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Alright, there's a tournament up in December, and I'm trying to get a list put together for it. Here's the basic plan

Warboss
PK, armor, TLshoota, Cybork, attack squig
@120 points

Big Mek
KFF+armor
@90 points

ELITES

14 Lootas 210

14 Kommandos (snikrot and two burnas) 255

TROOPS

Nobz (mixed and matched gear, Edit; Nob with PK and armor, nob with PK, BP, cybork and armor, Nob with PK, Cybork, and armor, nob with Big Choppa, WB, cybork, and armor, nob with big choppa, cybork, and armor, nob with big choppa bosspole and armor, nob with banner cybork and armor, nob with bosspole cybork and armor, nob with cybork and armor painboy with cybork.~440 points) ok, now I've got my math straight
Dedicated transport-Battlewagon, kannon, 'ard case, boarding plank, big shootasX2 ram rpj, grabbin klaw, armor 155

Boyz (20)
Nob with PK/BP, 2x big shootas, 170 points(slugga/choppa)

Boyz (12)
Nob with PK/BP, shootas, trukk, 157 points (I may swap these out for slugga/choppa)

FAST ATTACK

Deffkoptas (all rokkits, three) 135 points

Heavy Support

Battlewagon (2x Big Shootas, Ram, RPJ, Armor) 120 points

Deployment: Trukk and 20 boyz in the other wagon behind the 'ard case (mostly) which contains both the warboss and the big mek attached to the nobz. Snikrot in reserve, Deffkoptas will scout-pop something if I have 1st turn, or outflank if I don't...or not depending on what the game is. Lootas try to get deployed into a good position.

Thoughts? is my math off?

Solid army. I think its a little light on the troops aspect, but thats alright. Looks a little small too. If you have any multiples of units just copy and paste the entry until you have the right number.

Ard case doesnt make any sence. You have uber close combat squad in a vehicle. You cannot assault from that vehicle. The vehicle is useless for them. Simple as that. Battlwagon is covered by clever positioning, its front armour 14 AND its cover from KFF. You dont need to cripple your nobz unless you are planning to loose . I suggest bosspole for warboss. If anyone breaches that he breaches that so many times it will destroy the vehicle open topped or not (melta vets with some TL lascannons from vendetta etc.)

w0chtulka wrote:Ard case doesnt make any sence. You have uber close combat squad in a vehicle. You cannot assault from that vehicle. The vehicle is useless for them. Simple as that. Battlwagon is covered by clever positioning, its front armour 14 AND its cover from KFF. You dont need to cripple your nobz unless you are planning to loose . I suggest bosspole for warboss. If anyone breaches that he breaches that so many times it will destroy the vehicle open topped or not (melta vets with some TL lascannons from vendetta etc.)

Why would you buy the boss a pole? The squad already has one, and it's one that can't be singled out in CC like an IC can.
I'll second the ??? on 'ard case though. Not sure why you'd want that.

Gorkamorka wrote:
I'll second the ??? on 'ard case though. Not sure why you'd want that.

Because it makes sense to me for boarding planking. I can roll up to the land raider and explode it from the comfort of my wagon, assault termis pile out and they need a 6 to hit me, then I jump out and charge them. It also makes the wagon far more difficult to kill outside melta range (because once I get inside melta range, I'm in charge range)

Also has something to do with the model I plan to use/convert for it.

You jump out and you get charged thats it. You want second bosspole due to wound allocation in shooting where your BP nob may accidentaly get wounded and killed even if he is not "picked off". Also killing warboss requires guts


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Better thing is to stick deff rolla and break that land raider with deffrolla cuz it hits automatically


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Why 14 lootas? It wierd while you can take 15 (yea ork logic)

Because with 14 they are still effective while not costing quite as many points.

And I mean that I would hide in the wagon for a whole turn after I explode the land raider, if I get out on the next turn, before I move the wagon, I can assault.

Also, deffrollas encourage dangerous behavior with 150-170 point tanks, I don't like them that much.

Edit: and the warboss is an IC, so he's separate too, and if the big mek is in there as well it becomes a fearless unit, and you've gotta kill some of them to force a leadership.

The warboss is fine.

The big mek, going with lootas? If so a bosspole can come in useful. Oh, just read going with the warboss. Serves no purpose besides giving a cover save to their tank. The big mek isn't good in combat and thats where the warboss and nobz will be.

I personally don't rate kommandos. 6+ armour save outflanking isn't good IMO.

How many nobz have you got?

Don't put a 'ard case on the nobz wagon, they cannot assault out of it :(

Split your deffkopters into three single units, I did this in a game yesterday and it worked a treat. When they get shot you've got three targets, so if one takes 7 wounds then your only losing one and not possible 2 -3. Also you don't take morale tests either for one deffkopter as its only one per unit. I did some tactica on deffkopters on my blog, take a look here is my link http://imperiusdominatus.blogspot.com

mercer wrote:
How many nobz have you got?

9+painboy, with the gear you see, (and about halfway painted) though I may drop a PK, donno what to replace it with.

Maybe if I dropped a klaw and added three kombi-skorchas?

The mek has a statline of a nob, and it's not just the one wagon he's covering, he's covering all of them within 6".

I'll have to try the 3x deffkopta trick, but the other thing I was thinking of was replacing them with 3x wartrakks with the same weapon.

On the Warboss, I'd rather have a shoota-skorcha than a TL shoota. However, skipping either and saving 5 pts is better.

The KFF Mek, Lootas, Snikrot Kommandos and Deffkoptas are all good choices.

Nobz (10) PK (x3), armor (x9), BP (x2), cybork (x10), Big Choppa (x3), WB, painboy. +Dedicated transport-Battlewagon, kannon, 'ard case, boarding plank, big shootasX2 ram, rpj, grabbin klaw, armor = 595 pts, ouch!
I'd drop 3 nobs, 1 PK, 1 Big choppa, 'ard case, ram, 1 Big shoota, grabbin klaw and save 150 points! Especially since you plan to add the boss and the mek to this krew.

Boyz (20) I would have shootas on this group

Trukk Boyz (12), I would have slugga/choppas on this squad. You are 10 points too high here unless you forgot to list some upgrades.

Battlewagon, OK, but I'd skip the ram and armor (+15 points back).

Deployment: Solid starting plan, though with the KFF mek on the Nobzwagon, you don't have to hide the trukk and Boyzwagon behind it. You just have to be within 6" of it to get a 4+ cover save.
With the points you could shave off, you could add another trukk boys squad or some grot objective squatters/cover for the lootas.


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Howeverr, changing the deffkoptas to 3 units will add killpoints for your opponents when you draw those missions.

starbomber109 wrote:

mercer wrote:
How many nobz have you got?

9+painboy, with the gear you see, (and about halfway painted) though I may drop a PK, donno what to replace it with.

Maybe if I dropped a klaw and added three kombi-skorchas?

The mek has a statline of a nob, and it's not just the one wagon he's covering, he's covering all of them within 6".

I'll have to try the 3x deffkopta trick, but the other thing I was thinking of was replacing them with 3x wartrakks with the same weapon.

Hm, ok. Reason I asked as I have 7 + painboy and mine are all individually armed with wargear. See, I don't like wasting points on multiple bosspoles etc when they have little benefit besides wound allocation.

Thats true, that means your going to have to move your force as one to get the 4+ cover save.

My point is with the big mek that it might have the statline of a nob, but it costs a damn lot more and has no wargear to pack it up i.e burna for a power weapon

I haven't tried wartrakks but deffkopters don't take terrain tests. Wartrakks do, but get to re-roll them if I remember. Plus wartrakks are armour 10 open topped so are quite weak :(

I can't give you as specific advice as I'd like, because I don't have the codex handy.
You do have a solid base for a good army, but your few weaknesses are glaring, and I'd take FULL advantage of them, if you were my opponent.

First off, you MUST drop the 'Ard Case. It will be far more a hindrance than help.
I understand your point about how you plan on using it... but that's a bad assumption. You aren't going to be fighting MEQ'a every time.
IMO, the ram is good on it, but Extra Armor almost never gets its' points back. You don't need the Plank or grabbin Klaw, either. Save the points.

Troops.
Troops, troops, troops, troops, troops

Also - All trukks should have a ram & RPJ. No reason to risk hobbling your OWN vehicles on the way in. Also, that extra inch from the RPJ can mean the difference between a turn 1 charge or not!

At this level of point, especially for a tournament game, you should have a minimum of 4 troop choices.

The reasons you've been given for giving the Warboss a pole are solid. You should maximize your bosspole quota. Take one on every model that can (Except the Nobs unit... about 1 pole per 3 models is a good ratio there).
Speaking of Nobs... one of them says "WB." Is taht a Waaagh Banner?
If not, you should have one.

Kommandos blow. Really. Drop 'em.
You'll never get your points back from them... or, at least, not often enough to matter.
Snikrot gives them a great ability but, with 6+ armor, it's like having a wet paper bag for protection! : )

If you make the changes I suggested, you should have enough points (maybe with a little tweaking) to add another trukk boy unit and a third Battlewagon to put your Lootas in.

Eric

Magickalmemories if a trukk has red paint job and moves 19" (flat out) then you will not get first turn charge as its moved more than 12". If you only move 13" I doubt you'll be in assault range on your first turn.

Dont take so many nobz because then you have SUPERUBERKILLERSKILLEDCCWUNITTHATKICKSASSESALLTHETIME who will unfortunately get shot at all the time with meltas, lascannons and other heavy weaponary. Giving the battlewagon deffrolla doest bring this up much Armour plates are GREAT UPGRADE! RPJ is great but you cannot assault first turn as orks unless you have deffkoptas or teleporting shokk attack gun trukk 13" + wierdboy 6" waagh and assault 6"

Alright, taking in all the suggestions I've decided to edit my list bit

New Nobz (smaller) 7 total

Painboy

PK-BP

PK

Bigchoppa-WB (yes this means waaagh banner)

BigChoppa

BigChoppa BP

Nob BP

(cybork on all, armor on nobz~330 points)

Dropping both battlewagon armors and the 'ard case nets 35 more points, and I have enough for another trukk full of boyz. Grabbin Klaw is important because quick vehicles can outrun my wagon, I need to be able to catch them when they come close and hold them down, boarding plank is important because if I'm forced to jump out to explode a land raider, I can get counter-charged by the assault termis with TH/SS (or burned/shot to death by his entire army).

Snikrot is vital, even if he does nothing the whole game but scare people away from the board edge, that's a good thing, that means they are closer to the center where I can get at them easier. While they do only have a 6+ save, that's exactly the same as regular ork boyz, only they cost just 4 more points. I pay 4 points extra per kommando for stikkbombs, scouts, infiltrate, and move through cover. Their effect is more psychological as well as "Say goodbye to your oblits!"

I used to play an army list much like yours (OP). I've spent many games and tournaments mixing and matching that basic premise and refining what I was playing until I got where I think I want to be. My advice is based off of my own experiences, which are (to date) incredibly effective.

1. I don't use the "nob squad" anymore. I used to take Ghazghkull Thraka + a squad of individually equipped nobs, and they would be my super unit. Turn 2, Ghazghkull Waaaughs! and gets a 2+ invulnerable save, and I would end up splitting he and the nobs off to deal with different things. Ghazghkull would splunk into a terminator unit and the Nobs would go look for something easier to kill where they would wtfpwn without taking a lot of wounds. Nowadays, I take Ghazghkull and a squad of regular boyz. Ghazghkull is pretty much guaranteed to kill whatever he assaults, and having 10-18 boyz backing him up, one of which is a nob with a PK doesn't hurt.

2. I firmly believe that assault based and shooting based Ork armies shouldn't be mixed. Lootas are a great unit in a certain theme. But if the focus of your army isn't dakka, you're going to have one vulnerable unit in the back sitting still and you're basically going to present less than your full strength to your enemies. That's a theme I need to key in on. In an 1850 game, I have 1,850 points of the same thing, theme-wise. If I take an assault-based army, I have 1850 points worth of assault. If I'm mechanized, my trukks have big shootas, and my battlewagons have big shootas to sacrifice to the dice gods of weapon-destroyed. Everything else is assault based. That 1850 points kerrunched around the board as a single entity.

I love when people keep reserves, or have deep-striking elements, or deploy across their entire deployment zone. Every one of those situations is almost a guaranteed victory for me. That means my 1,850 points get to fight against less than 1,850 points of the enemy army. I played a Tau player the other day, and won the roll-off, obviously choosing to go first. He kept half his army in reserve to deal with the objectives late game. I was ecstatic. That was half his army NOT shooting at me for two turns. 1,000 points of Tau aren't enough to stop 1,850 points of Orks in their tracks, and the greenies rolled over him with ease. Think of your army like a giant ball in a pinball game. As you throw your entire army around the board, your opponent can either snipe at you and feed you elements of their army to try whittling you down, in which case the odds are stacked hugely in your favor, or they can pit their entire army against your entire army in a massive brawl; in which case the mechanized army you've outlined is pretty guaranteed to get the charge because of your ludicrous range (with the Waaaugh!, and doubly so with Ghazghkull if you try taking him).

You're on the right track for taking a KFF with a mechanized Ork list to shrug off 50% of those melta/lascannon/railgun shots. After that, remember that you're not building a unit-list, you're building an army; something that needs to be cohesive, redundant, and play to its own strengths. I doubt that there will ever come a day when I lose an assault with my Orks, if only for the fact that when I assault, I have an entire army to commit as much as needed to win it, and I rarely see someone else willing to commit the same resources towards deciding the outcome of a game in one turn.
----------------------------
That Tau player I told you about was the first round opponent the other day in a tournament. Here's how my three rounds went:

Round #1, Tau: My army spent two turns crossing the field get sniped at by half his army (other half in reserve). I mashed into his troops, Snikrot ambushed his commander and retinue from the rear table edge, and on turn 3+, I just killed whatever reserved he managed to bring onto the table.

Round #2, Deep-striking Dark Angels: Opponent won the toss, chose to go second (deep striking), capture and control. I rushed into the middle of the field turn 1, and then half his army deepstruck around my army; lots of terminators. He blew up a truck or two. Then my entire army turned and assaulted most of the half of his army that deepstruck, wiping out 4/5 of it. Turn 2, he gets all but a dreadnought (can't assault after deepstriking) so his terminators snipe at me some more. The whole of my army turns and eats them all, Ghazghkull gets out of his battlewagon, Waaaughs! and eats an entire terminator squad by himself. Turn3, the only remaining reserves of my opponent deepstrike (venerable dreadnought) and at this point, its 1500 points or so of my army versus a venerable dreadnought. Took me a turn to get to it, and then I killed it, its droppod, and tabled him.

Round 3, Mechanized Eldar: Dawn of War, Annihilation, opponent goes first. He sticks two wave serpents in a corner, Eldrad and reapers in another corner, and I deploy nothing. Round 1 his army comes on, star engines take him 36" across the table into my deployment zone. I trundle onto the field and proceed to do nothing. Turn2, he blows up a trukk, weapon destroys a battlewagon, snipes at me with war walkers in his zone, his wave serpents, reapers, scouts, everything. Snikrot comes on during my turn and eats Eldrad and his dark reapers. My whole army focuses on his war walkers and kills them. Turn3, he snipes at me some more, moves his falcons away from assault range. I've killed half his army; he split his deployment and I picked a side and went full throttle for it. I end up chasing down the rest of his army and punching his frikking star engines into the ground with powerklaws.

Tournament ends, I win.

That's the infinitely repeating cycle of my Ork play....so heed my advice - pick a theme and run with it completely.


*EDIT* And as a sidenote, I've taken to running a squad of 15 burna boyz in a battlewagon instead of those nobs. 15 templates sticking out the corner of a battlewagon can do a lot of damage, and they count as powerweapons in close combat. These guys are GREAT for taking down monstrous creatures, multi-assaulting terminators if you can do it, and the templates will carve vast swathes into IG, Orks, Nids, and MEQs.

Yes burnas in battlewagons totally kick asses

You seem a little light on anti tank gear (as orks offten do) you might want to refit one battle wagon with 4 rockit launchas and a zzap gun (your pretty much going to blow something up each turn. For the trukk defantly go sluggas. and burnas in an open topped vehicle is totaly devastating. Sounds good though, and fun. Good luck.

mercer wrote:Magickalmemories if a trukk has red paint job and moves 19" (flat out) then you will not get first turn charge as its moved more than 12". If you only move 13" I doubt you'll be in assault range on your first turn.

Yes. That is true.
But I don't think you're seeing it right.

In the equation above, you seem to be presuming that the Orks will go first.
Reverse it and presume the other army is going first. if it has any assault elements, they're likely to advance enough to make up the difference.

Then?

Turn 1 assault. >: )

Dropping both battlewagon armors and the 'ard case nets 35 more points, and I have enough for another trukk full of boyz. Grabbin Klaw is important because quick vehicles can outrun my wagon, I need to be able to catch them when they come close and hold them down, boarding plank is important because if I'm forced to jump out to explode a land raider, I can get counter-charged by the assault termis with TH/SS (or burned/shot to death by his entire army).

Snikrot is vital, even if he does nothing the whole game but scare people away from the board edge, that's a good thing, that means they are closer to the center where I can get at them easier. While they do only have a 6+ save, that's exactly the same as regular ork boyz, only they cost just 4 more points. I pay 4 points extra per kommando for stikkbombs, scouts, infiltrate, and move through cover. Their effect is more psychological as well as "Say goodbye to your oblits!"

Well, I mean, it's your army. Play it the way you want, of course.
The low # of times you will get to utilize the GK or boarding planks (IMO) doesn't make them worth the points. Any player worth his salt will just stay away from you.

As for Snikrot... when my group sees Snikky, we tend to giggle more than worry. Don't get me wrong... Snikkrot is a GREAT character. It's the Kommandos that blow chunks.
You say they're only 4 points more each...
Do the math, though...
You've got 255 points sunk into the Kommandos

That's 42.5 boyz
If you're playing against Orks, would you worry more about Snikrot & 14 kommandos (with 2 burnas) who can choose where they come on and MIGHT cause you problems when they do or 42 boys storming across the field at you, ready to eat anything in their path?

It's almost enough for 20 boys in a Battlewagon, the way you have them kitted out. Probably IS enough, if you lose some of the extras.

I'd rather face Snikkrot.
Look. Here's their extras...
stikkbombs They still have a crappy Initiative. Assaulting any unit except Oblits and Death Guard means you attack last... still...
(there might be more units.... but not many... that's all i thought of off of the top of my head)
scouts So you can be 18" away from me if you deploy?
infiltrate and move through cover --The only abilities worth mentioning, but still won't do too much on the majority of games against skilled opponents.


All that being said, I should state, fairly, that I *DO* own a Snikkrot model that I bought, display quality painted, on feebay. I like him very much and, on occasional "friendly" games, I DO break out him and some Kommandos.
So, I'm not saying don't play him. I'm saying not to expect much.

The most important thing is to have fun. If you like the havoc Snikky creates before dying, then have a blast with him. That's the most important thing because, if you're no having fun, you're doing something wrong. : )

Eric

Go for armour plates for the wagons. Your anti-armour are you PKs. I run only PK AA in games like 1500 points all the time and i dont have a problem.

MagickalMemories wrote:

mercer wrote:Magickalmemories if a trukk has red paint job and moves 19" (flat out) then you will not get first turn charge as its moved more than 12". If you only move 13" I doubt you'll be in assault range on your first turn.

Yes. That is true.
But I don't think you're seeing it right.

In the equation above, you seem to be presuming that the Orks will go first.
Reverse it and presume the other army is going first. if it has any assault elements, they're likely to advance enough to make up the difference.

Then?

Turn 1 assault. >: )


Eric

I think your still pushing it on turn 1 assault. You've got 19" assault range with the trukks moving 13" and then 6" assault move, which is all gravy. Now I play on a 48" width board, and I start 12" in. But my opponent might only move 6" or 12" and always starts at the table edge, so would be short. That also presuming your opponent moves the full distance

I think perhaps on a smaller board you could do, but its got to be a lot smaller. I think turn 1 assault is really pushing it, unless got other transports which move 18" or 24" i.e bikes and skimmers.

I think your still pushing it on turn 1 assault. You've got 19" assault range with the trukks moving 13" and then 6" assault move, which is all gravy. Now I play on a 48" width board, and I start 12" in. But my opponent might only move 6" or 12" and always starts at the table edge, so would be short. That also presuming your opponent moves the full distance

I think perhaps on a smaller board you could do, but its got to be a lot smaller. I think turn 1 assault is really pushing it, unless got other transports which move 18" or 24" i.e bikes and skimmers.

Oh, well, I'm not going to argue the point with you. You are definitely correct. Thing is, though... you WILL get 1st turn assaults on SOME of the games that you play. I'm guesstimating close to HALF of the games where you (as Orks) go second.

Don't forget deployment in calculating your distance.
You have 13" Move, 2.9" deployment, then 6" charge (assuming no terrain).
That's almost 22"

--For the record, I'm saying 2.9" deployment but YMMV. Since all you have to have is the very TIP of the base within 2", and the base is about 1" in diameter, you're at almost 3" there.
It really adds up.

(BTW, the boards I play on are all 4' x 6', too)

Now. presume you are playing a quadrants deployment, or a game where you have to be 18" away from your opponent. Many (maybe most?) opponents are going to deploy in such a manner as to keep you as far from them as possible. Different armies have different tactics.
IG & Eldar are probably going to crowd the rear table edge and play the waiting game. Granted.
MEQ, though, and other assault oriented armies are going to come straight at you with PART of their force most of the time.


Again, I'm not saying that it always happens but, in my experience, you have to plan for as many eventualities as possible. Every extra inch of movement you can give your Boyz is important, considering that you NEED to get them into HtH ASAP.

Eric

I'll agree to disagree. While I've never had first turn assault (perhaps because who I play against) I don't think its not possible.

Though I always go first when playing orks, need to get them into the fight a.s.a.p . Though I did forget about 2" disembark, so your more looking at 21" assault range.

btw - hows those scouts coming on I traded you sometime ago? You repainted them yet?

You RPJ helps so much in dawn of war where you deploy 18"+ away from your opponent. You get 13" move + 2,9" disembark (only park of the base has to be in 2") + 6" charge thats 21,9" of assault range.


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Second this is that you are really cool having your vehicles red