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So, I was just wondering if everyone felt the same way I do about space wolves. I am a space marine player myself and when I look at the other forces of the impurium codex's Im always pleased to see there neat little tricks but normaly I am happy to see that they didnt make normal space marines obsolete. Space Wolves upsets me a little about this. They same better then your standard space marine army in almost every way but thats me. Anyone eles?

In response to the title of this thread: No. Space Wolves ARE Space Marines...

As far as the negligible differences between chapters go, I think Space Wolves make up for their power by costing a lot more points, leading to smaller armies, making their losses more devastating.

I definitely disagree. The Space Marine army is still solid, you just need to focus on the things that other MEQs can't do.

Space Wolves are just different from Space Marines. Not better, or stronger overall. Space Wolves are an in-your-face close quarters firefighting army with strong close combat potential, but not quite on par with the more specialist CC SM armies, like BT.

I think the main reason for their perceived improvement over normal SMs is most people play SMs like they would an assault army, when their strengths lie in shooting. So when they see Space Wolves with all their special CC rules, they feel they been ripped off by GW for it. Or something like that.

Sounds like somebody's stable geneseed is a little bit.. jealous?

Vanilla marines are obviously a different beast to SW's, I'd been playing my wolves as regular marines for a while until the latest wolf codex release and there are certainly things I miss about it. Heavy weapons in regular marine squads? God damn, you guys are blessed!

/shrug.
It depends what you are looking for.

If you want character spam, SW>SM.
If you want bikers as troops, SM>SW.
If you want Puppies, SW>SM.
If you want Vanilla/Smurfs, SM>SW.

Stuff like that.

The main difference between the two is that SW have amazing troops where as SMs have an extremely subpar selection

Other than that they're fairly similar

Lysander can rock Logan's world.

SM > SW


G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lysander can rock Logan's world.

C:SM is better at shooting than C:SW? LOLWUT? Try telling ML longfang packs that. Essentially, all C:SW lose is the fringe stuff like TF cannons, ironclads, stern, vanguard, etc. Stuff that only realistically sees play in a specialized form (IE Pedro+Stern). Ignoring special characters, SWs do the SM schtick better. Their "tacs" are optimized for mid/short engagement. Losing the HW is compensated by superior midrange, CC, and movement (2 assault weapons is much more mobile than 1 assault and a heavy). And they are cheaper. SW long range engagement is just as good or better than SM (long fangs > devs). About the only thing SMs can do better is SS/TH spam and bikes (bike captain is hawt).

Special characters change it up. SMs have some very good SCs. Pedro, Vulkan, and Shrike all make the SMs much better and on par w/SWs since they play up things SWs can't really do. SW chars don't change them nearly so much.

So, IMHO SWs>SMs w/out special chars/bike captain but equivalent when you look at the who book.

Though I love the UM look, I have switched over to playing my SWs and just count them as codex when I want to use that book. Counting UMs as SWs doesn't really work since there is no equivalent for Fenrisian wolves , wolf riders, etc. But GHs make fine tacs, WG great Sternguard, etc.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Lysander can rock Logan's world.

SM > SW


G

Riiight but in the Logan list I run he ran through tanks, vets, sg, dreadnaughts, and anything in the SM codex.. Bring my wolves a challenge and they shall be destroyed. Later this week the Great Wolve's challenge iis the GK and their grandmaster.

Hell even GH chewed through anything the SM had SM are good generalists and somewhat more consistant with shooting, but cc we reign supreme and can compete at shooting.

why is it that when every codex comes out there's always someone out there shouting from the rooftops that its the greatest codex ever?

SM v SW is a very, very close matchup, and normally goes to whoever the better general is.

Horst wrote:why is it that when every codex comes out there's always someone out there shouting from the rooftops that its the greatest codex ever?

SM v SW is a very, very close matchup, and normally goes to whoever the better general is.

There is that for every codex not just new. Besides you should state also that the haters are the ones saying new means the best. Don't be bitter now.

haters aren't saying its the best.

they are saying it shouldn't ever have been released, and the person who wrote it should be shot, so as to never allow such a thing to come to pass.

coincidentally, thats what I say about the eldar codex too.

I'll agree that space wolves troop choices tend to be more appealing then regular space marine troop choices. However, by restricting transport size you prevent either the second special weapon or end up having leadership 8.

Wolf guard are wonderful, but to have a fully kitted TH/SS terminator costs more then regular space marines (And no Vulkan to master crafting)

Long fangs are freaking AWESOME, but you have no throw away troops in the unit, every wound taken means one less heavy weapon.

The introduction of thunderwolves means that Strength 10 weapons might see more play. Instead of Thunderfires & dakka preds I'll be running vindicators in my Heavy support slots. All I need is one or two failed cover saves after a hit to cause a leadership check.

Shutting down psychic powers is a huge bonus for SW's. However, every ruin priest is still a two wound model that can be insta killed. JotWW may wreak havok on Nids, but is next to useless against a heavy mech force.

I guess I've just not bought into Space wolves being so much better then some space marine builds.

Think of it this way: A space marine is an Orc Boy (this is WHFB) and a space wolf is a savage orc. While the savage orc is better in combat its not as brave or as honourable (if orcs can be honourable) to the warboss (or the Emperor in this case). SWs are a drunk, mess-around varient which obviously puts them below SM in the Empopors eyes.

Whats more the SM are the originals the ones that go way back. Viva la old school!!

Vulkan Marines can reroll a lot of stuff!

G

and then get charged and die with their 1 attack.. My problem with vulkan marines is that they can still only kill the same # of models as SW but just have a higher percentage of doing so
1 flamer that hits 6 guys can still only kill 6 guys regardless of rerolls

yet a SW unit with 3x the attack when charged could kill 3x the amount of models.. SW are almost on par with SM in shooting yet utterly crush them in close combat.. Common conception is that 5th ed is all about assault so I think I rather be 3x better in CC after I rapid fire

From a blood angel perspective.. if I had vulkan over Dante my army would be garbage because CC power is so much more potent

If anything in a Vulkan list besides Vulkan & assault terminators are in close combat YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. (Kidding..... Kind of......)

Kirasu wrote:and then get charged and die with their 1 attack.. My problem with vulkan marines is that they can still only kill the same # of models as SW but just have a higher percentage of doing so
1 flamer that hits 6 guys can still only kill 6 guys regardless of rerolls

This is meaningless. 1 flamer almost never kills 6 guys, rerolls or no rerolls. The number of guys you "can" kill is not actually very important, torrents aside; otherwise, Leman Russ Punishers would be highly feared. After all, they can kill 20 guys with their main gun alone! It's the number of guys that you *do* kill that's important, which is why Vulkan rerolls can be so useful. Flamers and meltas are, in some armies, the weapons that do the most killing, and improving the chance that these work is very efficient.

It is very important because vulkan armies have a higher potential to kill the same maximum # of models where as Wolves have a higher potential to kill a potentially HIGHER # of models

A rather large difference and I rather have the ability to have a higher cap in how much damage I can inflict

In a dice game a higher threshold is very useful

The difference between a vulkan marine unit with 2 flamers and a wolf unit with 2 flamers is about .80 more dead marines for vulkan.. (5.48 to 4.64) which is about 84% of the damage

Whereas a SW unit that gets charged does around 300% of the damage and 200% if charging..

2 meltas with vulkan gives you 1.76 hits and with wolves 1.32.. Thats more significant to be sure but wolves still get 1 reliable hit which is usually good enough to do something with a melta. Also that is ONLY with vulkan where as ALL grey hunters are that good

I would put my money on SM seriously.

G

Kirasu wrote:SW are almost on par with SM in shooting yet utterly crush them in close combat..

SW aren't nearly on par with SM in shooting. They lack Combat Squads (which is a huge advantage in shooting in non-KP missions, as it allows Tactical squads to split fire, move their assault weapon separately from their heavy weapon, and require the destruction of two units to remove all shooting power), and while they have similar total weapon upgrade density to SM, SW get a lot less heavy weapons. They also lack Combat Tactics, which blunts both the effectiveness of enemy shooting and assault, or is (theoretically, at least) replaced by an ability even more useful to the army.

Sure, Long Fangs are good compared to Devastators, but Devs aren't a particularly strong HS choice in the marine codex anyway.

And, then, their effectiveness in assault is overplayed. When it gets down to it at the troops level, if you're a shooty army, you want to lose assault quickly. Against many of the targets that GH would be assaulting, their superiority amounts to little on the actual tabletop -- they're going to die horribly to serious assault troops, and most of the things they're going to decisively kill you don't necessarily want to kill *that* decisively (as it's far better to win assault in your opponent's turn than your turn).

And then the SM Assault Terminators are on par with the SW serious assault troops.

Now, I played SW seriously in 4e, and used GH to good effect bullying around Tacticals. While GH have gotten significantly better in 5e, Tacticals have gotten *far* better in 5e.

Common conception is that 5th ed is all about assault so I think I rather be 3x better in CC after I rapid fire

*shrug* I used to run heavy assault in 4e. To my mind (and to a lot of other folks), 5e is much more about shooting -- assault is, even if more decisive, vastly less safe than it was in 4e with the combination of the removal of consolidating into new assaults and the tendency of assaults to be concluded much faster than they used to.

I'm sorry but I've played against Vulkan lists with sw, csm, and eldar and I gotta say not much to write home about. This weekend my buddy ran his vulkan list vs my sw and it was a massacre. It was a 2000 pt game and he had no answer for the wg, logan, arjac, or gh. The math hammer didn't help vulkan from being munched by arjac. It's simple unless you are one of the guys who can keep Vulkan away as some poster earlier said that if he was in combat you messed up, have something like calgar, termies etc.. stay out of cc with the wolves. SM and SW are two different beasts and both have good codexes. When these two throw down it's down to the generals, terrain and game type to decide who's better that day. SM though do possess more utility.

Space Marines are more flexible, whereas Space Wolves are less so - they pretty much *have* to get into assault.

Vulkan Marines must eschew cc with SW until end game FTW IMO.

G

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Space Marines are more flexible, whereas Space Wolves are less so - they pretty much *have* to get into assault.

No. Space wolves are very good at shooting. The only option they have that is less shooty than codex marines is tacs v. GHs and only b/c the tacs can pack a heavy weapon. My current SW list is very shooty- moreso than my SM list was b/c the cheaper GHs let me squeeze more in there. I shocked a Chaos player with how much shooting I could whip out. His plague marines folded to massed LF missile fire while the razorback and other LF squads rained lascannon shots to shred oblits. GHs dropping melta shots on the move everywhere didn't help him one bit.

And the SWs had the choppy to back it up. Without requiring the points investment in a special character, which is huge since we generally play at 1500.

On Long Fangs- if you equip them all the same, the sarge and an attached naked WG become their ablative wounds. 7 man squad, 5 MLs is still dirt cheap for the firepower. Spread out in cover they are hugely destructive and hard to move.

I am not convinced that splitting squads is a significant advantage since 1) it means the hvy weapon is easier to fry and 2) the other team is pretty useless. Swolves can also take 5 man GH squads w/melta, Wulfen, and a pfist/psword that can actually do something (such as attaching a WG w/combimelta and dropping near vehcles). Still, such small squads tend to disappear quickly.

Basically, it boils down to special characters, assault terminators v. Twolves, and Chapter Tactics/Splitting v. BP/CCW, cheaper points pricing, and Counter Attack. I think the they come pretty close on the whole, but the SWs seem to fit my playstyle much better.

I dunno Space wolves seems like a drop or foot list.. and I still think mech is better. Long fangs seem great until they get shot.

When the vehicle damage chart gets pwned by the balance pendulum then I think space wolves will be better, but when that happens marine will lolwut get another codex..

You really cant go wrong with marines play them to their strengths and watch as they are always updated every edition..

If you like hero hammer however you'll be sad not playing space wolves..

I don't know why you'd say SW are worse at mech. Gray Hunters are just better coming out of Razorbacks.

Shaman wrote:I dunno Space wolves seems like a drop or foot list.. and I still think mech is better. Long fangs seem great until they get shot.

When the vehicle damage chart gets pwned by the balance pendulum then I think space wolves will be better, but when that happens marine will lolwut get another codex..

You really cant go wrong with marines play them to their strengths and watch as they are always updated every edition..

If you like hero hammer however you'll be sad not playing space wolves..

I'm curious how a cc army benefits more from drop pods than rhinos?