A couple Dark Eldar Tactics questions

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**asugradinwa**

Hey all,

After a year of gaming with my Salamanders I'm brining a new Dark Eldar Army to the tabletop in the near future. I'm pretty set on the "air force" type builds with Raiders & ravagers, however, I've been unable to decide if "air force" wych cult or an "air force" Kabol is better at 2000 points

1st question: At 2000 points how many dark lances should you have in your army? My wych cult build currently only has 14, but also contains 14 blasters. Each of my three Ravagers is equiped with two Disnetigrators and a Dark Lance. The Kabol I'm running is looking to have between 16-18 Dark Lances, but on 4-6 Blasters. I could change one Ravager to have 3 dark lances, but this build would lose effectiveness vs hordes, and only boost my lance output by two.

2nd Question: For those who run wych cults, would you rather have all of your wyches be 5 man squads with a succubus w/ agonizer in a raider or have larger squads of 7-8 but only 4 instead of 6 squads. At 2000 points I'm thinking that I want all the power weapons that I can get so my initial army list has 6 squads of 5 wyches in Raiders, plus Lelith with her elite wyches in a raider. All but one squad would have a succubus with agnozer meaning I'll have 7 agonizers in the army.

3rd Question: At 2000 points would you rather have a wych cult or Kabal & why?

**Thor665**

asugradinwa wrote:1st question: At 2000 points how many dark lances should you have in your army? My wych cult build currently only has 14, but also contains 14 blasters. Each of my three Ravagers is equiped with two Disnetigrators and a Dark Lance. The Kabol I'm running is looking to have between 16-18 Dark Lances, but on 4-6 Blasters. I could change one Ravager to have 3 dark lances, but this build would lose effectiveness vs hordes, and only boost my lance output by two.

You can never have too many lances!

But to be serious - there is no real hard and fast rule for how many lances/blasters you should have. Looking over some fairly common lists for me at 1850 I apparently run around 10 blasters and 10-14 Lances. With the current mech metagame it's certainly not a bad idea to have a lot of lances - but in many ways it's how you're using them, where, and with what support that can make a big difference. You're probably in the right ballpark. In Kabal it is generally a smart idea to keep your Ravagers kitted out with dissies - as you will need them to blunt footsloggin' hordes. Usually most Wych Cult builds I see use at least one Ravager as a Dark Lance platform since Wyches tend to be better at anti-infantry and usually lack the ability to spam lances as well. Blasters are great - but they are short range and are often on Wyches who will often have to debate between shooting at armor or assaulting infantry. (and it's rough to have to hop out of your Raider to shoot a Rhino so you can charge the unit inside after you destroy the vehicle...and then fail to destroy the vehicle so your Wyches are left standing there in their g-strings trying to act like they have a 3+ armor save.)

2nd Question: For those who run wych cults, would you rather have all of your wyches be 5 man squads with a succubus w/ agonizer in a raider or have larger squads of 7-8 but only 4 instead of 6 squads. At 2000 points I'm thinking that I want all the power weapons that I can get so my initial army list has 6 squads of 5 wyches in Raiders, plus Lelith with her elite wyches in a raider. All but one squad would have a succubus with agnozer meaning I'll have 7 agonizers in the army.

I don't play cult but I do advocate smaller Wych squads. After all, they are primarily tarpit units or delivery systems for the Agoniser, so it's good to maximize that impact. With squads that small just make sure to support them properlly before they charge into an enemy unit (pair them up for an assault or shoot the living beejezus out of the enemy squad first)

3rd Question: At 2000 points would you rather have a wych cult or Kabal & why?

As i mentioned; I don't play Wych Cult. I feel with the new rules in 5th preventing sweeping into new units for consolidation they have been quite weakened from what they were. They're still great, but are more likely to accidentally wipe out a unit and get shot to death by small arms fire. Also, for objectives I feel Wyches suffer - they are assault oriented and want to be up at the front hurting the enemy. It's easy for Kabal to have a squad of Warriors with Lances sitting back to hold objectives - not so much for Wyches. I prefer paying for Wyches that get to attack constantly, and not have to sweat getting some of them to objectives.

(and I expect later for Cthomps to come in and tell you to take some Warp Beasts)

**dumplingman**

I agree with what most of thor said he's right on the money especially with the amount of lances you shoould bring, more is better. I play both types armies.

1) In a wych list one of your Ravagers should be a lance platform since you can't spam lances the same way kabals do.

2) As for squad composition I usually just run minimum squads with agonizers, it is very effective. Like thor said they are just a delivery system for the power weapon. Also something that I found works out pretty well for me is instead of using blasters on all wych squads is to use shedders instead. 5th edition blast rules make it an effective way to weaken enemy units before the charge. STR 6 means that you are going to cause wounds and saves will be failed eventually.

3) Since lelith and her retinue get to choose their drugs, always always take 12" charge. Herretinue also better have an agonizer in it. This choice gives them the largest charge in the game fora unit that can clean up up most things in a single turn. 12" raider move 2" disembark D6 Fleet and finally 12" assault. This mobility is am amazing tactical asset as no objective is safe.

4) Warp beasts are worthless. Taking just an easy way to give up a kill point. Unless you are running a webway assault list.

**jsullivanlaw**

I would say that 8 wyches is the optimal number in a squad. If you take less you will find that you don't have the hitting power or staying power to deal with tough enemy units. I was running 7 and against ten man squads i wasn't quite doing enough to win combats. 8 gives more survivability and hitting power but still probably won't wipe out the enemy leaving you in the open. More than 8 is a waste, if you need more than 8 wyches then you should be multi assaulting.

Wych cult is extremely fun to play and has the advantage of having a ton of scoring units. People will tell you that wyches are horrible for holding objectives but they don't really need to. You will be fast enough to get to objectives on turn 5+ and definitely don't need to sit around holding them. You will run into problems against certain types of armies. Horde infantry is pretty rough, especially 50 man IG squads. Wych cult is great if you play against elite armies. Kabal is better for horde armies. 10+ dark lances is all you need. The real purpose of the dark lance is to just shake all the enemy vehicles to help preserve skimmers.

**Newt-Of-Death**

Everything said so far is true, but I dont understand the obsession with Lances.

Yes its good to have a good lot of them, but its not a case of 'how many can I get in this number of points and how many can I get here'. Technically, you can get 38 Lances in a 2000pt army with 100 to spend on your archon. That would be interesting but really really not fun at all.

Theres so much more to Dark Eldar, like the Talos which is amazing, and mandrakes, which are good against light armies and give you a crucial edge in tactical choice.

But yes, of course and most definately take webway portals, nearly every time, and stick both talos and warp beast through those only. The talos sting you may aswell forget about.

I take agonisers all over the place, but for my warrior squads that have darklances, I only take a basic sybarite.

8 is a good number for whyches, as it is mainly about the succubus with her agoniser, but you also need a unit of more than 5 to get them there. I would have more raiders if I could but they're best spent on the whyches and HQ, (incubi are amazing)

Definately a kabal as opposed to a cult. Cults are more fun for <1000 point games.

heres my army list

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/User:Newt-Of-Death

**Grimaldi**

I can't really agree with much of what Newt says. Mandrakes are only decent against light enemy troops and worthless against everybody else, so they aren't really worth taking. The Talos, while interesting, is pretty slow and not particularly dangerous...think weak wraithlord. Running a webway portal, with the increase in firepower the last few codex have received, is also a risky proposition.

Unfortunately, the DE army only has a handful of useful units. Get lots of raiders and ravagers. Play with warriors, wyches, haemonculi with destructors and incubi in various amounts. Your local metagame will determine what mix works best, along with deciding what balance of disintergrators/dark lances/splinter cannons work best.

As awesome as disintegrators are, I'm finding dark lances aren't good enough at busting armor unless taken in huge amounts, so I'm steadily increasing the amount of them I take. My 1750 list looks like this

1 Dracon with agonizer, pistol, 5 incubi, 3 warriors with 2 DL
1 raider with DL

1 Dracon with agonizer, pistol, 4 incubi, 3 warriors with 2 DL
1 raider with DL

5 wyches with 2 blasters
raider with DL

5 wyches with 2 blasters
raider with DL

6 x 5 warriors with DL in raider with DL

3 x ravager with 3 DL

Pretty simple, obviously. Sit back and fire to full effect for a turn or two, then move in to clean up the survivors. If needed, I can advance the HQs behind the wyches to take out serious threats.

Seems like a lot of DLs (29) but when you do the math, that's only about 2 dead vehicles (AV12+) in a whole round of shooting. Your vehicles drop much more quickly, so it's a delicate balance.

**Newt-Of-Death**

Thats very strange.

Minimum squad number for warriors it 10 for a start.

You also stuck a long range heavy weapon with your Hq (why the agonisers and incubi if your taking DL's).

Your not even taking wych weapons, or a succubus.

And the talos, in-case you dont know, is capable of strength 13 attacks against vehicles in CC, or maiming 7 space marines with no saves in CC.

So I think we both have polar opposite tactics.

Maybe we should game some time!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also

and mandrakes, which are good against light armies

See, theyre happy and they want to be included in the fun!

If you against orks or guard, or anyone who you want to stall, but couldnt normally get close to, can be taken by surprise and as convenient by the mandrakes. I put one left, one centre, and one right, then on turn 3 I have 30 (strength 3 all be them) attacks, initiative 5, count as being in cover, (5+ inv save), waiting to come into play and take the sting off the enemy 'Left, Right or Centre'.

(Excuse the pun)

**orchewer**

Raider squads are minimum 5 warriors.

To the OP, I'd go Kabal army. At the end of the day, Wyches are only swinging at S3 and have no power weapons except for the squad leaders and a 5+ armour save. Not exactly the best assault unit out there.

**Grimaldi**

I agree with orchewer on wyches...unless they've got a hardcore HQ character running around with them, they just don't pack enough punch. They may win there first round of combat, but they'll get whittled down little by little and eventually lose. And, with a 6+ armor save, even if they win combat, they're easy meat in the middle of the enemy lines (or if their raider blows up). That's why I bring them super cheap, setup to help knock out armor and maybe finish off weaker squads of GEQs.

As Newt notes, my HQ is a bit weird. DE HQs are really geared towards melee, but I think the army list overall is better served running and gunning. I mentioned earlier that DLs need to be spammed heavily to reliably tackle lots of armor, and HQs can take two each, so...grab a total of 4 more to help with the early phases against mech lists, then move forward to finish stuff off (or countercharge nasties that get too close).

**Clthomps**

(and I expect later for Cthomps to come in and tell you to take some Warp Beasts)

Hey listen to Thor, on all matters DE except the viability of warpbeasts.

Here is the mathammer yet again (you should really add this to the DE tactica so I can stop posting it):

A warpbeast squad charging a:

5 man Tactical squad:

Round 1:

Initative 6:
Beastmaster: 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1 Dead SM

Initative 5:
Beasts: 20 attacks , 10 hit, 5 Armor s=Saves, 1.65 Dead SM

Initative 4:
SM: 4 attacks, 2 hit, 1.33 Armor Saves, 1.11 Dead warpbeasts

End of round Warpbeast 2.65 , SM 1.11

Huzzah we continue combat and don't get shot to pieces!

Round 2:

Initative 6:
Beastmaster: 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 Dead SM

Initative 5:
Beasts: 12 attacks, 6 hit, 3 armor saves, 1 Dead SM

Initative 4:
SM: 2 attacks, 1 Hit, .66 armor saves, .55 Dead warpbeast

Warpbeasts win again.

Total results after two rounds :

Warpbeast: 4.4 Dead space marines

Space marines: 1.66 Dead warp beasts

Now against a 10 man Non MEQ unit (guard, eldar, tau, etc.)

Round 1:

Initative 6:
Beastmaster: 4 attacks, 2.64 hit, 1.32 Dead non-meq

Initative 5:
Beasts: 20 attacks, 13.6 hit, 9.11 armor saves, 6 Dead Non-meq

Initative 4 or lower:
Non-Meq, 3 attacks, 1.5 hit, .75 armor saves, .62 dead warpbeast.

Warpbeasts 7 Non-MEQ 1 Take a leadership test at -6

Now against rear armor 10:

Stationary:
24 attacks, 4.08 Glancing hits

Moved a bit:
24 attacks, 2.04Glancing hits

Moved a lot:
24 attacks, .69 Glancing hits

To summarize, what other unit in the game can give you 4 powerweapon attacks (at posion 4+) and 20 Str 4 WS 4 I5 attacks, all with a 12" charge, and still only cost 75 points? Look at it this way. Would you pay 3 points for an extra str4 attack, and if you act now and buy 5 you get to turn one into a poisoned power weapon attack for free! Of course you would take that deal, in fact you would be maxing it out every chance you got.

Ok now to stop beating that poor horse.

**Thor665**

Clthomps wrote:you should really add this to the DE tactica so I can stop posting it

I'm not unwilling in that regard - type me up a brief paragraph on how best to use them (how to move them up, get cover, what types of units to charge, whatever - and I'll add that to the mathhammer and put it in post haste.

Heck, I may even promise to try to field them again...in some friendly games.

**Newt-Of-Death**

Raider squads are in fact 5-10, right you are!

Never noticed that before.

Dark Eldar are one of those armys where you can use many different approaches, but at the end of the day, it all depends on how you play, who your playing, and what youve got.

So there we go. lol

**jsullivanlaw**

Don't discount the wyches 4++ in CC. As far as packing a punch, you may need to assault with two 8 man units to take down large squads. Also, don't discount the drugs. The random drugs really change what a wych squad can do. If you roll the +1 WS, anything WS 4 will need 5's to hit you. +1 STR and A are self explanatory while the 12 inch charge can let you hit an unsuspecting unit. All the options are great except for always strike first so odds are you got something good. Wyches can go toe to toe with anything. The only unit i have found they can't handle even with a multi assault is the 50 man blob squad of imperial guard.

A couple wych lords with punishers and tormentor helms can drastically increase their killing power, though that could lead you to get caught in the open. You want to whiddle down the enemy and kill them on their assault phase in order to avoid enemy shooting.

Warpbeasts are cheap but they don't get grenades so a lot of time your enemy will be smart enough to hug cover and the warpbeasts are pretty fragile. I don't use em.

Mandrakes are absolutely useless and a huge waste of points. They cost as much as a marine and fight like a guardsman. Even their deployment sucks when you come down to it. The blips can't run and you have to reveal them by turn 3, so while you can get basically 30 inches onto the table you can't just go anywhere.

**asugradinwa**

Thanks guys!

So a little update: I've got about 40 wyches and 10 warriors partially painted and getting based on Sunday. I have enough models to eventually make about 60 wyches and 40 warriors. I've got 9 raiders assembled as well as 3 ravagers, and will magnitize the bases as well.

We have a weekly leauge that plays at 1500 points right now, so for the next 9 weeks I'll be trying out different combinations to get a feel for the dark little guys.

I'll pick up some warp beasts (well chaos hounds) as they do seem to be an interesting unit at 75 points, if the DE codex ever gets updated and warpbeasts gain Scout & can outflank they'd be really competive.

My ulitmate goal is to be able to bring them to the indy GT ConquestNW in January and have a good showing. If I don't get enough practice in I'll just bring the Salamanders.

Out of curiousity what do you throw at 30 man ork boy squads as a DE player?

**Thor665**

asugradinwa wrote:Out of curiousity what do you throw at 30 man ork boy squads as a DE player?

Disintegrators and Gunboats mostly. 30 man Ork squads are so slow I usually just keep flying away from them and shooting them when I need to or feel the urge. Also, after you've dropped their numbers down an Incubi or Wych squad can actually gut them pretty effectively in a straight up brawl. Generally versus Orks your goal is to pop their transports with Dark lances and blow apart any Lootas they have on the field. After that you'll be able to play a very comfortable shooting game from within your Raiders as you dance around the periphery of their dwindling blobs of green.

**lixulana**

yes the tactic for 30 man orc blob, shoot them from the raider while moving.

**asugradinwa**

Might have to invest in a super gunboat squad or two.

**orchewer**

Haemonculus with Destructors and Poisoned Blades.

**kuro_khan**

I 3rd the gunboat. 15 S3/AP5, 4 S4/AP5, 1 S8/AP2 shots from a moving gunboat will shred orks. That's over 5 dead orks.

**GCMandrake**

Hordes are always tricky for the dark eldar, we have nothing explicitly to take them down with really. Sacrificial units work well, park raiders in their way so they have to attack and destroy it, or spend time going around it. Anything to hold them up. Or, if you're all mounted, just run away and keep peppering them with shots. Orks die easily, it's just the quantity you need to take out that's the problem. Also, don't discount torture amps on sacrificial raiders to tank shock orks closer together, so you can shred/disintegrate them better. I mount my Wyches on raiders with torture amps, add two shredders and a homunculus with destructor, tank shock the enemy into tight formation, and annihilate them with templates, and assault the survivors. Mass slave snares in conjunction with mounted raider-squad fire works well too.

Concerning Dark Lances, I prefer to keep them on the Raiders and Warrior squads, and keep disintegrators on the Ravagers. Why? Well, on the Raiders and Warriors, lances are singular. You fire one at a time, and can expend exactly the minimum number required to eliminate the target. Ravagers? You have to fire all three at once. You could have eliminated the target with only one lance, and now the other two are wasted. Leave tank hunting to warriors/raiders, and evaporate heavy infantry or MEQs with mass disintegrator fire.

**kuro_khan**

I'm afraid to use torture amps, because if they decide to go death or glory, they're hitting an open-topped, AV 10 vehicle :-/. But I do appreciate the ability to round people up. I intend to try that with GKs, incinerators and land raiders.

**GCMandrake**

Yeah, Death or Glory can be a problem. It's not a trick to be used on anything with a power fist or high strength weapon. That said, even S4 only has a small chance of stopping a raider, needing a 6 to glance and all. But if the squad has a power fist or any high strength support weapons, stay away.

**Thor665**

Which theoretically includes Orks and their omnipresent power klaws, yes?

I would also say, for our explicit tools to deal with hordes - Disentegrators seem to fit the bill exceedingly nicely as does (which you noted) our exceptional mobility, which allows us to dictate when and where fights happen.

Vs. Horde Orks
1st, take 9 Dissie pie plates, drop them on Loota squads. Kill or break squads.
2nd Fire D. Lances into vehicles - take away Ork mobility
3rd Fire into Bikes and Koptas with Lances, take away mobility and last optimal Raider destroying units
4. ???
5. Profit as he tries to walk after you and you keep shooting him while moving away.

**asugradinwa**

Well I had my first game with dark eldar last night. It was a 2000 point game aggainst Ravenguard. I ended up capturing Shrike!

A couple of things:

1. Sustaned fire seems to do much better then small blast termplates as my scatter rolls were horrible. I'll save the templates for terminators, really bunched up units, and vehicles.

2. It is important to never lose combat with small wyche squads. It'll take some learning as to how many small wych units it takes to bring down different types of squads.

3. I like a wych raider with two blasters moving 6" more then a stationary raider with a raider squad throwing out two dark lance shots a turn.

4. Keeping track of drugs in a wych cult is hard!

**Thor665**

asugradinwa wrote:Well I had my first game with dark eldar last night. It was a 2000 point game aggainst Ravenguard. I ended up capturing Shrike!

Awesome

. There is no way your opponent was pleased at that occurrence. Did he have his Wing with him, and which unit did you do it with?

1. Sustaned fire seems to do much better then small blast termplates as my scatter rolls were horrible. I'll save the templates for terminators, really bunched up units, and vehicles.

This is true depending on what you're shooting at and how spaced out they are. It is a bit situational as to which to go for. The big advantage of the templates is the AP of course, and don't forget what you hit will be a lot easier to wound with Str 7 then Str 4. Sustained fire is pretty awesome versus SMs dumb enough not to be behind cover though. Also, remember, bad scatter rolls are not a good reason to be against a template weapon - 33% of the time it will be dead on target, and with a BS of 4 our average scatter is only about 3 inches - when you place the template keep the 3 inches idea in mind and try to put it where a scatter of that much in any direction won't be too bad for you.

2. It is important to never lose combat with small wyche squads. It'll take some learning as to how many small wych units it takes to bring down different types of squads.

Very much agreed (though locally I am accused of being too lucky making Wych morale checks). Just remember, 5 Wyches (drugs not accounted for) charging into a 10 man tac will only kill roughly 1.5 marines and will take about the same in casualties. Always soften them up a bit with Blaster and splinter pistol fire and try to charge 5 or 6 man squads - with those you ought to be in a better world.

3. I like a wych raider with two blasters moving 6" more then a stationary raider with a raider squad throwing out two dark lance shots a turn.

Depends of course upon what you're shooting and why. The lances will serve you much better if a landraider is rolling around. If you like greater mobility then you might want to shift your mini-Sniper squads into Gunboats (minimized Raider squad w. Blaster and Splinter Cannon in Raider) They move 6" and throw out some good firepower, and their Raider can fire on different targets.

4. Keeping track of drugs in a wych cult is hard!

No doubt. The one fellow I used to see who played them often used different colored bases for each Wych squad and had a similar color highlight on that particular squad's Raider. I'm sure you'll figure out your own method that works well for you. (mine is to not play Wych Cult, but I'm a wuss)

**kuro_khan**

My wyches have different highlights. I use 3 wych squads; red, orange and purple. On the army list, i write down red, orange, purple, and after I roll drugs I write wych drug went to wych which, so I can always just double check.

**asugradinwa**

Thor665 wrote:
asugradinwa wrote:Well I had my first game with dark eldar last night. It was a 2000 point game aggainst Ravenguard. I ended up capturing Shrike!

Awesome . There is no way your opponent was pleased at that occurrence. Did he have his Wing with him, and which unit did you do it with? !

It was a large scrum with 8 Vanguard Vets, Shrike, and 10 assault Marines locked into combat with Lelith, 2 Succubi w/Agonizers, and 12 wyches. Losing a second close combat attack makes assault marines next to useless.

Thor665 wrote:[
4. Keeping track of drugs in a wych cult is hard!

No doubt. The one fellow I used to see who played them often used different colored bases for each Wych squad and had a similar color highlight on that particular squad's Raider. I'm sure you'll figure out your own method that works well for you. (mine is to not play Wych Cult, but I'm a wuss)

I think I'm going to try to do this with different hair colors. The most wych squads I'll have is 7 in play so I'll have to come up with 7 different hair colors that I like.

**Thor665**

Hair color is how I do my own squads usually (though I generally only field 2 at a time) You'll also probably want to do something to each Raider so you can recall which color hair squad is in each Raider (probably just doing the Raider crew tassles/hair in the appropriate color will serve you well.

**Newt-Of-Death**

On the subject of fighting ork hordes;

Ive always wanted to take 4 splinter cannons in a scourge squad, and just jump in behind cover but in range, and riddle them with 16 shots per turn, jumping from cover to cover.

I find the Dark Lances a severe hindrance in scourges, and have in the past refrained from using them.

**Lemartes**

I forgot Scourges were even an option as I haven't seen them fielded in so long. Good advice thru out thisd thread and to the OP it definatley looks like you have the makings of a Wych cult list.