on yours. The other guys are just looking to hang onto objectives and support the Sternguard as they can. For the scouts going with missile launcher or hellfire heavy bolter is really about whether or not you think you'll face vehicles.

This is a little different from what I've run in small games in the past, mostly due to models I have and my emotional attachment to them (love my captain), but similar schemes have worked ok for me.

Alternatively, you could drop the Sternguard for:

Predators 2x w/ 2xHBs (170); or
Landspeeders 3x w/ 1xMM (170); or
Dreadnought w/ Drop Pod (140), leaving some room for other goodies.

Each of those is pretty credible and probably pretty hard. I'm mostly biased for the Sternguard because they're cool and frequently psychologically devastating, but I am planning on trying these versions in the future (especially the first two).

In the other thread I started the list that was brought up was similiar to the one you presented above, but instead of a transport for the tac squad there were more goodies for everybody involved.

So is the rhino worth the exchange for goodies and I have to agree that Sternguard fluff is pretty neat. I rather have them over the other options.

putting in my idea

hq
chaplin 100

elites
sternguard vets
2 combi flamers

troops
10 marines
1 missile launcher
1 flamer
sergant has a chain sword

5 scouts
sergant+3 other have bolters
1 missile launcher


split the tac squad into combat squads, using the one with the sergeant+flamer to get into CC or take an objective use the other to take an objective near/in your deployment zone or hang back and fire. put the chaplin in with the sternguard, and get them into CC. infiltrate the scouts into cover by an objective if possible.

I was thinking of taking a librarian instead of a chaplin to use his two more offensive powers to destroy things...since at such a low point level no one will be able to deal with it properly?

Thats what I would suggest, you seemed set on going with the chaplin so i put him in there. as for his powers you should choose them to compliment whatever squad you are going to stick him with however i would hesitate on taking vortex of doom becaus if he nukes his own squad itll be a big loss in such a small game. A predator with an assault cannon and heavy bolter sponsons might be a good investment instead of the scouts in my previous list as it has much better mobility, firepower and possibly surviveability in such a small game where not as many strength 8-10 weapons will be available.

Hmm the predator sounds like a good idea, but I kind of want to met most FOC and have the required 2 troops?

oops, that slipped my mind,

in place of the tactical squad how about

5 scouts
missile launcher

5 scouts
missile launcher

then you can add 2 more combi weapons to the veteran squad

outflank 1 unit of scouts and the enemy will have even less time to try and take them down while they worry about the vets+predator

Hmm the predator is tempting but I'm thinking maybe of switching it up to something like this

Librarian

Sternguard
5 man
Drop pod

Tac Squad
5 man
Rhino transport

Scouts

I'm not sure of their exact loadouts...yet

if thats what youd do make the rhino a razorback for only 5 more points itll have a twin linked heavy bolter

Librarian

Sternguard
5 man
missile launcher
2 combi melta
2 combi flamers
Drop pod

Tac Squad
5 man
meltabombs
razorback transport

5 Scouts
missile launcher


Automatically Appended Next Post:
if thats what youd do make the rhino a razorback for only 5 more points itll have a twin linked heavy bolter

Librarian

Sternguard
5 man
missile launcher
2 combi melta
2 combi flamers
Drop pod

Tac Squad
5 man
meltabombs
razorback transport

5 Scouts
missile launcher

Okay the final list I've come up with so far is pretty much what you've suggested above.

HQ
Librarian - Force Dome, Smite/Gate of Infinity/vortex of doom? tbh I really don't know what to pick up for libby's powers.
100 points

Elites
Sternguard
5 man
4 combi weapons split between flamers and melta
Drop Pod
180 points

Troops
Tac Squad
5 man
Sergeant w/ Meltabombs
Razorback
135 points

Scout Squad
5 man strong
1 Heavy Bolter w/ Hellfire rounds

I figure I can use the scouts to hold somewhere and with the Heavy Bolter they should be able to hold off a horde or something. Then if armour head their way, I'm assuming most armies at this point level only have one so I'm betting on the sternguard taking it out, the tac squad can try to melta bomb it. Also I'm guessing it'd be a wise move to put the librarian with the sternguard in the drop?

Good plan? ._.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:HQ
Librarian - Force Dome, Smite/Gate of Infinity/vortex of doom? tbh I really don't know what to pick up for libby's powers.
100 points

Firstly, in my opinion Null Zone is by far the most powerful Librarian power, assuming you have him attached to a strong squad. This is also assuming you are playing against an oppponent who uses units with Invun's. Of course at 500 points this may be very little. Gate of Infinity is also quite strong, as it's able to remove the Librarian and any attaching squad from unwanted Assaults. However, take what you feel you want. If you want the Librarian to support the unit he's attached to take Null Zone/GoI/ Force Dome, if you want him to enhance the firepower of the unit give him Smite/The Avenger/Vortex of Doom. If you want to mix it up between support and strength by all means, go ahead. I would stay away from the powers I haven't listed as they are very situational or lackluster at best. As previously mentioned I would take Vortex of Doom at your own risk. At 500 points you're looking at a death plate being dropped bang over half your list.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:I figure I can use the scouts to hold somewhere and with the Heavy Bolter they should be able to hold off a horde or something. Then if armour head their way, I'm assuming most armies at this point level only have one so I'm betting on the sternguard taking it out, the tac squad can try to melta bomb it. Also I'm guessing it'd be a wise move to put the librarian with the sternguard in the drop?

Secondly, you have to add Meltabombs to the squads to actually use them, no squad gets them by default. I don't think you'll be facing many hordes at 500 points, maybe only Tyranids and Orcs would put such a list, but they're still inclined to Tyrant/Nobz spam.

If you have your heart set on using Sternguard, go ahead. If you want the strongest 500 point list you can possibly fathom, I'd start looking at other units. Try and get synergy rather than giving units specific jobs. For example a Chaplain and Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws, he gives them re-rolled failed hits, they have re-rolled failed wounds, nasty unit.

Hmm well I've changed the list around now and this is pretty much what I've come up with.

HQ
Librarian
- Terminator Armour
- Gate of Infinity, Vortex of Doom
125

Troops
Tactical Squad
- 10 man w/ Flamer and MM
- Rhino
205

Scout Squad
- 5 man w/ 4 snipers and Heavy Bolter with Hellfire rounds
85

Heavy Support
Dakka Predator
85

500 points

Do you think this list would be okay? I've only really gotten one opinion on it so far and I'd appreciate your insight.

Edit: Oh, and do you have any suggestion on what it could use for that extra kick?

Edit 2: Changed one of the powers to Vortex of Doom since I just realized Term armour grants him relentless. I think I'm okay with wagering him taking one wound when the payout is a s10 ap 1 blast.

Id say that looks like a good, balanced list.

Who is your librarian going to move with? The scouts?

If you move him around alone he'll die in one shooting phase.

In my 500p i usually run something like :

librarian (not terminator armour)

10 man tac in rhino
5 man tac in razorback

That way the librarian can jump in the razorback with the 5 man tac squad.

Oh, I was hoping the terminator armour might've been enough to last him at least a single shooting phase...I guess I never really thought that through. I always thought I'd have him hang back with the scouts and then when the tac squad needed help he'd GoI and drop a vortex of doom on the biggest threat, but that plan doesn't seem really well thought out not that I think about ._.

The terminator armor is great and I often use it. However I still think you need someone to soak up shooting wounds.

For example, if a t-l lascannon razorback fires at him (48" range):

3+ to hit (rerollable)
2+ to wound

5+ to save
Instant death if the save fails.

And thats basically a pimped up transports shooting phase. Lots of small arms fire will get you two 1's quite easily.

I guess it could work to stay back with the scouts and when needed GoI to the battle, but I think its a gamble.

HQ
Librarian
100

Troops
Tactical Squad
- 10 man w/ Flamer and Ml
- razorback
220

Scout Squad
- 5 man w/ 4 snipers and Heavy Bolter with Hellfire rounds
85

Heavy Support
Dakka Predator
85

now the librarin is safe in the razorback w/a combat squad, and you have 10 points to do what you like with (FYI you added you tactical squad wrong its 215 for a basic squad and a rhino)

bld456 wrote:HQ
Librarian
100

Troops
Tactical Squad
- 10 man w/ Flamer and MM
- razorback
220

Scout Squad
- 5 man w/ 4 snipers and Heavy Bolter with Hellfire rounds
85

Heavy Support
Dakka Predator
85

now the librarin is safe in the razorback w/a combat squad, and you have 10 points to do what you like with (FYI you added you tactical squad wrong its 215 for a basic squad and a rhino)

Actually a basic squad and a rhino is 205p, like he had listed.

If you combat squad with razorbacks I dont think the short range multimelta is the right option for the heavy weapon. If they are going to be left behind the missile launcher offer a greater range.

my bad, missed the "L" key edited. am i missing a dedicated transport rule or something? 180+35=215

@Sgt.Sunshine

I'm a bit confused here... I see a lot of other people posting lists, but I really don't see your input. So...

What do YOU want in your list? A very "assault" in your face force, a shooting force, etc. Do you like scouts? Landraiders? Heavy Armor? Landspeeders? etc...

If you could maybe lay out which units you want and how you kinda want to build up your force (like what you want it to become) I think you would get more responses that would be to your liking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bld456 wrote:my bad, missed the "L" key edited. am i missing a dedicated transport rule or something? 180+35=215

Tac Squad = 90 points.

5 Extra marines (16 PPM) = 80

Rhino = 35

90 + 80 (170) + 35 = 205.

To the OP:

It's also worth mentioning that if you use a captain as your HQ and choose to mount him on a bike then you can pick other bikers as troop choices, if you like the flavour of that kind of thing. Sadly I don't have the books to hand right now, but I vaguely remember messing about with a similar list a few weeks ago and I ended up with a captain, five bikes or so and a tooled up scout squad.

A big part of this process is who you game with and how they will react to your list. Personally, if I rolled up for a 500pt game with a bunch of armoured vehicles, I suspect I'd be ribbed for being a cheesy b**tard! It's up to you though

Ah, well to respond to those asking what I'm actually looking for in an army I was eventually thinking of going salamanders with Vulkan as one of the HQs.

Of course this will be when I get to higher points. I'm basically looking to eventually roll out a mechanized army. When the point cost gets higher I plan to put in Assault terminators, two dreads in drop pods, land speeder squads, tac squad, another predator, and a sternguard squad w/ librarian.

In other words I'm looking to make more of a shooting oriented army. Though I understand I need at least a bit of assault...right?

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:In other words I'm looking to make more of a shooting oriented army. Though I understand I need at least a bit of assault...right?

Well lists can be successful with little to no assault based units, as long as your guns are big enough. Tau are usually the only army that can pull this off.

Might I remind you, however, that Vulkan's passive bonus does cover Thunder Hammers also. When your list was big enough to fit in some TH/SS Terminators without giving up the essentials, they make a very good selection with Vulkan at the helm.