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Sanctjud wrote:/shrug.
It depends what you are looking for.

If you want character spam, SW>SM.
If you want bikers as troops, SM>SW.
If you want Puppies, SW>SM.
If you want Vanilla/Smurfs, SM>SW.

Stuff like that.

Can I ask a stupid question...umm What do you people mean by..Vanilla and fluff?

Vasarto wrote:Can I ask a stupid question...umm What do you people mean by..Vanilla and fluff?

I guess 'vanilla' means plain old everyday marines with no prescribed chapter affiliation.
If you ask me, this entire thread is all about comparing apples to apples.

Archonate wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Can I ask a stupid question...umm What do you people mean by..Vanilla and fluff?

I guess 'vanilla' means plain old everyday marines with no prescribed chapter affiliation.
If you ask me, this entire thread is all about comparing apples to apples.

Not to get on a , but it would be like saying Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same thing/apples-to-apples. Different Codeci = different rules = different playstyle. Pups are MEQ's, true, but so are 'Crons and no one calls them marines.

Gavin Thorne wrote:

Archonate wrote:

Vasarto wrote:Can I ask a stupid question...umm What do you people mean by..Vanilla and fluff?

I guess 'vanilla' means plain old everyday marines with no prescribed chapter affiliation.
If you ask me, this entire thread is all about comparing apples to apples.

Not to get on a , but it would be like saying Eldar and Dark Eldar are the same thing/apples-to-apples. Different Codeci = different rules = different playstyle. Pups are MEQ's, true, but so are 'Crons and no one calls them marines.

Maybe... Since I'm not a SM player I have nothing to base my opinion on except my experience in playing against them. When I fight SMs, whether they are SWs, DA, or CSMs, my tactics don't vary in the least. I use the same old strategy against all of the above and it's equally effective in the same ways and for the same reasons, and I'll always win (except in those rare cases of consistently atrocious die-rolling.) When I fight Necrons, my tactics vary considerably. Fighting them is nothing like fighting SMs. Likewise, the tactics I employ vs. Eldar in no way resemble my tactics versus Dark Eldar.

SMs in general just don't feel different from one another from my perspective. But that might just be a difference in the application of my army's strengths, rather than an indication of similarity in enemy playstyles...

Just because your tactics don't vary doesn't mean they are the same thing.

The medium of damage varies between both of those MEQ armies... and affects you differently, hence are apples to oranges.

There is a huge difference in how I use my CSM, SM, MEQ Eldar, and how I envision a SW list working.

The most simple way of viewing it is that each army has unique options that the others don't/can't have, and so can't be apples to apples.

Stuff SM get that SW do not get, a brief list -some of this is objectively better, some is just different

heavy weapon in tacs

combat squads - which is a HUGELY beneficial ability

combat tactics

sarge's in squads don't use up an elite slot

bikes as troops potential

scouts as troops

attack bikes as a separate unit

attack bikes and bikes with a bs and ws of 4

assault marines which may combat squad and have ws/bs4

sternguard - which are awesome

vanguard - which are much less so

th/ss termies at 42pts, not 60pts

iron halos on all chapter masters for free (and captains too iirc)

the SM psychic power list including some very nice ones such as null zone and gate

scout bikers

landspeeder storms

ironclads - which are fantastic

thunderfire cannons

drop pods with 12 man capacity

land raiders with 12 man capacity

devvys which may take ablative wounds and may combat squad

honour guard

command squads - with apothecaries granting fnp (no fnp at all in the wolf dex)

Masters of the Forge complete with conversion beamers

the bolster defences rule

digital weapons

relic blades

Vulkan
Pedro Cantor
Marneus Calgar
Cassius
Tigerius
Tellion
Chronus
Lysander
Shrike
Khan
and all the attendant benefits they give to the entire army often


If you look at that long list and see nothing in there you use in your list, that you feel is particularly good or that excites you then you are playing the wrong army and should start space wolves.

Space Wolves have access to a lot of characters, many of which they can field in the same army. They also have unique units. Sure a Marine is just another Marine but Space Wolves were designed for close combat and that is where they excel. Vanilla Marines don't in general have access to as many assault units so that in and of itself is a huge difference between the two.

G

I ain't going to lie... I played my first game against Wolves today and the amount of shooting they could put out is crazy. If you can weather/suppress the long-fangs (which I was not able to do), you are rewarded with a bunch of pissed off Grey Hunters to the face. And if you're planning on using psychic powers, just forgetaboutit. Don't get me wrong, I think vanilla SM has a lot of strengths, but I think shooty marines with counter assault is simply done better by the Puppies.

Space Wolves have better troops, better psykers, a better hammer unit in TWC, and don't cost more points. Codex creep at it's finest. Just like 2nd edition, space wolves are better than marines in every way for the same price.